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On 1/23/2020 at 10:06 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

No, it is not true.

JESUS said: He that endures unto the END, the same shall be saved.  There shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, insomuch that, IF it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Which means THOSE SAVED {Elected} after the Rapture, the 1/3 of Zechariah 13:8-9, how do you guys get to know the scriptures brother ? I really don't get how you make bad arguments when the scripture is against you. Its like arguing with a judge you didn't break the 45 mile per hour speed limit when you were doing 75 MPH. You can't win the argument even if you claim you have never seen the sign that says 45. 

On 1/23/2020 at 10:06 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

That is right, it just doesn't register with you. We preach the Gospel unto the ends of the World, THEN the 70th week comes, but we are not in it, there is the 1/3 who REPENT {Wheat who remain with the wicked tares to the end} and the Remnant Church, meaning the ones who come to Christ AFTER the Rapture, I get the "Remnant Church" from Rev. 12:17, I dare anyone to try and prove they are Jews, they CAN'T BE Jews, thus they are the Remnant of THE SEED/Jesus or the Remnant Church and a remnant means a SMALL PART that's left, so that means the Church is not on earth at this time, only the Remnant Church is left on earth. 

The Woman {Israel or the 1/3 who flee which are PROTECTED so the Remnant CAN'T BE HER} flees to Petra. And the Remnant have the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ so it can't be the 2/3 of the Jews who refused to Repent, whom God says will perish, so it has to be the Gentile Church........Its a REMNANT !! Do you get what that means ? 

On 1/23/2020 at 10:06 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should NO FLESH BE SAVED: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

That's right Jesus returning with the Church SHORTENS the Anti-Christs reign to 7 Years, you and others OVERTHINK THIS and try to say God had to change his 7 year plan, NO............God's original plans SHORTENED the Beasts reign to the perfect number via Gods plans !! 

On 1/23/2020 at 10:06 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

And if you read on this means those Jews who fled to Judea who are PROTECTED, its not possible to deceive them because Jesus FOREWARNED them, right here in Matt. 24, BEHOLD...........I come in the Eastern Skies......Not  in a Secret Chamber or the Desert. I have told you BEFOREHAND.

Edited by Revelation Man
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One must also view any verse in the context of the passage it is in.  In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, the departure is referenced as occurring before the man of sin is revealed.  That is supported further in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8.   Every English translation prior to the KJV, and including the Latin Vulgate, state it is a departure, not a falling away or rebellion.   Both verb (aphistemi) and noun (apostasia) require a subject to what is being departed from to determine if it is spatial physical departure or a spiritual departure.  And in verse 3, no subject is provided as to what is being "departed" from, so we have to use the general context of the passage, which is a gathering to the Lord.

For instance, a spatial departure is in view in...

Luke 2:37 (NKJV) and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart [aphistemi, verb form of apostasia] from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

And a spiritual departure is seen here....

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV) Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart [aphistemi, verb form of apostasia]  from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

The only other use of "apostasia", the noun form, in scripture is in Acts 21:21, where the specific object of what is being departed from is mentioned....

Acts 21:21 (NKJV) but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia, noun form] Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

In that context, it is both a spiritual and spatial departure or distancing from Torah.

The idea that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of a spatial "departure" and not a "spiritual departure" or "falling away" or "rebellion" is in keeping with both the grammar and context.  The context is laid out in verse 1, our gathering to the Lord, not our departing from the Lord.

And in conjunction with many prophets in scripture, it is further supported that this is a reference to the removal of the righteous prior to the end time calamities, with the specific in 2 Thessalonians 2 being  before the man of sin / son of perdition / antichrist is revealed.

Where people tend to get confused in equating the coming to gather the righteous in the air to be with the Lord with the coming where the Lord returns with the righteous and sets foot on the earth and vanquishes the enemies coming against Jerusalem.    One is outside the earth, one is on the earth.   One is to gather the righteous, one is coming with the righteous.  Two unique events. 

Also, these Thessalonians had been told thru a forged letter (verse 2) that they were in the Day of the Lord, which is a common reference to the tribulation period.  Probably because of intense persecution these folks were experiencing.  Paul had to allay their fears and remind them that "that day" would not come unless the departure comes first, then the man of sin will be revealed.

Edited by OldCoot
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Agreed, Paul does not give the time of the rapture in 2 Thessalonians.  He merely says that it will happen before the man of sin is revealed.  

Agreed, the "that day" being referenced in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to the aforementioned topic of the passage, the "day of the Lord" from verse 1.   But likewise, verse 1 is also talking about the gathering or rapture as part of that.

So I guess one could say that the rapture does precede the "day of the Lord", but the trigger that starts that period is the affirming of the covenant of Daniel 9:27, which many feel is done by the man of sin / son of perdition / antichrist.   And 2 Thessalonians is pretty clear that the departure or removal must occur first, then the man of sin is revealed.   Likewise in the same passage, it says that He who restrains is taken out of the way, then the Lawless One (same guy) will be revealed.  The only thing that can restrain evil is the Holy Spirit.  And the redeemed are sealed by the Holy Spirit.  So if He is taken out of the way, so are the redeemed that He is sealing.

And Isaiah 26.. front to back... is pretty clear on the timing.  Right out of the starting gate, there is a tie in with Revelation 4:1....

Isaiah 26:2 (NKJV) Open the gates, That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.

Revelation 4:1 (NKJV) After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."

the Hebrew and the Greek have equivalent meanings.  And the "righteous nation" is a tie to 1 Peter 2:9, which likewise is a tie back got Revelation 5:10 regarding the 24 Elders, which has its own tie to 1 Chronicles 24 where David established the 24 courses of the Priests.

further down, Isaiah ties this happening at the start of the birth pains, which ties into Jeremiah 30:6-7....

Isaiah 26:17 (NKJV) As a woman with child is in pain and cries out in her pangs, when she draws near the time of her delivery, so have we been in Your sight, O Lord.

Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;

And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

And there is the tie in to Matthew 24 Olivet discourse regarding no day being like it.

And later in the passage, the dead are resurrected and the righteous are told to come and enter their chambers which is a tie in to John 14 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.....

Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Which also ties into Zephaniah 2:3...

Zephaniah 2:3 (NKJV Strong's) Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

Cliff

 

 

Edited by OldCoot
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On 1/23/2020 at 8:51 AM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

The late, brilliant Bible Teacher, Dr.Gene Scott used to say this frequently. Is this the Paster that you were referring to?

Actually yes. Gene Scott was quite brilliant, but a bit of a kook in terms of his presentation and antics sometimes. I do not recall what his eschatological positing was, but from that quote, it is clear that he did not expect that the life of a Christian, would be easy sailing.

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20 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Actually yes. Gene Scott was quite brilliant, but a bit of a kook in terms of his presentation and antics sometimes. I do not recall what his eschatological positing was, but from that quote, it is clear that he did not expect that the life of a Christian, would be easy sailing.

Scott knew that Christianity was a Walk Of Faith—Faith That was tested....tried in the Fire....all for the purpose of “ exercising Faith muscles”and “training us up”  so that we would eventually become Men and Women Of Faith That would  be as strong in their Faith as Paul was .Paul got to the point that “ he wanted for nothing.” He did not care if he was rich or poor....he did not care if he was hot or cold.....he did not care if he was in prison or out of prison ......he was CONTENT in whatever the situation.This is where God wants us to wind up. To see this Faith in His Children is more valuable to Him than Gold.The Sin Issue was resolved at the Cross— what God is looking for is Faith! Scott understood that and his goal was to see people increase in their  Trusting of the Promises Of God. “The Righteous shall “ LIVE” by Faith.” Scott always said one “ did not have to change to be a member of his church” He also added though—- “ You Don’t have to change to come here-  But watch out! If you start practicing Faith, God Just might CHANGE you! Good advice.....it worked for me.I started Believing and Acting on the Promises Of God Way back in 1983– Nothing has been the same since....Scott was definitely on to something......

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20 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

But because he didnt, but instead says that the apostasia must take place first (instead of 'his coming '),  this means that the apostasia IS NOT the rapture,  but is referring to some other event besides the rapture, that takes place BEFORE the Day of Christ.   With all that said,   I still have no problem translating apostasia as departure BECAUSE it is not referring to the departure of the church, aka the rapture.    This is because Paul is explaining the timing of the day of Christ and not the timing of the rapture.   When it says,  "... THAT DAY shall not come...", I hope you can understand what I'm saying.   "That day" is referring to the revelation of the man of sin, aka the day of Christ,  and is not referring to the rapture or the gathering together (depending on whether you view coming & gathering as one event or two different events).

 

Just the opposite, it means the apostisia {DEPARTURE} of the Church {pointing BACK UNTO the Gathering unto Christ in the very first verse} must come to pass BEFORE the Day of the Lord {Sixth Seal is opened} on day 1261 which lasts until Jesus' Return on day 2520. 

So The Church Departs AND the Anti-Christ ARRIVES both BEFORE the Day of the Lord via the 6th Seal. Meanwhile the 6th Seal s opened on day 1261 also,  but the Beast is allowed to go forth first at the First Seal. Thus he is REVEALED before the Sixth Seal is opened.

 

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