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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


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4 hours ago, Uriah said:

We need not fear a mere dictionary. And as anyone can readily see for themselves in the partial list provided (largely excludes non biblical references) the word usage and context cannot be denied.

The word apostasia is the noun form of the combination apo and histemi.   Aphistemi is the verb form.

It is similar to me saying "John went on a run".  Run is a noun in that sentence.  "See John run."  Run is verb in that sentence.  Yet both have the equivalent meaning of the exercise of running.

Apostasia is only used in the NT twice.  In Acts 21:21 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3.  But Aphistemi is used 15 times in the NT, and in only 3 instances does it mean a spiritual departure.  75% of the time it refers to a physical/spatial/distance departure. Translations of aphistemi highlighted in red, and all these are a literal, physical, spatial departure.....

Luke 2:37 (NKJV) and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

Luke 4:13 (NKJV) Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time.

Luke 13:27 (NKJV) But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.

Acts 5:38 (NKJV) And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing;

Acts 12:10 (NKJV) When they were past the first and the second guard posts, they came to the iron gate that leads to the city, which opened to them of its own accord; and they went out and went down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him.

Acts 15:38 (NKJV) But Paul insisted that they should not take with them the one who had departed from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work.

Acts 19:9 (NKJV) But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.

2 Corinthians 12:8 (NKJV) Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.

And the list goes on, but this makes the point.   The vast majority of passages that use the aphistemi verb form of apostasia reflect a physical, spatial departure.  It is no different than using the word "run" as a noun or a verb.  It can have similar meaning.   Aphistemi and Aspostasia, combined for a total of 17 times in the NT, 4 times have an illustration of a spiritual departure and 13 times as a physical, spatial departure.  Over 3 to 1 ratio in favor of a physical, spatial departure.

Also in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, there is a definite article that suggests that what is being talked about is a singular, one time event expounded by the use of the noun apostasia... "the departure".  And the only other use of the noun apostasia, what is being departed from is clearly outlined in the passage.  But it 2 Thessalonians 2, it stands alone.    Even if one views the passage as "falling away", there has been many departures or "falling away" from the faith over the centuries.  Falling away is a not a singular event that one can point to that definitively is a marker to show the next phase is the revealing of the man of sin.  There really is no definitive, unique, one time event that one can identify as "the" falling away.

And regarding "man of sin", that has the definite article "the" also.  "the" man of sin.  Not a generic men of sin if one maintains a consistent interpretation in the verse by using "falling away" in a general sense.  This is further evidence that the verse is speaking of a one time singular event of the departure.  Again, given the context and the examples of the word forms of apostasia and aphistemi used, the reasoned assertion is that it is speaking of the physical departing of the redeemed before the man of sin is revealed.

 The verse says this will happen first, the man of sin will be revealed. The Greek "kai" in the verse has a meaning of a secondary conjunction.  It could very well have been translated as "then" in the passage to more definitively show that the man of sin is revealed after the departure.

The "and" usage in KJV, NKJV, and others can have the same intent.  For instance, let's say I was speeding and I got a ticket.   Obviously, the actual speeding and receiving the ticket were not in the same instance.  The LEO does not hand me the ticket while I am speeding. They are separate events joined by "and", but in a 1-2 fashion.  One had to happen first before the other did.  If the one didn't happen first, then the second one would never have.  The very same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.  The departure will happen first as a singular, definitive, unique event and (then) the man of sin as a singular, definitive, unique individual will be revealed.

Nothing wild eyed here.  Just using simple grammatical and literary principles to make the case.  Paul's letter to the Romans is studied even in secular literary classes in college for its profound structure and style.  Paul was a extremely learned man that wrote with a precision that is still being emulated today.  I am just applying  the same principles in viewing his letters to the Thessalonians.

Edited by OldCoot
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19 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

The word apostasia is the noun form of the combination apo and histemi.   Aphistemi is the verb form.

It is similar to me saying "John went on a run".  Run is a noun in that sentence.  "See John run."  Run is verb in that sentence.  Yet both have the equivalent meaning of the exercise of running.

Apostasia is only used in the NT twice.  In Acts 21:21 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3.  But Aphistemi is used 15 times in the NT, and in only 3 instances does it mean a spiritual departure.  75% of the time it refers to a physical/spatial/distance departure. Translations of aphistemi highlighted in red, and all these are a literal, physical, spatial departure.....

Luke 2:37 (NKJV) and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

Luke 4:13 (NKJV) Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time.

Luke 13:27 (NKJV) But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.

Acts 5:38 (NKJV) And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing;

Acts 12:10 (NKJV) When they were past the first and the second guard posts, they came to the iron gate that leads to the city, which opened to them of its own accord; and they went out and went down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him.

Acts 15:38 (NKJV) But Paul insisted that they should not take with them the one who had departed from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work.

Acts 19:9 (NKJV) But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.

2 Corinthians 12:8 (NKJV) Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.

Quote

And the list goes on,

Of ocurse it does Coot....WHEN YOU TRY TO JAM A DIFFERENT WORD IN THAT WASN'T ON THE PAGE!!! Please, STOP IT!

but this makes the point.   The vast majority of passages that use the aphistemi verb form of apostasia reflect a physical, spatial departure.  It is no different than using the word "run" as a noun or a verb.  It can have similar meaning.   Aphistemi and Aspostasia,

Quote

combined for a total of 17 times

Of course it does Coot.... WHEN YOU ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE LIKE A PINBALL, IN CITATIONS THAT ARE NOT ON THE PAGE UNDER DISCUSSION. Please, TRY TO STAY FOCUSED!!!

in the NT, 4 times have an illustration of a spiritual departure and 13 times as a physical, spatial departure.  

Quote

Over 3 to 1 ratio

Of course Coot, WHEN YOU FLOOD THE EQUATION WITH A WORD THAT WASN'T EVEN USED!!! Please, LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!!

in favor of a physical, spatial departure.

Also in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, there is a definite article that suggests that what is being talked about is a singular, one time event... "the departure"  Even if one views the passage as "falling away", there has been many departures or "falling away" from the faith over the centuries.  Falling away is a not a singular event that one can point to that definitively is a marker to show the next phase is the revealing of the man of sin.  

And that has the definite article "the" also.  "the" man of sin.  Not a generic men of sin if one maintains a consistent interpretation in the verse by using "falling away" in a general sense.  This is further evidence that the verse is speaking of a one time singular event of the departure.  Again, given the context and the examples of the word forms of apostasia and aphistemi used, the reasoned assertion is that it is speaking of the physical departing of the redeemed before the man of sin is revealed.

 The verse says this will happen first, the man of sin will be revealed. The Greek "kai" in the verse has a meaning of a secondary conjunction.  It could very well have been translated as "then" in the passage to more definitively show that the man of sin is revealed after the departure.

The "and" usage in KJV, NKJV, and others can have the same intent.  For instance, let's say I was speeding and I got a ticket.   Obviously, the actual speeding and receiving the ticket were not in the same instance.  The are joined by "and" but in a 1-2 fashion.  One had to happen first before the other did.  If the one didn't happen first, then the second one would never have.  The very same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.  The departure will happen first and (then) the man of sin will be revealed.

Nothing wild eyed here.  Just using simple grammatical and literary principles to make the case.  Paul's letter to the Romans is studied even in secular literary classes in college for its profound structure and style.  Paul was a extremely learned man that wrote with a precision that is still being emulated today.  I am just applying  the same principles in viewing his letters to the Thessalonians.

It is becoming more difficult to believe you don't see what you are doing. I ask about one thing, you talk about something else. That is not the way to have a conversation. If you think that your command of these things is to be used like blowing up a balloon and letting it go, it is the opposite of a discussion. It is ignoring simple, easy to understand portions of scriptures-in context-found in multiple places- in context- with supporting examples of usage-  without being full of contradictions. 

But I have seen this style before used by people who maintain the pre trib theory. Tell you what Coot, write back to me about the the simple connection in 2 Thes. 2:1 and 2:8. Let me know how it goes with just 2 sentences, not very hard to do. I hope your ego wasn't hurt, I only mean to have a REAL discussion with you and wanted to sternly remind you of what a discussion is.

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11 hours ago, Uriah said:

Of ocurse it does Coot....WHEN YOU TRY TO JAM A DIFFERENT WORD IN THAT WASN'T ON THE PAGE!!! Please, STOP IT!

Different English word, not a different Greek word.  Using departure as opposed to falling away.  I have as much license to put a different English word that applies to the Greek word as anyone who has done any translation of the text.  Again, translators, dictionary writers, and anyone else has no greater authority in the body than anyone else, except the Apostles themselves when it comes to the scripture.   

11 hours ago, Uriah said:

Of course it does Coot.... WHEN YOU ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE LIKE A PINBALL, IN CITATIONS THAT ARE NOT ON THE PAGE UNDER DISCUSSION. Please, TRY TO STAY FOCUSED!!!

 

I did stay quite focused.  That you have problems with grammar and literary style is not my problem.  I am not responsible for what others learned or didn't learn in school.   

The topic is about the pre-trib.   You had referred to proof of it happening before the man of sin being revealed.  I showed how the the text says it does and how the OT supports that as well in earlier posts. You are just playing the "death by a thousand conditions" methodology along with trying to turn the tables in an attempt to make any opposition look like a rube.  Highly disingenuous on your part.

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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:
Quote

Different English word, not a different Greek word.

What?? don't tell me you are one of those that still look up a root word of the actual word used and switch over to the meaning of the root word rather than the one used by the writer.....or worse-substitute a different word for the one in the sentence of discussion!

ä-po-stä-sē'-ä   Feminine of the same as ἀποστάσιον (G647)    2 Thes 2:3

ä-fē'-stā-mē     From ἀπό (G575) and ἵστημι (G2476)   Luke 2:37  etc.

Got a license for that?

 

Quote

Using departure as opposed to falling away.  I have as much license to put a different English word that applies to the Greek word as anyone who has done any translation of the text.  Again, translators, dictionary writers, and anyone else has no greater authority in the body than anyone else, except the Apostles themselves when it comes to the scripture.  

Except that the translators actually used the usage of the same word, as did the dictionary compilers. 

Quote

I did stay quite focused

C'mon Coot, you really did stay focused of proving pre trib, I'll give you that.

Quote

 That you have problems with grammar and literary style is not my problem.

Well I think I am not having a problem with honestly staying the word actually used on the page of manuscript. I don't try to mash another word or version of it into the discussion.

Quote

 I am not responsible for what others learned or didn't learn in school.

We can learn accuracy/honesty for the school of God's Spirit.  

Quote

The topic is about the pre-trib.   You had referred to proof of it happening before the man of sin being revealed.  I showed how the the text says it does and how the OT supports that as well in earlier posts.

Well I don't think you mean you found the man of sin in the O.T. But in earlier posts, your theory didn't hold up to scriptural scrutiny. Which is why you avoided them so avidly.

Quote

You are just playing the "death by a thousand conditions" methodology along with trying to turn the tables in an attempt to make any opposition look like a rube.  Highly disingenuous on your part.

Nah, not at all. The pre trib teaching does that to itself all by itself.

 

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On 6/22/2018 at 6:05 AM, enoob57 said:

Some of the early Church writers wrote about the persecution of the Tribulation as if the saints will be present. However, a number of early Christian commentaries suggested that the Church will be delivered supernaturally before the Great Tribulation.

Yes, and etc. etc. What is quoted in the post I quoted about, is from Grant Jeffey's book "“Apocalypse” or perhaps also quoted on sites like Rapture Ready, I good site for those desperate to believe in the pre-trib rapture.
For those who are actually interested in and find that post quoted above to be persuasive, you could peruse a critique of these claims at http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf .It is largely just an examination of how Grant Jeffrey  has a tendency to do historical revisionism on eschatological topic. The writer of the above linked pdf file, primarily shows the sources that Jeffrey quotes, but in ther contexts, so you can see what Jeffrey left out, sometimes demonstrating clearly, that the writers were not claiming to say what Jeffrey wants you to believe they held to.
I do not mind reading pre-trib writers, but I really prefer ones who are honest, like Walvoord, for example. I do not think it is appropriate to cherry pick writings to make them say what you want them to say, any more than it is appropriate to do that with the Bible. Sure, one can build a case with selections, but not when you are intentionally changing the meaning or ignoring things that contradict what your point is. Truth is more important, than agendas, don't you think?

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59 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yes, and etc. etc. What is quoted in the post I quoted about, is from Grant Jeffey's book "“Apocalypse” or perhaps also quoted on sites like Rapture Ready, I good site for those desperate to believe in the pre-trib rapture.
For those who are actually interested in and find that post quoted above to be persuasive, you could peruse a critique of these claims at http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf .It is largely just an examination of how Grant Jeffrey  has a tendency to do historical revisionism on eschatological topic. The writer of the above linked pdf file, primarily shows the sources that Jeffrey quotes, but in ther contexts, so you can see what Jeffrey left out, sometimes demonstrating clearly, that the writers were not claiming to say what Jeffrey wants you to believe they held to.
I do not mind reading pre-trib writers, but I really prefer ones who are honest, like Walvoord, for example. I do not think it is appropriate to cherry pick writings to make them say what you want them to say, any more than it is appropriate to do that with the Bible. Sure, one can build a case with selections, but not when you are intentionally changing the meaning or ignoring things that contradict what your point is. Truth is more important, than agendas, don't you think?

yup... it's the only thing that will continue into the eternity...

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On 7/18/2019 at 1:28 PM, OldCoot said:

 JS was not an apostle or such that his work should be considered the final authority.

I think that is a valid point, but the translators of Bible, before and after the KJV, are not apostles either. The translators of the KJV, expected that there would be better translations after theirs. That might be humility, it might also me that they knew their limitation, and the limitation of their source material.

With  regard to strong, and others like him, is it not also possible, that with his long career of study, and the availability that modern printing techniques and greater communication through print, travel, telephone, and for later scholars, even the internet!  They have all benefited  from those who have gone before them. This might mean, that we are in a better position to translate that we have ever been. Also we have so many texts in later times to work with, that that is another benefit, we are swimming in riches of documents.

Strong is not even the gold standard for this kind of work anyway. Good of course, but resources like that, a Vines are geared a bit toward the common man, like me. Not that I would dare to try to translate the Greek scriptures, but those sources would not be my go to material.

I have no trouble with those who want to cite scholars, better that than citing those who are not experts. Things like commentaries can be very useful, but it is best to remain aware, that people comment often from their own prejudices, even if they did do their homework to come to their conclusions.

I think for lay people, such as myself, it is best to compare scripture with scripture, and listen to what others have to say, and weight it. If a person cites a passage, and it is not in harmony with all other passages, then our understanding of at least one passage, is erroneous. The right understanding has all passages in agreement, and should not read into passages, things that are not expressed in them.

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On 7/18/2019 at 8:23 PM, Uriah said:

Of ocurse it does Coot....WHEN YOU TRY TO JAM A DIFFERENT WORD IN THAT WASN'T ON THE PAGE!!! Please, STOP IT!

Every pre-tribber does this.

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52 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Every pre-tribber does this.

The Big Question is???  When does Pre Trib begin (the 70th Week)?

When is the end of the Church Age?

Another Question is???  When does Post, Mid Trib or Pre Wrath begin or end?

Which position is impossible to calculate for its onset? 

Which positions depend on the first position for timing?

Which positions are totally unknown at this time?

In Christ

Montana Marv

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An important question indeed, Marv. I will answer by tomorrow...if I can squeeze it in but it make take another day.

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