Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Joulre2abba]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:21 PM, transmogrified said:

Who are the saints that would be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?

 

The answer is within the phrase you mentioned in your question or do you really want everyone to know how you could miss the obvious by me answering more plainly? 

[transmogrified]

On 1/13/2022 at 8:21 PM, transmogrified said:

On 1/13/2022 at 4:22 PM, Joulre2abba said:

Those saints to be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation do reign with Christ along with all pre-Trib resurrected-raptured old and new testament church age saints who reign with Christ during the Millennium.

Who are the saints that would be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?

I am sorry but I do not understand who are those that are resurrected after the tribulation...I think you are saying all old and new testament saints up to the pre-trib rapture would be resurrected before the tribulation, but I am not sure who you are saying gets resurrected after the tribulation...could you please clarify...? Thank you- Gary

[truth7t7]

On 1/13/2022 at 3:22 PM, Joulre2abba said:

According to a rightly divided eschatology.. At the resurrection-ascension of Jesus all of the old testament and gospel saints who died were resurrected-ascended with Christ because they believed in a Messiah/Savior to come.

All those believers alive from the day of resurrection of Jesus and Pentecost onwards include we at this present time are all of the church age who will be pre-Trib resurrection-raptured.

Those saints to be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation do reign with Christ along with all pre-Trib resurrected-raptured old and new testament church age saints who reign with Christ during the Millennium.

All others resurrected are those who ever lived and died in sin who are judged and condemned.

Sounds like you have four different resurrections?

[Selah7]

Greetings, @transmogrified  . . .

Who gets resurrected after the great tribulation?

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. -Mark 13:13

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:11-13 

. . .
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:6 (KJV)

selah

[transmogrified]

6 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Who gets resurrected after the great tribulation?

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. -Mark 13:13

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:11-13 

. . .
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:6 (KJV)

selah

Greetings....I was asking him who was resurrected after the tribulation because it was said that the pre-trib resurrection included all old and new testament saints...who would not be included in that group? 

 

[Joulre2abba]

On 1/23/2022 at 5:52 AM, truth7t7 said:

Sounds like you have four different resurrections?

Yes, the group resurrections are -

1- those resurrected with Jesus.

2- those resurrected from the church age.

3- those resurrected from the 7 year Tribulation.

4- all sinners who ever lived.

There are also the single resurrections and raptures from the OT & NT -

1- Enoch, rapture

2- the prophet Elijah, rapture

3- Moses, rez&rap

4- the two witnesses of Revelation, rez&rap (mid-Trib)

[truth7t7]

29 minutes ago, Joulre2abba said:

Yes, the group resurrections are -

1- those resurrected with Jesus.

2- those resurrected from the church age.

3- those resurrected from the 7 year Tribulation.

4- all sinners who ever lived.

There are also the single resurrections and raptures from the OT & NT -

1- Enoch, rapture

2- the prophet Elijah, rapture

3- Moses, rez&rap

4- the two witnesses of Revelation, rez&rap (mid-Trib)

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

(Revelation) 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

(John) 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(John) 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(1 Corinthians) 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

(John) 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[transmogrified]

17 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

On 1/23/2022 at 3:52 AM, truth7t7 said:

Sounds like you have four different resurrections?

Yes, the group resurrections are -

1- those resurrected with Jesus.

2- those resurrected from the church age.

3- those resurrected from the 7 year Tribulation.

4- all sinners who ever lived.

There are also the single resurrections and raptures from the OT & NT -

1- Enoch, rapture

2- the prophet Elijah, rapture

3- Moses, rez&rap

4- the two witnesses of Revelation, rez&rap (mid-Trib)

1) Those resurrected in Matthew 52-53 did not receive glorified bodies...and did not ascend up to heaven, but went into the holy city and were known of many...in other words they were physically resurrected in the same sense as Lazarus and died again...The only category the scripture gives is 'Christ the first- fruits, afterward they that Christ's at his coming.' Not, 'Christ and some saints the first-fruits, but Christ (alone) was the first that should rise...everyone else gets resurrected at the Last Trumpet.

2) Those resurrected from the church age- The 'church age' is a man made construct. The end of this age is the harvest in which all the wheat is harvested...not just a select portion of wheat and then another portion at another time...The wheat and tares also would not fit the pre -trib paradigm in any sense...for the tares are harvested at the same time the wheat is...pre-trib has no tares harvested until the end of the next age.

3) Those resurrected from the 7 year tribulation- These are correctly identified as 'new testament saints' ...saints are saints no matter whether they are alive now or alive during the tribulation. All will be resurrected at the same time according to Paul...we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...not at different times for different saints. 

4) All sinners who ever lived...these are resurrected at the same time as the righteous as is plainly seen in the good and bad fish scenario...at the Second coming...the net was let down one time and was not drawn to shore until it was full of both good and bad fish...not the net was let down one time for some good fish, then let down again for the other good fish, then let down again for just the bad fish...the pre-trib protocol is completely foreign to what is written 

2) Enoch, rapture- It is not clear what happened with Enoch...we know Jesus said no man has ascended up into heaven when he was here on earth so if Jesus was the first to be resurrected and receive a glorified body, we know that it did not happen to Enoch first. 

3) The prophet Elijah- This is easily shown that he did not ascend up into the  third heaven, but rather into a whirlwind and was let down at another location...the time frame can be shown that some 8 or so years after he was caught up into a whirlwind he wrote a letter to Jehoram  reproving him of his evil deeds. 

4) Moses resurrection / rapture- Moses is dead as are all the other prophets as he is listed in Hebrews 11 with the others who received not the promise but are awaiting the resurrection like everyone else...when Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mt. of Olives this was not actually them in glorified bodies...they are going to receive glorified bodies when everyone else receives them...it was a vision, like the sheet let down from heaven with the animals in it...the animals were not real...you could not go up to them and pet them...it was a vision format. 

5) The two witnesses / resurrection / rapture- These are shown to be resurrected at the 7th Trumpet  and ascend up to heaven at the same time all the saints will be resurrected. 

Jesus is right in that he said 'All those who see the Son and believe on him will be raised at the last day...not in different periods of time for different people.

Paul also said the same thing that we shall all be changed at the last trump...

John in Rev. 11 also said at the 7th trumpet was the time of the dead that they should be judged and rewarded...pre trib has the saints already resurrected and rewarded 7 years or so prior to this...this is false...he gives rewards to the saints, small and great along with the prophets and them that fear his name...tribulation saints, new testament saints, old testament saints are all those who fear his name..

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

1) Those resurrected in Matthew 52-53 did not receive glorified bodies...and did not ascend up to heaven, but went into the holy city and were known of many...in other words they were physically resurrected in the same sense as Lazarus and died again...The only category the scripture gives is 'Christ the first- fruits, afterward they that Christ's at his coming.' Not, 'Christ and some saints the first-fruits, but Christ (alone) was the first that should rise...everyone else gets resurrected at the Last Trumpet.

2) Those resurrected from the church age- The 'church age' is a man made construct. The end of this age is the harvest in which all the wheat is harvested...not just a select portion of wheat and then another portion at another time...The wheat and tares also would not fit the pre -trib paradigm in any sense...for the tares are harvested at the same time the wheat is...pre-trib has no tares harvested until the end of the next age.

3) Those resurrected from the 7 year tribulation- These are correctly identified as 'new testament saints' ...saints are saints no matter whether they are alive now or alive during the tribulation. All will be resurrected at the same time according to Paul...we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...not at different times for different saints. 

4) All sinners who ever lived...these are resurrected at the same time as the righteous as is plainly seen in the good and bad fish scenario...at the Second coming...the net was let down one time and was not drawn to shore until it was full of both good and bad fish...not the net was let down one time for some good fish, then let down again for the other good fish, then let down again for just the bad fish...the pre-trib protocol is completely foreign to what is written 

2) Enoch, rapture- It is not clear what happened with Enoch...we know Jesus said no man has ascended up into heaven when he was here on earth so if Jesus was the first to be resurrected and receive a glorified body, we know that it did not happen to Enoch first. 

3) The prophet Elijah- This is easily shown that he did not ascend up into the  third heaven, but rather into a whirlwind and was let down at another location...the time frame can be shown that some 8 or so years after he was caught up into a whirlwind he wrote a letter to Jehoram  reproving him of his evil deeds. 

4) Moses resurrection / rapture- Moses is dead as are all the other prophets as he is listed in Hebrews 11 with the others who received not the promise but are awaiting the resurrection like everyone else...when Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mt. of Olives this was not actually them in glorified bodies...they are going to receive glorified bodies when everyone else receives them...it was a vision, like the sheet let down from heaven with the animals in it...the animals were not real...you could not go up to them and pet them...it was a vision format. 

5) The two witnesses / resurrection / rapture- These are shown to be resurrected at the 7th Trumpet  and ascend up to heaven at the same time all the saints will be resurrected. 

Jesus is right in that he said 'All those who see the Son and believe on him will be raised at the last day...not in different periods of time for different people.

Paul also said the same thing that we shall all be changed at the last trump...

John in Rev. 11 also said at the 7th trumpet was the time of the dead that they should be judged and rewarded...pre trib has the saints already resurrected and rewarded 7 years or so prior to this...this is false...he gives rewards to the saints, small and great along with the prophets and them that fear his name...tribulation saints, new testament saints, old testament saints are all those who fear his name..

It is my opinion that the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11 will be Enoch and Elijah who never experienced a physical death, as Hebrews 9:27 below states its appointed unto man once to die

As Revelation 11:7-8 below shows, the (Two Witnesses) will be killed fulfilling death for Enoch/Elijah 

Hebrews 9:27KJV

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Revelation 11:7-8KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Edited January 26, 2022 by truth7t7

[transmogrified]

 

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

It is my opinion that the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11 will be Enoch and Elijah who never experienced a physical death, as Hebrews 9:27 below states its appointed unto man once to die

I have a hard time thinking these two men never died...Elijah and Enoch are both listed in Hebrews 11 ... it says 'all these died in faith not having received the promise...the one phrase is in Hebrews 11:32 where it mentions David, Samuel and 'the prophets...'

So Elijah and Enoch would fit within the prophet category...but the thing that is hard to get is that it says 'Enoch was translated that he should not see death...but then later it says 'all these died in faith..' I have looked at Enoch for a long time and I don't have a good explanation and have not heard anyone else with one either...Of course I would like to know, but so far I have put it on the shelf until I can see what its talking about.

Elijah can easily be seen he did not ascend up to heaven and receive a glorified body of course because of what Jesus said that 'no man hath ascended up into heaven..' but also the chronology of when Elijah was taken up can be shown he wrote a letter to Jehoram about 8 years after this event occurred.

Ahaziah dies according to the word of God given by Elijah 2 Kings 1:17...Approximately 8 years later after he was taken up he writes a letter to Jehoram in 2 Chron. 21:12...Jehoram dies 2 years later 2 Chron. 21:19.....

I have a very in depth chart on the chronology of the Bible by Martin Anstey, called the "Romance of Bible Chronology..." absolutely the most detailed study in existence from what I know. 

But from the charts of the kings in power during that time it can be seen the time frame we are talking about. 

It is kind of folklore that these two men never died, seemingly pretty predominate in the pre trib world but another thing it says is 'In Adam all die,' and also the scripture you gave, it is appointed unto men once to die...the only exception that can be pointed to is where Paul said 'we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...'

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

As Revelation 11:7-8 below shows, the (Two Witnesses) will be killed fulfilling death for Enoch/Elijah 

Right...I know people have said this at times..but these conclusions seem to be built on the premise that they never died, whereas Hebrews 11 shows that the prophets all died in faith...

Blessings to you