Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[truth7t7]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

I didn't state, I asked the question:

 

70 literal weeks is a year and 5 months; 3.5 years would be 180 weeks. 

So I don't understand what you mean here.

I don't follow the teachings of occultist "Sir Isaac Newton" 1726AD and his interpretation of Daniel's 70 weeks being 490 years as many believe and teach

Once again, a "Future" command will go out to build Jerusalem's wall/street this starts the clock on the 70 "literal weeks"

70 "literal weeks" later the antichrist is revealed in Jerusalem, as a future abomination of desolation takes place as armies surround the city, the 70 "literal weeks" are now "completed" and the "Future" 3.5 year tribulation starts

I have explained this in elementary language, you might not agree, but it's simple and very easy to understand 

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Edited August 3, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yeah. That's what I'm saying. The aorist is active in Rev 6:17 so the action is happening or set to happen. The active aorist is not a past tense. The same tense is used in Rev 11:18, also active aorist, also about to happen, not a past tense.

So then if both Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 use the same mood and tense of the verb 'erchomai', and they do, then both signify an action at the occurrence or just about to occur. This only supports my finding that the one and only time wrath occurs it's coming about with a conjunction of the 6th seal and 7th trump or, wrath begins twice. 

I don't see wrath beginning twice in scripture. The one time wrath begins it's at the time when the 6th seal and the 7th trump coincide, a nexus of the two, a conjunction not simultaneous but concurrent at a time and space moment on the continuum of the timeline at the end of the age.

And wrath only comes at the very end of the last week, a period of months and perhaps as long as a year. From Matt 24 it's the A of D, then GT[which days are ct short], then the sign of His coming, the nations mourn, then they see Him arrive, then the gathering; after which wrath can be meted out. All in a 3 1/2 year time period.

Revelation 11:15-18 is (The End)

(Final Judgement)

Revelation 11:18KJV

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[not an echo]

On 7/30/2022 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

On 7/29/2022 at 10:14 PM, not an echo said:

The only "gap" that comes after the opening of the last seal is the gap of silence that John speaks of that precedes what he saw next.  It has become an increasingly curious thing for me that you keep saying what you do about gap filling.  Seems to me that for your position, you presume to take away what is there and to fill a gap, that you make, with something else---do you not?

I'm not filling any thing. All I see is silence at the 7th seal. I have speculated what that is. I have related what others have said about it. I don't know as that's literally all there is. 

If I am to believe what was said of the 6 previous seals is the truth of God breathed prophecy then I have to trust in that of the 7th seal. It's only certain epistemologies that require something other than what is said of the 7th seal to emanate from the 7th seal, I do not. 

What must be at the 7th seal beyond silence no one can say with any accuracy. I won't ever add the trumps at this point because I don't see it in the language. 

Hello Diaste,

Kinda picking up where I had to leave off.  Why do you not see the silence after the opening of the last seal as an anticipatory pause?  And, concerning your last sentence, whereas you say you "won't ever add the trumps" beyond the "silence" of the 7th Seal, you are, however, ready to intermingle all of them in some way with the rest of the seals, are you not?

According to your position, if you have the 7th Trumpet being blown successive/concurrent with the opening of the 6th Seal, do you then also believe that the 6th Seal is opened at the end of the period heralded by the 6th Trumpet---right before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet?

On 7/30/2022 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

On 7/29/2022 at 10:14 PM, not an echo said:

IMO, you are overthinking it Diaste, and so much so that you are not seeing what is right in front of your face.  Consider the evolutionist, whose rejection of God is go great, that even when he looks at himself in a mirror, he is unable to see that what he is looking at couldn't have evolved from lifeless muck.  So, he overthinks lifeless muck, till he can see it become an omoeba, then a mudpuppy, then a monkey, then a man.  I know you have a great distaste for the common pre-trib view.  But, that does't mean it is totally wrong.  The core belief of the view is scripturally solid.  Like the once-upon-a-time belief of some that man could fly in a machine that was heavier than air.  Notwithstanding the critics who said it couldn't be done---and the failed attempts---the core belief remained solid.

Don't forget it was drilled into me by every pretrib author the bowls followed the trumps which followed the seals. It's not any different than what you are saying in this conversation. Differently nuanced, essentials unchanged. 

So does it muck about with a personal perception of order that bowls can only follow trumps and trumps can only follow seals? 

If I'm at an outdoor sporting event and the final whistle sounds ending the game, and I immediately look up and see a plane in the sky I don't assume the final whistle or the end of game caused the plane to appear.

That's what interpreting Rev 8:2 as the immediate follow up to Rev 8:1 looks like to me. 

Concerning your illustration in your third paragraph, I can't imagine that anyone else would assume what you say either!  We have to be careful with our illustrations, or parables (Pro. 26:7).  Me, if I'm at an outdoor sporting event and the final whistle sounds ending the game, and I immediately look up and see a plane in the sky, it goes without saying that that is the next thing that catches my attention.

Hmmm.  That's what interpreting Rev 8:2 as the immediate follow up to Rev 8:1 looks like to me.

Sorry about being a little bit of an echo.  (Orange = my echoing of you.  Hey, I can see myself getting better at this.)

On 7/30/2022 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

On 7/29/2022 at 10:14 PM, not an echo said:

About every book I have ever seen that has writing on the back side has had much more writing within.  If John writes for us an account of what he sees and what happens after each seal of the Seven Sealed Book is opened, on the basis of what logic would we suppose that he would stop writing an account of what he sees and what happens after the book is finally unsealed? 

As is your manner you argue from ignorance and gap fill. The seventh seal is silence. What fills the silence? It can't be trumps sounding, that wouldn't be silence. John doesn't say the angels were given the trumps during the silence. John doesn't say the angels prepared to sound during the silence. 

You say, "The seventh seal is silence."  John says, "And when He had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in Heaven..."  Again, this is a very understandable anticipatory pause.

You ask, "What fills the silence?"  And then you state, "It can't be trumps sounding, that wouldn't be silence."  When have I ever suggested that the trumpets would be sounding during the silence?  Are you really paying attention to how you are replying?  A prerequisite to the angels even sounding the trumpets was that they be given the trumpets.  As can be seen, this happens after the silence as well.

On 7/30/2022 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

On 7/29/2022 at 10:14 PM, not an echo said:

Proportionally, what we find written after the last seal is removed is on the order of what could be expected.  Further, if John does not begin writing about what he saw take place after the last seal was opened, where is it that he begins with this?  Somewhere in chapter 9?  Or 10?  Or where?

See? You expect. You should listen. Trust is better than striving. 

I would say to you, See?  You reject.  You should listen.  Trust is better than striving.

Sorry about being a bit of an echo again.  I don't know what has started coming over me.

On 7/30/2022 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

I'm not adamant about a perfect chronology of Revelation, there is so much going on and not always enough info to pin down every moment. Some things can be known, others cannot. 

I would recommend that you again consider the opening post (and the whole) of my thread, The Chronological Order of the Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).  One of these days, I need to get back over there and do some more work.  Also, I have yet to see the need to change anything that I have presented there.  But, I suppose there will always be a need to explain further and clarify.

Edited May 30, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Kinda picking up where I had to leave off.  Why do you not see the silence after the opening of the last seal as an anticipatory pause? 

I do. I just am not yet clear on what it's for since I can't find a logical continuation I can prove. However, if it's the case the 7th trump is the last trump[surely it is] and it's the trump when and where the mystery of God is finished[it is. Rev 10:7] then all I see left are the bowls wrath.

This would fit with what others have proposed about the 1/2 hour being a moment of deep contemplation for what's about to come, a moment to reflect on the finality of what wrath means; it's far beyond just vengeance, souls are condemned for eternity. That's not a small thing considering many millions will be forever trapped in the lake of fire. 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

And, concerning your last sentence, whereas you say you "won't ever add the trumps" beyond the "silence" of the 7th Seal, you are, however, ready to intermingle all of them in some way with the rest of the seals, are you not?

Yes. But that's based on evidence I find. I find it to be solid evidence and a proper conclusion.

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

According to your position, if you have the 7th Trumpet being blown successive/concurrent with the opening of the 6th Seal, do you then also believe that the 6th Seal is opened at the end of the period heralded by the 6th Trumpet---right before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet?

I don't really see how it all shakes out before the 6th seal and the 7th trump. I can make some guesses but it's just guesses. If I had to guess about the 6th trump and the army of 200 million I would it's preparatory for the 6th bowl. Some massive army is gathered, with a cavalry astride chimeras. The 6th trump doesn't say they are on the march nor that their power is unleashed at that moment. 

My guess it the 6th trump releases the angels to gather the army, an army that perhaps masses at the western banks of the Euphrates, and this army waits for the Euphrates to dry up before they can continue their march.

But I don't know for sure. Others think a bit differently about it. I don't have enough info for a solid conclusion.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

You ask, "What fills the silence?"  And then you state, "It can't be trumps sounding, that wouldn't be silence."  When have I ever suggested that the trumpets would be sounding during the silence?  Are you really paying attention to how you are replying?  A prerequisite to the angels even sounding the trumpets was that they be given the trumpets.  As can be seen, this happens after the silence as well.

As you know this is where the dispute is. I cannot conclude "And I saw.." suggests an action immediately following a previous action when in the same chapter I see language that requires a succession, to wit:

And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, 

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, 

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet,

12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, 

Clearly the 1st-4th trumps follow each other in order. And all four follow the prep to sound. "And the 7 angels prepared to sound...THEN the 1st angel..."

So why doesn't language like this exist in Rev 8:1-2 when it's obvious John knew the correct language to use for succession. He wrote it in Rev 8:7-12. 

I'll tell you why. It's because John wrote what he saw. John saw a succession in Rev 8:7-12 but did not see one in Rev 8:1-2. If he did he would have said "Then I saw 7 angels were given 7 trumps which they began to sound." or something similar.

This was never meant to be a succession, it's an observation. John also saw the 7 angels who stand before God, not a post hoc type of action. 

post hoc: [adjective] relating to or being the fallacy of arguing from temporal sequence to a causal relation.

 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

I would say to you, See?  You reject.  You should listen.  Trust is better than striving.

Sorry about being a bit of an echo again.  I don't know what has started coming over me.

Not a refutation, whataboutism. I don't know how you approach the prophecy of Revelation but I find it difficult enough to simply listen to the words and understand what is being related. If I begin to place personal expectation on top of what I read, or as the underlying motive for a search, then I don't hear the written word with the accuracy required. 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

I would recommend that you again consider the opening post (and the whole) of my thread, The Chronological Order of the Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).  One of these days, I need to get back over there and do some more work.  Also, I have yet to see the need to change anything that I have presented there.  But, I suppose there will always be a need to explain further and clarify.

I looked at it. You know I did. 

[JoeCanada]

Regarding...."The silence when He opened the 7th seal"

Could it be that Jesus just "left the building?"

Look at Psa 65:1-4:

There will be silence before You, and praise in Zion, O God,
And to You the vow will be performed.
O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.
Iniquities prevail against me;
As for our transgressions, You forgive them.
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.

Perhaps.....

This is the actual moment (the 1/2 hour) when Jesus descends and brings the saints home.

The 6th seal does not mention the rapture. 

 

 

[not an echo]

On 7/30/2022 at 10:44 AM, Retrobyter said:

On 7/30/2022 at 12:23 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your opening paragraph, my understanding is very similar, perhaps even the same.  The "New Jerusalem and the New Earth (with its New Sky)" is all in God's Heaven.  Ain't no telling how big our Father's Heaven is!  Interestingly, the further that astronomers are able to look in our present universe, the further it goes.  And, some are even saying that it may go on forever!  Well, our Father can certainly make enough room for however many forevers He would like to have!

It's SO ironic! We SAY the same things, but we PICTURE something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT! When you say "The New Jerusalem and the New Earth (with its New Sky)," you see them in "our Father's Heaven!" You've spoken about looking off into the "present universe," stating that "it may go on forever!" And, you conclude "our Father can certainly make enough room for however many forevers He would like to have!"

When I say, "The New Jerusalem and the New Earth (with its New Sky)," I'm talking about the planet Earth being re-made! It will be similar to this present Earth in size and composition, but it will be more like the planet Earth immediately after the Creation before the Flood occurred! We'll have a "scrubbed-clean atmosphere" for a New Sky, and there will be no more pollution. The plant life will be restored, and the animals will be prolific once again with the animals attaining sizes that will be comparable to those before the Flood. I FULLY expect to ride a Triceratops (a Jackson's or Johnston's chameleon) someday!

Hello Retrobyter,

While I certainly like to talk about Heaven, I've got to also be mindful of trying to stay on topic with my thread.  That being said, I do have a couple of thoughts that I would like to leave with you!  In your second paragraph, concerning the New Earth, you make the statement, "It will be similar to this present Earth in size and composition..."  When we think of this first Earth and the New Earth, I believe it is helpful to think in terms of the first things compared to the new things.  What do I mean?  Like, the first cars compared to the new cars.  For example, like the Model A compared to the new Mustang Shelby GT500!  Or, think of the first ships, compared to a Carnival cruise ship, or the first airplane, compared to the Boeing 777.  Then, consider what we know concerning the first Jerusalem, compared to what John recorded concerning the New Jerusalem!  I think of those gates, made of pearl, and "every several gate was of one pearl" (Rev. 21:21).  I'm thinking, "Man, how big must the oysters be in Heaven that can produce a pearl that size!  My mind goes to what Paul said in Ephesians 3...

20 Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21 Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Hey, and I think you are right on with your last sentence, if that's what you'd like to do.  During Christ's Millennial Reign, I want to go out and sit on one of Saturn's rings and look at Earth from there!  I certainly believe that we will be completely unhindered from checking out our Father's world---and to our heart's desire!  

On 7/30/2022 at 10:44 AM, Retrobyter said:

On 7/30/2022 at 12:23 AM, not an echo said:

(I haven't got to use this little guy in a while!  My computer took a notion to lock up on me a couple of times lately, and it locked up good bad last night.  I decided to reboot and try deleting all my cookies and cache, and now I'm back in business---so far anyway.  I saw some time back where George recommended doing this for the emojis to work, but I just never got around to it.  Then it got to where I didn't have a choice.  Ugh.)

Concerning your second paragraph, glad to hear you say it.  I have referred to this in some of my messages as "The Forgotten Millennium."  I don't know what all you believe Retrobyter.  But, if it interests you concerning what I believe, I go into this somewhat in my testimony tread titled My Testimony and More (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/).  I also say somewhat concerning some important elements of Christ's Millennial Kingdom that all of us should remain mindful of.  Do you have a thread of your testimony (or something that would include your beliefs) on the forum?

Actually, no. I don't have a thread on my beliefs. I'm kinda afraid to start one. To make such a statement of my beliefs is to suggest that they're "locked in stone!" YHWH God, through His Ruwach haQodesh, has been teaching me more and more, even today! God did a MAJOR OVERHAUL on my belief system when I was in my second year of Bible college.

However, maybe I can make a TENTATIVE statement of my beliefs, with the disclaimer that they are subject to change. The changes of late are WITHIN the fabric of my belief system as it is today; so, perhaps I can, at this point in my life (age 64), say what I believe now and how God has worked with me to this point.

Concerning your last sentence, I grinned when I saw your age.  I'm presently 64 too---born December 10, 1957.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I didn't state, I asked the question:

 

70 literal weeks is a year and 5 months; 3.5 years would be 180 weeks. 

So I don't understand what you mean here.

Shalom, @Diaste and @truth7t7.

Perhaps the dilemma could be solved by simply acknowledging that the "tribulation period" is NOT "7 years long!"

It's been the conclusion of pre-trib, post-trib, and pre-wrath alike, that the 70th Week of Daniel 9's 70 Weeks of Years IS THE SAME AS the "tribulation."

But, what would it do to your scenarios to realize that the tribulation is not in the 70 Weeks of years AT ALL?

I've been saying this for a while now, but what if the "tribulation period" is "great" because of HOW LONG and WIDE ENCOMPASSING it is?

Everyone uses Matthew 24:4-31 in the Olivet Discourse as the basis for the timing of the End Times. They may supplement it with Mark 13:55-27 and Luke 21:8-28, but most will highlight Matthew's account.

So, let's look at Matthew 24:4-31:

Matthew 24:4-31 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying,

"'I am Christ';

"and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (Greek: τότε παραδώσουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς θλῖψιν, καὶ ἀποκτενοῦσιν ὑμᾶς· καὶ ἔσεσθε μισούμενοι ὑπὸ πάντων τῶν ἐθνῶν διὰ τὸ ὄνομά μου. = "Then they-shall-deliver you into tribulation, and they-will-kill you; and you-shall-be hated under all the nations through the name of-me.") 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 "When ye therefore shall see (Greek: ideete = "ye shall see," 2nd person plural)  the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (Greek: προσεύχεσθε δὲ ἵνα μὴ γένηται ἡ φυγὴ ὑμῶν χειμῶνος, μηδὲ ἐν σαββάτῳ. = "Pray-ye [2nd person plural] but so-that not might-be the flight of-you [plural] in-winter nor on Shabbat:") 21 For then shall be great tribulation, (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure; persecution") such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days (of persecution) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days (of persecution) shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you (Greek: Tote ean tis humin eipee = "Then if anyone to-you [plural] says"),

"'Lo, here is Christ!', or

"'there [He is]!';

"believe it not! 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before[hand]!

26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you,

"'Behold, he is in the desert!';

"go not forth!:

"'behold, he is in the secret chambers!';

"believe it not! 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation (Greek: Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin, accusative of thlipsis meaning "Immediately but after the pressure/persecution") of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The Greek word "thlipsis" θλῖψις ("tribulation") is found THREE places in this short passage of Scripture, and they are all related. The first occurrence, however, was written "TO HIS DISCIPLES" sitting there on the Mount of Olives with  the word "humas," meaning "you" plural!

The second occurrence was also addressed to His Disciples, for in the verses just prior (verse 20) and after (verse 23), Yeshua` speaks to them DIRECTLY (with the words humoon and humin)!                                       

HOWEVER, the third occurrence, verse 29, hasn't happened, yet! It will happen sometime in OUR future!

Yeshua` tells them,

1. MANY shall come in my name, saying, 'I am [the] Christ'
2. ye shall hear of wars and rumours (threats) of wars
3. nation shall rise against nation
4. kingdom against kingdom
5. there shall be famines (plural!)
6. there shall be ... pestilences (plural!)
7. there shall be ... earthquakes (plural!)
8. ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake
9. MANY shall be offended (led into sin)
10. MANY ... shall betray one another
11. MANY ... shall hate one another
12. MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many
13. iniquity shall abound
14. the love of MANY shall wax (grow) cold
15. this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world

All of these points indicate A LARGE AMOUNT OF TIME GOING BY and "then shall the end come."

He also said, "he that shall endure (last) unto the end (of the tribulation), the same shall be saved (rescued; delivered)!"

His only words of "comfort" during all this are these:

"And except those days (of persecution) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days (of persecution) shall be shortened."

It's not the length of time between the start of the persecution and His Second Coming that is "shortened"; it's the number of days of persecution within that length of time that is shortened! In other words, there will be reprieves given throughout this time period, time to rebuild and repopulate the persecuted "elect," God's "chosen ones!" "Ye chosen seed of Israel's race, Ye ransomed from the fall," as Edward Perronet said in his song, "All Hail the Power."

THAT'S THE "TRIBULATION" THAT YESHUA` TAUGHT! And, these United States of America are the biggest reprieve that His chosen ones have received in the last 2,000 years, and so far, THAT'S the length of the "Tribulation," not some pittance of 7 years nor half of that!

=======

Change of gears, here: Suppose that I'm right and the "tribulation period" is more like 2,000 years long. What does that do to a "pretribulational rapture?" It CAN'T exist, because we're already IN the "tribulation!"

If the 7 years of the 70th Week of Daniel 9 is not the "tribulation," then WHAT IS IT?! For the answer to that, we must go back to Daniel 9!

The six purposes for the 70 Weeks are stated in verse 24.

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy.

We all know these were started by the Messiah Yeshua` (the Christ Jesus) in His First Advent. And, we know that whatever the Messiah did, especially in His death, burial, and resurrection, He did perfectly and finished the task of justification for all.

But, can we truly say that "transgressions are finished?" Can we truly say that "sins have been ended?" Can we say that "iniquities have all been reconciled?" Can we truly say that "everlasting righteousness has been brought in?" I don't believe we can until they have been PRACTICALLY APPLIED to all God's children!

Can we say that "the vision and prophecy have been sealed up?" No, not yet.

Can we say that "the most Holy has been anointed?" Well, He's been anointed by His Father when the Holy Spirit of God, like a dove, descended upon Him, but David was anointed by God through His prophet Sh'mu'el (Samuel) long before he was anointed by the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") or the children of Israel. We certainly know that the nation of Israel has not yet anointed Yeshua` as their King. So, I believe, this too has yet to be completed.

The 70th Week of years, not being the "tribulation," would rather be the time when all six of these purposes would be fulfilled in a time when God offered the Kingdom to Israel through His Son being His Messiah to be their King.

The first half of the Week, He came as the Lamb of God, the sacrifice for sin. The Jewish rabbis called this the Mashiyach Ben Yosef, "Messiah Son of Joseph" (referring to the Joseph in Genesis), the suffering and dying Messiah.

The second half of the Week, He will come as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the victorious and reigning Messiah. The Jewish rabbis called this Mashiyach Ben David, "Messiah Son of David," the victorious and reigning Messiah.

Both of these described the two different Messiahs found in prophecy. Recognizing that Yeshua` during His First Advent was the "suffering and dying Messiah," John the Baptist sent his disciples to ask, "Art thou he that should come (the victorious and reigning Messiah, too) or do we look for another?" The rabbis were always debating whether there would be one Messiah fulfilling both roles, or if there would be two Messiahs, each taking one of the two roles. Yeshua` demonstrated miracles for John's disciples that partly fulfilled those prophecies about the Messiah Son of David, and told them to go show John what they saw.

John wasn't "shaken in his faith," as some claim. He was confirming that there was only ONE Messiah, the Son of God! After all, he himself had come "in the spirit of Elijah," although he wasn't Elijah himself.

The end of the 69th Week coincides with the 1st presentation of the Messiah in Jerusalem as God's Messiah, anointed to be King! This happened right after His baptism.

The first half of the 70th Week was the "initial offer of the Kingdom to the Jews" during Yeshua`s First Advent. The second half of the 70th Week will be the "second offer of the Kingdom to the Jews" after His Second Coming, but the "tribulation" ends with His Coming!

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

First, understand that the "antichrist" or the "Beast" is not found in Daniel 9:26 at all. The subject is the "people" and it is followed by a prepositional phrase, "of the prince that shall come." Therefore, the "prince" CANNOT be the subject of the verbs in verse 27. For the singular, masculine subject that can be the antecedent of the verbs in verse 27, we must go back to "Messiah" in verse 26.

Therefore, it is the MESSIAH who "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." This was the DAVIDIC COVENANT, which was quoted by Gabriel when he announced the Messiah's conception to Mary in Luke 1:30-33.

It is the MESSIAH who, "in the midst of the week, shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." This was fulfilled in the death of the Messiah on the cross, when the veil in the Temple was ripped in two (See Hebrews 9 and 10.)

It is the MESSIAH who, "for the overspreading of abominations, shall make it desolate, even until the consummation." This was fulfilled when the Messiah bawled out the scribes and the Pharisees in Matthew 23 for their abominations, and in verse 38 when He left them "desolate."

Then we are told, "that [which is] determined shall be poured upon the [ones left] desolate." THIS is the "tribulation" which our Lord predicted in the Olivet Discourse.

You may not be ready, yet, to accept this, but it's something to think about and consider.