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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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7 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Thanks for the reply, my view is similar, but being post-trib not quite the same. 

I believe the nations will be judged for how they treat Christians and Israel. On a national, not individual basis. 

I don't quite agree with your Jehosaphat comparison, that is specifically the destruction of all the attacking armies on the DOTL, in the mountainous area to the East of Jerusalem, also known as the winepress of wrath in Rev 14 and Rev 19.

But forgetting the details, I agree that the saved are resurrected earlier, and the better nations survive the second coming and populate the millennium. The bad nations are destroyed at the second coming. 

 

 

What I thought was interesting is that Yeshua (Jesus) was teaching in Matthew 25 regarding judging the nations from the very spot that Joel 3 was referencing... the valley of Jehoshaphat.  The Mt. of Olives overlooks that valley.  Seemed rather significant.

I can deal with pre, mid, or even pre-wrath positions, but post trib seems pretty thin as to be darn near invisible.  Both OT and NT contradict the idea it seems.

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

John 14:2-3 (NASB) In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Now those three verses are very tight nit.  They all have something in common with each other, referring to the same thing, the gathering of the righteous.  And Isaiah is very clear that this resurrection of the dead and the people entering their chambers which Yeshua also talks about in John 14 happens before the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.

Also in Isaiah, it sets up the passage above with a reference to the time it is talking about....

Isaiah 26:17 (NKJV) As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O Lord.

And that this is the tribulation period is shown in.....

Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,

But he shall be saved out of it.

And supported by Yeshua in....

Matthew 24:21 (NKJV) For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So while all these passages do not make the bullet proof case for pre, mid, pre-wraths or anything in between, as there are other passages that get into detail about that, they seem to negate the idea of a post trib scenario very handily.

And the Torah requirement is that for any matter to be decided, there must be at least 2 witnesses.  The Bereans in Acts 17 set the example of how this is applied.  They searched the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true.  They had the OT and what Paul taught became much of the NT.  So we have the two witnesses.  One cannot make a case from only the OT or the NT.  It has to have confirmation in both.  And the above supports any other than a post trib position.  

Edited by OldCoot
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8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Indeed, the Sheep and Goat judgment happens after Yeshua (Jesus) physically returns to earth. But it is an expository teaching by Yeshua on Joel 3.....

Joel 3:2 (NKJV) I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

Matthew 25:32 (NKJV) All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Actually, "nations" in scripture always has the Goyim / Gentiles in view.

The brethren that they are being either condemned (goats) or judged righteous (sheep) for are how they treated Yeshua's physical brethren, the Hebrew people.  See again Joel 3.

The Sheep are indeed saved believers, but not the believers of the Ekklesia/Church which had already been removed previous to the revealing of the man of sin / lawless one / son of perdition / antichrist character.

These sheep also have eternal life, just as we as believers now have passed from death to life due to our faith in the Messiah.  But they are still in their physical bodies and enter into the kingdom in those physical bodies.

These believers, or "sheep", of the Matthew 25 account are the people that came thru the GT period and will enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth under the Messiah's reign.  They are not ruling along with Messiah as it states the ekklesia/chruch does in Revelation 2:26-27.

I find this part about believers in natural bodies entering the MA very interesting. It connects to something I have considered regarding the eventual fate of those that come 'into Christ' then, during and after the MA---as I am convinced that natural living men will continue to be born after the New Heaven and Earth and yet will never die. This also connects to what the 'Church Age' saints and more may be tasked with throughout the ages.

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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

What I thought was interesting is that Yeshua (Jesus) was teaching in Matthew 25 regarding judging the nations from the very spot that Joel 3 was referencing... the valley of Jehoshaphat.  The Mt. of Olives overlooks that valley.  Seemed rather significant.

I can deal with pre, mid, or even pre-wrath positions, but post trib seems pretty thin as to be darn near invisible.  Both OT and NT contradict the idea it seems.

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

John 14:2-3 (NASB) In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Now those three verses are very tight nit.  They all have something in common with each other, referring to the same thing, the gathering of the righteous.  And Isaiah is very clear that this resurrection of the dead and the people entering their chambers which Yeshua also talks about in John 14 happens before the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.

Also in Isaiah, it sets up the passage above with a reference to the time it is talking about....

Isaiah 26:17 (NKJV) As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O Lord.

And that this is the tribulation period is shown in.....

Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,

But he shall be saved out of it.

And supported by Yeshua in....

Matthew 24:21 (NKJV) For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So while all these passages do not make the bullet proof case for pre, mid, pre-wraths or anything in between, as there are other passages that get into detail about that, they seem to negate the idea of a post trib scenario very handily.

And the Torah requirement is that for any matter to be decided, there must be at least 2 witnesses.  The Bereans in Acts 17 set the example of how this is applied.  They searched the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true.  They had the OT and what Paul taught became much of the NT.  So we have the two witnesses.  One cannot make a case from only the OT or the NT.  It has to have confirmation in both.  And the above supports any other than a post trib position.  

Interesting what you say about the proximity of the Mt of Olives to Jehosaphat.

 

Sure I'm pre-wrath. I believe we miss the wrath at the second coming, the resurrection occurring earlier in the day. The winepress of wrath outside Jerusalem in the valley of Jehosaphat occurring later in the day. 

 

We are raptured earlier, but even though mortal Israel endures more of the wrath on that day, they too will be saved from certain destruction through the intervention of the heavenly army. We will be in that army, those wearing the white linen of Rev 19.

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2nd Thess. 2:7

 

Lets look at this verse.  And i'll not try to position it, to achieve a theological solution to "pre", "Mid" or "whatever.

I'll let the reader of Thread's like this one, just have it as a consideration.

""For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now restrains will do so, until he be taken out of the way.""""

 

Now, let me expound this verse, slightly, to give it more contrast and clarity....

"for the anti-christ spirit does already manifest itself....  only the HOLY SPIRIT who now restrains this ACSpirit will continue to do so, until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled"..

Now, if you look at it like that......then consider this..

Where is the Holy Spirit since Acts 2?   Well, He is inside the BELIEVERS.

So, how would the HS be taken out, and thereby no longer hold back the Anti-Christ and Spirit, from taking over the planet, spiritually and literally?

Thats a simple answer.     For this to happen, all that has to happen if for the containers of the Holy Spirit to no longer be here, as the Holy Spirit who is sealed until the day of redemption inside the born again, is going to go where they go.  = The Rapture will take away the Holy Spirit from the earth, because the containers of the Holy Spirit, the believers, will be GONE, and so will the HS.

Edited by Behold
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2 minutes ago, Behold said:

2nd Thess. 2:7

 

Lets look at this verse.  And i'll not try to position it, to achieve a theological solution to "pre", "Mid" or "whatever.

I'll let the reader of Thread's like this one, just have it as a consideration.

""For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now restrains will do so, until he be taken out of the way.""""

 

Now, let me expound this verse, slightly, to give it more contrast and clarity....

"for the anti-christ spirit does already manifest itself....  only the HOLY SPIRIT who now restrains this ACSpirit will continue to do so, until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled"..

Now, if you look at it like that......then consider this..

Where is the Holy Spirit since Acts 2?   Well, He is inside the BELIEVERS.

So, how would the HS be taken out, and thereby no longer hold back the Anti-Christ and Spirit, from taking over the planet, spiritually and literally?

Thats a simple answer.     For this to happen, all that has to happen if for the containers of the Holy Spirit to no longer be here, as the Holy Spirit who is sealed until the day of redemption inside the born again, is going to go where they go.  = The Rapture will take away the Holy Spirit from the earth, because the containers of the Holy Spirit, the believers, will be GONE, and so will the HS.

The problem I have with this is that the Holy Spirit will still be on earth to 'convict of sin' and point to Christ.

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16 minutes ago, Alive said:

The problem I have with this is that the Holy Spirit will still be on earth to 'convict of sin' and point to Christ.

You didnt post a verse to address your theology.

Are you quoting John 16:8, that is talking about the Comforter who comes after Christ is ascended?

Its helpful if you post your verse(s), so that i can see your theology.

Salvation after the Rapture is not "Grace".  There is no "time of the gentiles" in the Tribulation.....etc.

It becomes  a mixture of works and faith.

Edited by Behold
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5 minutes ago, Behold said:

You didnt post a verse to address your theology.

Are you quoting John 16:8, that is talking about the Comforter who comes after Christ is ascended?

Its helpful if you post your verse(s), if you are going to try to teach.

Salvation after the Rapture is not "Grace".  There is no "time of the gentiles" in the Tribulation.....etc.

It becomes  a mixture of works and faith.

I wasn't thinking of John 16.8 at all in that context. The Holy Spirit was clearly active 'on men' prior to Pentecost when the Spirit was sent to 'indwell' the saints.

I am certain the Holy Spirit was, is and will be active in addition to Him being 'in us'.

As far as your stating that Salvation after the ecclesia is taken up, is not via "Grace", but only a mixture of "faith and works"?

Sorry--but that makes no sense to me.

I am not "trying" to teach. I am sharing thoughts--if that becomes 'teaching', that is entirely up to the Lord.

:-)

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6 minutes ago, Alive said:

As far as your stating that Salvation after the ecclesia is taken up, is not via "Grace", but only a mixture of "faith and works"?

Sorry--but that makes no sense to me.

 

Ok, think about this...

Why is salvation "of faith", NOW, but wont be when Jesus is LITERLALLY sitting in Jerusalem, ruling the Universe that He originally Created. ?

This difference, when understood,  can help to clarify why, faith is now, but faith wont be, then..... the "work of God" that God accepts to save a person, as He does NOW.

And because of this, we can see that salvation is not in effect the same way, after the 2nd Advent, as you find it now, prior to Jesus's return.

Simply, its this...

"Faith", is believing in what you CAN'T See.  And that is why its FAITH.......It takes FAITH to believe in a God and a Son of God, that you can't see.... so, you have to have this sight unseen ="faith" that is accepted by  God and Son, now.  Its believing in what you can't SEE,  that you have to trust....sight unseen.  This is the FAITH that God requires and accepts. "in the time of the Gentiles".

Whereas, when Christ is here, you don't have to have faith, because He will be here doing what God does......so, no faith is necessary, when you can SEE HIM, and watch Him doing the work of GOD.

So, that is why its faith (alone)  now, but not then...... 

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5 minutes ago, Behold said:

Ok, think about this...

Why is salvation "of faith", NOW, but wont be when Jesus is LITERLALLY sitting in Jerusalem, ruling the Universe that He originally Created. ?

This difference, when understood,  can help to clarify why, faith is now, but faith wont be, then..... the "work of God" that God accepts to save a person, as He does NOW.

And because of this, we can see that salvation is not in effect the same way, after the 2nd Advent, as you find it now, prior to Jesus's return.

Simply, its this...

"Faith", is believing in what you CAN'T See.  And that is why its FAITH.......It takes FAITH to believe in a God and a Son of God, that you can't see.... so, you have to have this sight unseen ="faith" that is accepted by  God and Son, now.  Its believing in what you can't SEE,  that you have to trust....sight unseen.  This is the FAITH that God requires and accepts. "in the time of the Gentiles".

Whereas, when Christ is here, you don't have to have faith, because He will be here doing what God does......so, no faith is necessary, when you can SEE HIM, and watch Him doing the work of GOD.

So, that is why its faith (alone)  now, but not then...... 

Ah yes---my comments were not the context of the MA, but rather the remaining years of tribulation prior to us returning with Christ.

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43 minutes ago, Alive said:

Ah yes---my comments were not the context of the MA, but rather the remaining years of tribulation prior to us returning with Christ.

Ok, lets look specifically at your comments.

But to look at them, we need a context...  We need to see a context to this whole "Holy Spirit" situation, so that we can nail down a theology.

First.,   if we teach....>"the HS is here to convict of sin"......then we have to have a REASON for this that defines the purpose of this happening, and once we see this, then rightly dividing the trib, from the time of the gentiles, and from the MA, will appear.

So, why is the HS given in the time of the Gentiles, in a way that is not the same for Old Testament Saints, or for anyone who is in the Trib, or the MA?

A.) The Holy Spirit is given, since the Cross was raised and until the Trib starts, <>to lead you to the CROSS,<> to find the solution to the law that has judged you as a sinner according to God's holiness standards.

 Now, in the Tribulation, there is one way to be "saved".   You have to not take the Mark, and you have to keep the law, and you have to die a Martyr for Christ.  That is the only way to be saved, "right after the time of the gentiles ends".  And that is awful.  So, its better to take the "free gift of salvation now", AND LET JESUS DO ALL THE SUFFERING SO THAT YOU DONT HAVE TO... IN THE TRIB.

Consider that someone thinks...>"well, in the Trib, its the same Grace that God gives, for Faith.. SALVATION IS THE SAME..."""""....but how this be, if you are told in the NT that if you take the Mark DURING THE TRIB, you are hell-bound.  So, not taking the Mark....is that NOW?   Are we now not taking a Mark , to be saved AS OF AD 1 -AD 2019??  NOPE......  So, even in this, we see that "tribulation salvation" is different then what we have now.. as not taking a mark, is what those will have to NOT DO< to be saved during the TRIB.   And this is not Grace.  Grace, is God saving you.   There is no add on to the Cross (in the time of the Gentiles) that says......"oh by the way, in the time of the Gentiles be sure to NOT take the mark"......so, that "not taking the mark"....thats a WORK, that is a part of a salvation that is NOT the same as GRACE and the "gift of righteousness" that is found "in the time of the Gentiles".

See it?

And what about the MA?    Well why would the Holy Spirit be leading anyone to the Cross in the MA, when Jesus is walking around on the Earth?   So, that is pretty obvious.

Edited by Behold
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