Tongues?

[Paul James]

1 minute ago, Duck said:

Aah well I believe the apostles spoke other languages, as listed in acts.

They spoke all kinds of languages they had never learned.  The crowd who heard the languages knew that because they knew that the speakers were "uneducated Galileans" and could not have learned all the languages they spoke.

Here's a good, true story:

Early in the 20th Century a well-known pastor needed a rest and was invited to stay at the home of a well-known Pentecostal international preacher.  When the pastor arrived in the city he went to the local YMCA and sought directions to the home of the preacher.  They told him to be very careful because he was one of these Pentecostals who are of the devil and if he was not careful he could get a demon.  So the pastor visited the house and decided to talk and talk so he did not have to hear anything that might harm him.  There was to be a meeting in the home, and when everyone arrived the room was packed.  Then two young ladies started the prayer time by praying in tongues.  Suddenly the pastor sat bolt upright, went to the first young lady and then to the other.  Then he asked to go to his room.   The next morning he explained to the preacher that he was warned about "these Pentecostals" and to be on his guard.  The preacher realised that the pastor was totally unbelieving concerning the baptism with the Spirit and speaking in tongues. The pastor went on to explain that he went to his room, got on his knees before God and was baptised with the Spirit!  The preacher asked him what changed his mind.  The pastor said that he was fluent in Greek and Hebrew, and when the first lady prayed in tongues, the Holy Spirit spoke to him in Greek, "Get right with God!"  And when he went the second lady who spoke in Hebrew, "Get right with God".  He knew that he just had to go to his room to get right with God.  That he did, and was baptised with the Spirit and received the gift of tongues.   That was how the Holy Spirit dealt with his unbelief.

So, the Holy Spirit is well capable of speaking Greek and Hebrew through two young ladies who had never learned those languages.

[Waggles]

Evidence - proof - certainty 

these signs shall follow them that believe the gospel 

13  Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed. 
14  Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 
15  who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 
16  for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 
17  Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 

Acts 8: and what was the evidence that believers had now received the Holy Spirit?

2  And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 
3  And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 
4  And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 
5  On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 
6  And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 
7  There were about twelve men in all. 

Acts 19:

believe the scriptures for they are the words of life.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Waggles

[Paul James]

14 minutes ago, Duck said:

I believe that Paul spoke in tongues, but it’s not mentioned in the passage on his baptism.

Luke had already outlined on two occasions the results when people are baptised with the Spirit.  He didn't have to repeat every detail and assumed that his readers would naturally assume that Paul received the Holy Spirit in the same manner as all the others who spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

[SwordMaster]

3 hours ago, Waggles said:

On 1/27/2021 at 3:35 PM, enoob57 said:

God says no where in Scripture that His Word plus anything else.

Quite incorrect and untrue ... 

 

Yes indeed! When examining Scripture to ensure that one comes to the intended meaning of a text, one must take historical and cultural things into consideration also, and failing to do so has caused numerous people to start their own false teachings. 

For example, both calvin and luther failed to take these two factors into consideration when reading Paul's writings on law and righteousness, and especially luther, read those passages out of his own personal battles, reading into Paul's writings the teachings of his day from the RCC, thus perverting the meaning of Paul's words.

No where in Scripture do we find the nonsense of Scripture alone, because God was smart enough to know that some things would be lost to the church over time, just as it has been, such as certain historical things and accurate knowledge and understanding of Ancient Near Eastern covenants and their principles of operation. These became completely lost to the church when it became predominantly gentile in gentile cultures that didn't have covenants.

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[enoob57]

3 hours ago, Paul James said:

The Holy Spirit told me directly that he did speak in tongues.  This is because he was baptised with the Spirit in the same way as the others did on the day of Pentecost.  Therefore he spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave him utterance, and he continued praying in tongues until the day he died.

This is what charismatic persuasion does in fruit bearing: it takes the objective truth of God's inspired Scripture and adds subjective god told me and places this in the same authority as the written text. Notice god told me outside of the Scripture is no where found in God's precious Word yet it doesn't matter because authority has shifted from God's Word to subjective experience of man and this is the fruit of such and it is error!  

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, SwordMaster said:

and understanding of Ancient Near Eastern covenants and their principles of operation.

Has someone been reading Michael Heiser, et al?

A book I am keen to purchase is:

Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament: Introducing the Conceptual World of the Hebrew Bible (2nd Edition)  by John H Walton

Edited January 29, 2021 by Waggles
additions

[SwordMaster]

1 hour ago, Waggles said:

Has someone been reading Michael Heiser, et al?

A book I am keen to purchase is:

Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament: Introducing the Conceptual World of the Hebrew Bible (2nd Edition)  by John H Walton

 

For my doctoral dissertation, which was on ancient near eastern covenants and how the affect interpretation of Scripture, I read many...Trumbull, Black, Gehman, Dahl, Mendenhall, Brown, Freedman, and many others.

Blessings!

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[Paul James]

5 hours ago, enoob57 said:

This is what charismatic persuasion does in fruit bearing: it takes the objective truth of God's inspired Scripture and adds subjective god told me and places this in the same authority as the written text. Notice god told me outside of the Scripture is no where found in God's precious Word yet it doesn't matter because authority has shifted from God's Word to subjective experience of man and this is the fruit of such and it is error!  

I am not a Charismatic.  I am a Presbyterian.  I don't care what happens in the Charismatic movement.  I care what the Holy Spirit makes known to me.  He does not say anything to me that is not consistent with written Scripture.

But I don't read into Scripture that is not there.   Nowhere does the Scripture say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including the gift of tongues is limited to the Apostolic Age, and the Scripture makes no mention of a future canon of Scripture.  To say that the Perfect is the canon of Scripture is based on eisegesis - reading things into Scripture that are not there.

In actual fact, your Cessationist view is your own subjective view based on what you have been taught, and is nowhere supported by Scripture at all.  Cessationist doctrine was coined by a liberal theologian in the 19th Century who heard non-Biblical voices in his mind, ignoring clear Church history that shows without doubt that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit declined when the church adopted paganism and turned from holiness and Christ-centred religious observance and replaced the reality of the Holy Spirit with the authority of self-appointed bishops, and paganistic ritual and ceremony.

[Buddy D. Mouse]

1 hour ago, Paul James said:

To say that the Perfect is the canon of Scripture is based on eisegesis - reading things into Scripture that are not there.

Certainly true, Paul James.

In college I was a regular at a Coffeehouse where the Director was a Cessationist. A couple of others and I were Charismatics - I use the term usually referring to those who stayed within their own denomination after recieving the gift of Tongues rather than joing a Pentecostal denomination, or Assembly of God. Anyway, myself and two other charismatics had given our word to the Director that in witnessing to those  in the coffeehouse that we would NOT get into the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. But the director wanted more than our word NOT to teach the Baptism - he wanted us to swallow the deal that THE PERFECT was the finished New Testament.

The Director had just obtained a LEATHER BIBLE COVER and was showing it to everyone - a grand thing - 3 little belt loop thingies kept it fastened - everyone ooohed and ahhed over the special Bible cover...

We were in a Staff Meeting prior to the coffeehouse being open to those from the outside - the Director seemed determined to get across to ME that THE PERFECT was the Bible.

"And what came when Tongues PASSED AWAY?" ( he was about to RAM IT HOME ) 

"THIS!!" He shouted - shoving his bible in my face...

Rick sitting next to me quickly quipped "What? Your Leather Bible Cover?" and my shoulders shook with suppressed laughter as the staff meeting was quickly dismissed without prayer. Rick, myself and one other charismatic somehow made it upstairs to a study room and just FELL ABOUT THE PLACE, dying laughing. We tried to straighten up - in a few minutes the people would come in to the coffeehouse - we were laughing so hard that tears rolled down our cheeks and splashed onto our shirts. Just when we were almost normal, someone made a gesture like the Director shoving his bible in my face, and saying THE PERFECT!

I never laughed so hard in my life.

[Duck]

1 hour ago, Paul James said:

I don't read into Scripture that is not there.

But you did. Pauls baptism in acts doesn’t mention him speaking in tongues.