Trinity Posted July 20, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,244 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 63 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2005 Wouldn't this fall under "Perseverance of the Saints," in the Calvin vs. Arminius debate? There are also a couple of other threads on this subject. Honestly.....How many threads do we need on this subject. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Honestly..... I agree, these threads always cause even more division... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted July 20, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted July 20, 2005 I believe you can never lose your salvation, I do think however you can reject it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How is that any different? I mean, seriously, isn't that like splitting hairs? One view says, "Your actions (sins) will cause you to lose your salvation." Which is really just saying one of two things, possibly: A) Your sin will cause your salvation to be compromised, lost, dissipated, etc., or B) God will take your salvation away because of your sin. Another view says, "Your actions - Your "walking away" from God and returning to your former manner of life (your sins) - will cause you to lose your salvation. The same two possibilities apply in both situations. Ultimately what you are left with arguing for or against are the two opposed positions of Calvin and Arminius. John Calvin argued that salvation can neither be lost or rejected because it is based solely upon the work of Christ. Jacob Arminius argued that a life lived by faith must be maintained, otherwise the believer's eternal position would be compromised. Boiled-down it eventually comes to faith vs. works. How long is this road? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted July 20, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2005 Well I lost it for a bit until I realized that I put it the cabinet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc49 Posted July 20, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 82 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 498 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/10/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/25/1949 Share Posted July 20, 2005 I do not believe that salvation can be lost. However, it is very possible to lose your joy. One of the best ways to lose your joy is to begin to wonder about losing your salvation. First you wonder if you can. Then you worry if maybe you might be losing it. Then you begin to doubt that you ever had it in the first place. Instead of indulging in these distructive and unproductive thoughts, keep focused on Jesus and on the Lord's plan for your life. Stay in the middle of His grace instead of wandering out to the edge where the world awaits to distract you. Give the Lord more room and time in your life than you allow the devil to have, and the question of losing your salvation will not have to be addressed at all. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I say Amen to that! Personally i believe that I cannot lose something that I didn't work for or earned or that I could ever attain in my human efforts or endeavours. I firmly believe that everyone is lost and that there is no way out from being lost but believing in God's answer to the problem:"THE LORD JESUS CHRIST". In fact i believe that JESUS IS THE ANSWER to everything and everybody. Reading the gospels i see The father saying that Jesus is His beloved Son in Whom He is WELL PLEASED and that we MUST listen to HIM,Jesus Himself being 100% God and 100% Man calls us TO FOLLOW HIM and not some form of religion or ritual or ceremony or system. The Holy Spirit drove me to JESUS to receive THE GIFT of HIMSELF and ETERNAL LIFE..so how in the world I could turn from JESUS?unless I am mad and...even if I get confused( and I do ) or sometimes sad or depressed or go through tough times and circumstances,even if I get to a place of despair and loss like the time I am now,well,I might loose the grip of HIS HAND,BUT....PRAISE BE TO GOD,HE NEVER LEAVES ME neither FORSAKES ME,because HE BOUGHT ME with HIS BLOOD and I cannot think of anything more PRECIOUSand COSTLY than HIS BLOOD...so I really think that GOD values immensely HIS SON and whoever is IN THE SON,THE BELOVED. It is because of HIM that we can have COMMUNION/FELLOWSHIP with THE FATHER and we receive THE SPIRIT...from Genesis to revelation I see GOD/FATHER,SON,HOLY SPIRIT, as THE CENTER of THE MESSAGE and that everything is to HIS GLORY,so I really DO NOT WORRY about LOSING SALVATION,HE SAVED ME ETERNALLY,HE IS ABLE to KEEP ME TO THE END and FOR EVER MORE...I'm looking for the DAY when finally the "pilgrimage" will be over and I'll have THE IMMENSE JOY to SEE HIM FACE to FACE so I just chuck myself in HIS ARMS of LOVE,GRACE and MERCY and PRAISEEEEEEEEEEEEEE THE LORD SHALOM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halifaxchristian Posted July 20, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 722 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 Seeking to increase one's knowledge in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is something we as Christians are commanded to do in Scripture. Any believers that find this uncomfortable because it causes "division" are taking the easy way out. A true seeker finds. I believe that the Calvin/Armenian debate needs an answer...if, of course, you actually want to know more about our Lord. This topic has ramifications. Big ones. I, for one, was tormented by Satan over this issue again and again. If anyone wants a serious discussion, I am all for it. But I don't detect this yet. I'll just keep waiting for a God-send. Thanks. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted July 20, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Seeking to increase one's knowledge in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is something we as Christians are commanded to do in Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted July 20, 2005 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Well spoken Ovedya. Right on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted July 20, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted July 20, 2005 I believe you can never lose your salvation, I do think however you can reject it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How is that any different? I mean, seriously, isn't that like splitting hairs? One view says, "Your actions (sins) will cause you to lose your salvation." Which is really just saying one of two things, possibly: A) Your sin will cause your salvation to be compromised, lost, dissipated, etc., or B) God will take your salvation away because of your sin. Another view says, "Your actions - Your "walking away" from God and returning to your former manner of life (your sins) - will cause you to lose your salvation. The same two possibilities apply in both situations. Ultimately what you are left with arguing for or against are the two opposed positions of Calvin and Arminius. John Calvin argued that salvation can neither be lost or rejected because it is based solely upon the work of Christ. Jacob Arminius argued that a life lived by faith must be maintained, otherwise the believer's eternal position would be compromised. Boiled-down it eventually comes to faith vs. works. How long is this road? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was probably not clear. I would be more toward Calvin. What I meant was that we cannot decide by ourselves to be saved, even the decision if we want to call it that to accept Christ is the work of the Holy Spirit. However to push the Holy Spirit away indeed is our decision, this cannot happen to someone who has true faith and thus true salvation though. So salvation cannot be lost, but it can be rejected when offered by Christ. Can people lose their faith? I have no idea except that for a believer it is not worth worrying about. I would look toward the parable of the sower though and try to understand what is going on there. Obviously Christ told of people who thought they were saved or initially thought they were believers but the weeds or the poor soil eventually drowned out their faith. It is kind of a chicken and egg thing though and might cause unneeded division among us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khristeeanos Posted July 21, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 109 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,278 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 29 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/07/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2005 I think that if you are looking for a definative answer to the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, you are going to be waiting for a long time. This issue has not been clearly resolved for the past 386 years. I hardly think that we can solve it here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I bolded the following: the past 386 years for a reason. The original church did not disagree on this issue. Yet today followers of Christ disagree. That means that somewhere along the way, someone introduced false doctrine into the church. During my studies, I found that only Augustine taught Calvinism before John Calvin. If you go to any of the websites that contain the Early Church Father's writings, you will see clearly that they taught a conditional security and yet didn't think it was a works-based salvation. The reason people disagree on this is because the securists refuse to believe the truth. They are unwilling to admit that the Bible teaches a clear salvation message. Just because God does His part, does that mean we don't have to do ours? Whatever happened to salvation by FAITH? People don't understand what faith is anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipit Posted July 21, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 247 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/17/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/10/1981 Share Posted July 21, 2005 (edited) Kinda off topic... but really important: Charles Spurgeon, the Prince of Preachers, said "If you have no desire to see others saved, then you are not saved yourself." I agree. I think instead of all of us endlessly debating around in circles and wasting time on if we can lose our salvation or not (bringing up the same questions and come backs that are posted in other threads at Worthyboards), that we should instead be seeking to witness and bring the gospel to those who do not know or have not yet received it... ...I think that would be a good idea...hopefully you would agree. Edited July 21, 2005 by Pipit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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