Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Alive]

8 minutes ago, Behold said:

Ok, lets look specifically at your comments.

But to look at them, we need a context...  We need to see a context to this whole "Holy Spirit" situation, so that we can nail down a theology.

First.,   if we teach....>"the HS is here to convict of sin"......then we have to have a REASON for this that defines the purpose of this happening, and once we see this, then rightly dividing the trib, from the time of the gentiles, and from the MA, will appear.

So, why is the HS given in the time of the Gentiles, in a way that is not the same for Old Testament Saints, or for anyone who is in the Trib, or the MA?

A.) The Holy Spirit is given, since the Cross was raised and until the Trib starts, <>to lead you to the CROSS,<> to find the solution to the law that has judged you as a sinner according to God's holiness standards.

 Now, in the Tribulation, there is one way to be "saved".   You have to not take the Mark, and you have to keep the law, and you have to die a Martyr for Christ.  That is the only way to be saved, "after the time of the gentiles".  And that is awful.  So, its better to take the "free gift of salvation now", AND LET JESUS DO ALL THE SUFFERING SO THAT YOU DONT HAVE TO... IN THE TRIB.

Consider that someone thinks...>"well, in the Trib, its the same Grace that God gives, for Faith.. SALVATION IS THE SAME..."""""....but how this be, if you are told in the NT that if you take the Mark DURING THE TRIB, you are hell-bound.  So, not taking the Mark....is that NOW?   Are we now not taking a Mark , to be saved AS OF AD 1 -AD 2019??  NOPE......  So, even in this, we see that "tribulation salvation" is different then what we have now.. as not taking a mark, is what those will have to NOT DO< to be saved during the TRIB.   And this is not Grace.  Grace, is God saving you.   There is no add on to the Cross (in the time of the Gentiles) that says......"oh by the way, in the time of the Gentiles be sure to NOT take the mark"......so, that "not taking the mark"....thats a WORK, that is a part of a salvation that is NOT the same as GRACE and the "gift of righteousness" that is found "in the time of the Gentiles".a

And what about the MA?    Well why would the Holy Spirit be leading anyone to the Cross in the MA, when Jesus is walking around on the Earth?   So, that is pretty obvious.

Behold--I am struggling with seeing just what you are trying to accomplish here.

I see some logical fallacies and it is generally convoluted.

For example--as I attempt to grok what you wrote.

Are you saying that to 'not take the mark' is a work and that the HS isn't involved at all? Why can't the Holy Spirit be present?

To be clear---I understand what you are laying down regarding 'faith' during the MA, but that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is not involved.

You seem to be saying that the first means the second follows naturally. You exclude the one because of the other. This does not follow--in my way of thinking.

The Holy Spirit was active before the cross and after the cross. Everything you are saying seems to be keyed to your conviction that the Holy Spirit leaves the scene with the ecclesia.

 

[OldCoot]

16 hours ago, Alive said:

I find this part about believers in natural bodies entering the MA very interesting. It connects to something I have considered regarding the eventual fate of those that come 'into Christ' then, during and after the MA---as I am convinced that natural living men will continue to be born after the New Heaven and Earth and yet will never die. This also connects to what the 'Church Age' saints and more may be tasked with throughout the ages.

One way to look at it is this...

We know from Revelation 20 that when Satan is released after the 1000 years of the Messianic Kingdom that He is able to foment a almost worldwide rebellion against the Messiah.  Where do you suppose those that rebel comes from?   I would contend that those who went into the Messianic Kingdom were righteous, i.e. Justified, as Matthew 25 states, but they have children in the kingdom. Those children have children.  On and On.  In 1000 years, with all wars ceased, that would add up to a very sizable population.  Running the math, about as many people on the earth as there are now or more.

It is not inconceivable that even though the initial parents were redeemed and justified, many of the children do not accept Yeshua.  Psalms 2 seems to bear that out....

Psalms 2:1-3 (NKJV) Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us."

Many that do not come to Jerusalem at the feasts will be penalized in some way....

Zechariah 14:16-17 (NKJV) And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

Now that is really gong to tick some folks off if that happens.  How do people act now when there is a drought?  And if it is brought on by the Lord Himself, they have a target of their outrage.

Some of the Kingdom parables of Matthew 13 shed a little light on this.  For instance, the parable of the mustard seed.  In the parable it states it grows into a large tree. Anyone who knows about mustard plants know they are only a bush.  What is going on is something irregular.  And notice, the birds nest in it.  Well, from the parable of the sower preceding this one, we see that the birds are the evil ones.  So it would seem that, even though Satan is locked up, there will still be some of his minions around to cause some trouble.

Likewise, the parable of the leaven.  Leaven in scripture is almost always associated with sin.  That is because, like leaven puffs up the dough, pride puffs up the person to sin.  This is why the Lord hates pride.   And if you notice, the woman is hiding leaven in 3 measures of meal.  That is what the fellowship offering at the temple was, and to hide leaven in it was a capital crime in ancient Israel.   Notice also how Jezebel (woman) is associated with sin in Revelation 2:20 by introducing sin the church.  It seems that sin is being introduced into the kingdom and grows to the point where Satan can foment a major rebellion against the Lord when he is released.

This is why the Lord will reign with a rod of iron.  He will have to punish those who get out of line.  And as Revelation 2:26-27 shows, the redeemed of the Church now are ruling with Him with a rod of iron just as He has been given from the Father.

I think a lot of folks see the Messianic Kingdom as a heaven on earth thing.  Well, the Lord will restore the earth to the pre-fall state I believe, but the mortal people who go into the kingdom still retain their sin nature.  And that gets passed on to their children.  And some are not going to like the heavy hand of Yeshua ruling over them.  People even now get all bent out of shape about government regulations.  Won't be any different.

That apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Cliff

Edited December 11, 2019 by OldCoot
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[OldCoot]

12 hours ago, Alive said:

The problem I have with this is that the Holy Spirit will still be on earth to 'convict of sin' and point to Christ.

True, because no one can come to Yeshua without being drawn by the Holy Spirit.

But the text of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 says He is taken out of the way.  It doesn't say He leaves the planet.

Think of it this way.  A offensive guard on a football field protects the back field from the opposition getting to the quarterback.  Well, think of the Holy Spirit in the same way.  He is the offensive guard keeping the evil ones from overrunning the backfield and overpowering the ekklesia / church.  But with the Ekklesia having been gathered unto Yeshua and removed, the Holy Spirit then steps out of the way and allows the antichrist and all hell to break loose on the planet.

The Holy Spirit is still here, but He is no longer restraining the evil one from going on a  rampage.

Simple eh?

Cliff

 

 

[OldCoot]

13 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Sure I'm pre-wrath. I believe we miss the wrath at the second coming, the resurrection occurring earlier in the day. The winepress of wrath outside Jerusalem in the valley of Jehosaphat occurring later in the day. 

I am not convinced of that.  due to the passages that speak of the ekklesia being removed before the man of sin / son of perdition / antichrist is revealed.  One needs to do a study on "labor pains" / "birth pains" in scripture in many future event passages.  And the antichrist character is revealed a long time before the wrath comes upon the earth.  But there are passages that can imply a mid or even a pre-wrath position.  All we can do is discuss the merits of various passages and see where the evidence leads.  We need to be diligent detectives and search things out and not bring our preconceived ideas along for the ride.

My only major disagreement is with the post trib position.  It requires some real allegorical gymnastics to arrive at that one.  Pre-trib, Mid-Trib, and Pre-wrath are all "technically" a pre-wrath position.  It is just a debate on how much pre-wrath is in view.    So we can have very healthy debates on those positions.  The Post-Trib is so thin as to be almost invisible. 

I hold to a pre-trib idea, and I believe there is scripture support for that view in both OT and NT.  But I also recognize there are some passages that seem to align with mid and pre-wrath view.    I also think that some of the division between these views is more a study of ecclesiology and not eschatology.  Once one gets real firm grasp on who and what the church is, and what passages apply to the church, to Israel, and to the world, then some of the divisions go away.

Cliff

Edited December 11, 2019 by OldCoot

[ARGOSY]

4 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I am not convinced of that.  due to the passages that speak of the ekklesia being removed before the man of sin / son of perdition / antichrist is revealed.  One needs to do a study on "labor pains" / "birth pains" in scripture in many future event passages.  And the antichrist character is revealed a long time before the wrath comes upon the earth.  But there are passages that can imply a mid or even a pre-wrath position.  All we can do is discuss the merits of various passages and see where the evidence leads.  We need to be diligent detectives and search things out and not bring our preconceived ideas along for the ride.

My only major disagreement is with the post trib position.  It requires some real allegorical gymnastics to arrive at that one.  Pre-trib, Mid-Trib, and Pre-wrath are all "technically" a pre-wrath position.  It is just a debate on how much pre-wrath is in view.    So we can have very healthy debates on those positions.  The Post-Trib is so thin as to be almost invisible. 

I hold to a pre-trib idea, and I believe there is scripture support for that view in both OT and NT.  But I also recognize there are some passages that seem to align with mid and pre-wrath view.    I also think that some of the division between these views is more a study of ecclesiology and not eschatology.  Once one gets real firm grasp on who and what the church is, and what passages apply to the church, to Israel, and to the world, then some of the divisions go away.

Cliff

As I said, I am pre-wrath because the rapture comes earlier on that day, then the war of Rev 19.

 

The Olivet Discourse describes the gathering of the saints at the second coming. 

1 Thess 4 describes the rapture at the "coming of the Lord", not earlier. 

1 Cor 15 describes the rapture as a resurrection "when he comes" (both the resurrection, and Jesus coming, are obviously second  coming events) 

2 Thess 2 states the antichrist must come first then the gathering. 

Every time the rapture is mentioned, it is in second coming context, I see no need for complicated explanations when the face value meaning works just fine. 

(and a "swoop" is a coming, because the Bible has no problem calling it a coming) 

[Alive]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

One way to look at it is this...

We know from Revelation 20 that when Satan is released after the 1000 years of the Messianic Kingdom that He is able to foment a almost worldwide rebellion against the Messiah.  Where do you suppose those that rebel comes from?   I would contend that those who went into the Messianic Kingdom were righteous, i.e. Justified, as Matthew 25 states, but they have children in the kingdom. Those children have children.  On and On.  In 1000 years, with all wars ceased, that would add up to a very sizable population.  Running the math, about as many people on the earth as there are now or more.

It is not inconceivable that even though the initial parents were redeemed and justified, many of the children do not accept Yeshua.  Psalms 2 seems to bear that out....

Psalms 2:1-3 (NKJV) Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us."

Many that do not come to Jerusalem at the feasts will be penalized in some way....

Zechariah 14:16-17 (NKJV) And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

Now that is really gong to tick some folks off if that happens.  How do people act now when there is a drought?  And if it is brought on by the Lord Himself, they have a target of their outrage.

Some of the Kingdom parables of Matthew 13 shed a little light on this.  For instance, the parable of the mustard seed.  In the parable it states it grows into a large tree. Anyone who knows about mustard plants know they are only a bush.  What is going on is something irregular.  And notice, the birds nest in it.  Well, from the parable of the sower preceding this one, we see that the birds are the evil ones.  So it would seem that, even though Satan is locked up, there will still be some of his minions around to cause some trouble.

Likewise, the parable of the leaven.  Leaven in scripture is almost always associated with sin.  That is because, like leaven puffs up the dough, pride puffs up the person to sin.  This is why the Lord hates pride.   And if you notice, the woman is hiding leaven in 3 measures of meal.  That is what the fellowship offering at the temple was, and to hide leaven in it was a capital crime in ancient Israel.   Notice also how Jezebel (woman) is associated with sin in Revelation 2:20 by introducing sin the church.  It seems that sin is being introduced into the kingdom and grows to the point where Satan can foment a major rebellion against the Lord when he is released.

This is why the Lord will reign with a rod of iron.  He will have to punish those who get out of line.  And as Revelation 2:26-27 shows, the redeemed of the Church now are ruling with Him with a rod of iron just as He has been given from the Father.

I think a lot of folks see the Messianic Kingdom as a heaven on earth thing.  Well, the Lord will restore the earth to the pre-fall state I believe, but the mortal people who go into the kingdom still retain their sin nature.  And that gets passed on to their children.  And some are not going to like the heavy hand of Yeshua ruling over them.  People even now get all bent out of shape about government regulations.  Won't be any different.

That apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Cliff

Yup---this is exactly the way I see these things. It follows very simply.

[Alive]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

True, because no one can come to Yeshua without being drawn by the Holy Spirit.

But the text of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 says He is taken out of the way.  It doesn't say He leaves the planet.

Think of it this way.  A offensive guard on a football field protects the back field from the opposition getting to the quarterback.  Well, think of the Holy Spirit in the same way.  He is the offensive guard keeping the evil ones from overrunning the backfield and overpowering the ekklesia / church.  But with the Ekklesia having been gathered unto Yeshua and removed, the Holy Spirit then steps out of the way and allows the antichrist and all hell to break loose on the planet.

The Holy Spirit is still here, but He is no longer restraining the evil one from going on a  rampage.

Simple eh?

Cliff

 

 

Yup--a perfectly reasonable accounting considering the things that we do know.

Folks sometimes check their collective rational brains at the door of the 'spiritual'.

I would remind folks that even when Jesus Christ was on earth and performing all kinds of miracles including raising the dead and speaking with maximum authority---most folks still refused to believe Him. If we step back and think about that for a moment--it is an astounding thing.

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

As I said, I am pre-wrath because the rapture comes earlier on that day, then the war of Rev 19.

I got it the first time you wrote it.  I just am not convinced the rapture is as tight as you suggest. 

Pre-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath are all technically "pre-wrath".  Just how far "pre" is the debate.  

Edited December 11, 2019 by OldCoot

[Alive]

8 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I got it the first time you wrote it.  I just am not convinced the rapture is as tight as you suggest. 

Pre-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath are all technically "pre-wrath".  Just how far "pre" is the debate.  

Since joining the forum and reading a lot of discussions on this, I find it interesting that so many folks have focused attention on the issue and still there is no consensus.

This suggests to me, that the Lord doesn't desire one.

Of course, I could be all wet. One thing is certain--we will know as things unfold and we hear a loud shout and a trumpet.

Maranatha!

[Last Daze]

33 minutes ago, Alive said:

One thing is certain--we will know as things unfold and we hear a loud shout and a trumpet.

Maranatha!

And ours is to stay awake and endure until that time.