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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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if you're ready for Christ to return at any moment, you pruify yourself with that hope...that's what the early Church believed, and that's what I believe

by contrast, if you believe the antichrist must be revelaed and set up a seven year peace treaty with Israel before Chirst can return....or, still more far out, the Abomination must occur...well...I can't speak for anyone else, but I would be inclined to slack, because I've always got more time!

This is really a form of argumentation known as "the appeal to fear". Basically this argument attepmpts to say that a certain proposition must be true or false because of the bad consequences of it being otherwise. In your case you are maintainnig that a "sudden rapture" must be true because if it were not, people would not live with a sense of urgency. The consequences of a belief have no bearing on whether it is true or false.

For example, people will say that they just can't believe in the possibility of a nuclear war because the destruction would be so terrible. The opposite form of thie arguement is called "wishful thinking". This arguments says that a proposition must be true or false because the results would be so wonderful. An example:

God must exist, because the after-life will be so wonderful and if God did not exist, there would be no after-life.

In both cases, the consequence (whether good or bad) do not logically support the neccessity of the proposition

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if you're ready for Christ to return at any moment, you purify yourself with that hope...that's what the early Church believed, and that's what I believe

can someone answer this: if the 24 elders in Revelation 4 don't represent the Church, WHO DO THEY REPRESENT?

The 12 Disciples and the 12 Patriarchs of the 12 tribes. Or, maybe the Prophets and Moses, Enoch, etc. The possibilities are there but the idea of it being or representing the church doesn't make a great deal of sense, at least to me.

As far as believing Christ can return at any moment, I think all of us hope and prepare for that. However, that doesn't mean He will rapture anyone. Also, there are certain things that must happen, according to Biblical prophecy....such as the two witnesses. But, who knows, they could already be here :)

And too, consider this. When Christ arrives, at His 2nd. Advent, all will be changed:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52.In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If we are ALL changed does that mean ALL (the good, bad and ugly) or ALL that believe in Him? I personally believe it means everyone. If it is everyone then how much of the wrath will some experience? Will we be changed at the instant of His arrival, as it sounds, or after the wrath? Even if it is after the wrath we must remember that He isn't angry with us....His wrath is reserved for those that took the mark of the beast.

Lots to consider... :)

...........Whirlwind

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'Shlomo'

I don't know how many times I have heard this about the preaching off the 144,000. Scores of times to be sure. When I examine the Bible, I find the following verses pertaining to the 140,000:

Rev 7:4-8

The 144,000 witnesses have come up several times in this and other threads, so it's time I asked...

What is the significance of the division of the tribes in Rev 7 ?

For those that believe these are literal Jews.

And those that believe they are not.

There's several questions for both camps.

Obviously, the twelve listed in Rev 7 differ from the original sons of Israel as identified in Gen 49, but they also differ in ways that are not so obvious...

1) The difference that is normally talked about is the omission of Dan, often explained as the result of Jacob's prophecy over him (interpreted as "the antichrist comes from you so you don't get to play in the game...").

But there are others difference too.

2) Levi appears in the list. Which agrees with the tribes by birth (Gen 49) but is different than the tribes by land allocation (recorded in Joshua) - where Levi is removed and Joseph is represent by the two "half-tribes" his sons Manasseh and Ephraim.

3) Even though Levi and Joseph are included in the list of twelve in Rev 7, one of the half-tribes of Joseph is still there - Manasseh, but not Ephraim.

4) Simeon appears in the list in Rev 7, even though his tribe has (apparently) completely disappeared following the civil war in the time of Solomon's son Rehoboam (when the ten tribes split off from the United Monarchy to create the northern kingdom of Israel - listed as the nine landed tribes Zebulun, Issachar, Asher, Naphtali, Dan, Manasseh, Ephraim, Reuben and Gad, and some members of Levi who had no land allocation. But the Bible makes no reference at this point to the Tribe of Simeon, leaving many to believe that the tribe had already disappeared due to the curse of Jacob.

So I am very curious to hear how different people interpret these twelve specifically named Tribes - both from a literal and a symbolic perspective.

shlomo

I'm "from the camp" of those that believe the 10 northern tribes or, house of Israel, are not Jews. You've raised an interesting question and there isn't much I can add to it.

Someone I study with lightly touched on the subject once and said that Dan and Ephraim are left out because of idolatry but they are again listed during the millennium (Ez.48).

I also am curious to hear what people say in answer to your question.

...........Whirlwind

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I'm "from the camp" of those that believe the 10 northern tribes or, house of Israel, are not Jews.

There are many mysteries, legends, and traditions as to what happened to the 10 lost tribes of the Northern Kingdom. The truth is that the tribes were never lost. Most of the people of the Northern Kingdom were deported to ancient Assyria (2 Kings 17:6). Many of those who remained in the land re-united with Judah in the south (2 Chronicles 34:6-9). Assyria was then conquered by Babylon, who then went on to conquer and deport the two remaining tribes of the Southern Kingdom, Judah and Benjamin (2 Kings 25:21). When King Cyrus allows the Israelites to return to Israel (Ezra chapter 1), many from the northern ten tribes and southern two tribes returned to Israel. In the New Testament, the prophetess Anna (Luke 2:36) was from the tribe of Asher (one of the 10 supposed lost tribes). In Jesus

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I don't know how many times I have heard this about the preaching off the 144,000. Scores of times to be sure. When I examine the Bible, I find the following verses pertaining to the 140,000:

Shalom Whirlwind and thanx for replying.

I am very interested in this list and was hoping for more responses.

Maybe I should open a new topic ... ?

thanx again -- shlomo ben david

If you do open it again, or someone responds, I hope I won't miss it....it is interesting. :noidea:

May I ask why you believe the 144,000 are the ones that preach? :emot-shakehead:

.....Whirlwind

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I'm "from the camp" of those that believe the 10 northern tribes or, house of Israel, are not Jews.

There are many mysteries, legends, and traditions as to what happened to the 10 lost tribes of the Northern Kingdom. The truth is that the tribes were never lost. Most of the people of the Northern Kingdom were deported to ancient Assyria (2 Kings 17:6). Many of those who remained in the land re-united with Judah in the south (2 Chronicles 34:6-9). Assyria was then conquered by Babylon, who then went on to conquer and deport the two remaining tribes of the Southern Kingdom, Judah and Benjamin (2 Kings 25:21). When King Cyrus allows the Israelites to return to Israel (Ezra chapter 1), many from the northern ten tribes and southern two tribes returned to Israel. In the New Testament, the prophetess Anna (Luke 2:36) was from the tribe of Asher (one of the 10 supposed lost tribes). In Jesus

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Hi Kari...I questioned my friend and the following was his answer, or part of his answer. I hope it will be of interest to you: :taped:

11 Chronicles 34:6 And so did he in the cities of Manasseh, and Ephraim, and Simeon, even unto Naphtali, with their mattocks round about.

(my question to him) - The question is if the northern tribes are scattered what was that scripture in reference to. The questioner believes it shows that the tribes had melded. My answer was 11 Kings 17:24....other men were placed in those cities.

(his answer ) - "Well....first of all....there is no question that the ten northern tribes were removed. There are a multitude of verses that show that to be the case. In addition....there are no specific verses that speak of their return from the Assyrian captivity. Your selection of [iI Kings 17:24] does indeed prove that the King of Assyria brought folks in from Babylon to re inhabit Samaria deserted by the exile of the Israelites. They are still living there in the first century and Simon Magus [Acts 8] is one of their descendants!

The mention of the cities in the tribal areas of Manasseh, Ephraim, Simeon and Naphtali is to show that the entire area of Israel was being cleansed. It does not mean that these cities still remained standing. This is transpiring about eight years into Josiah's reign (verse 3 of II Chronicles 34) and Josiah became King in 640 B.C., so it is almost a hundred years after the Assyrian exile took place in 722 B.C.

The word Mattocks can also be translated as "Ruins" as you can see here on the right hand side where different translations indeed refer to them just that way.

The map shows Naphtali in the extreme north of Israel and Simeon in the extreme south. Manasseh, being split, covered the east as well as the west. Ephraim, being the leading tribe of Israel and in the center symbolized completeness of the cleansing by Josiah. He was so determined to wipe away the remnants of paganism and idolatry he even burned the bones of the priests on their alters (verse 5). Remember our study from [i Kings 13:1-2 about the Man of God? This is the result of that prophecy.

When the King of Assyria took the Israelites....he took them all [iI Kings 17:18] leaving only Judah which at that time was composed of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi [i Kings 12:22-23]. Benjamin was the tribe spoken of in [i Kings 11:13] and the Levites left Israel because of what happened in [i Kings 12:31-32]. [iI Chronicles 11:13-17] tells of the priests leaving Israel and coming to Judah, joining their brothers, the Benjamites....and eventually becoming known as Jews also.

If someone is telling you that this verse [iI Chronicles 34;6] proves that the Northern Kingdom of Israel still inhabited this area during the reign of Josiah...they just do not have a good grasp of biblical history. [iI Kings 17:23] itself, written after the return of Judah from Babylon 200 years later......says "They (The Ten Tribes) are still there....in Assyria"!

I'm kind of running short on time this evening....so I'll get back to you on Anna, the prophetess of [Luke 2:36]. I'm pingin' Doug cause he likes history and also Chuck cause I see he is active again on this thread. It's been an interesting thread....hasn't it?"

That was his reply on one of the topics. If you have any questions about it I would be glad to relay them....I'll let you know about Anna too. Perhaps she was just one of the few that remained with Judah??? :whistling:

.........Whirlwind

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I have one question: Is your friend one who believes in British Israelism?

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All he researches is from the Bible and some of the books that weren't canonized

Why would you trust anything apocryphal?

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I have one question: Is your friend one who believes in British Israelism?

That question came up before and he said no, he does not. All he researches is from the Bible and some of the books that weren't canonized.

Are either you or your friend a follower of Arnold Murray and Shepherds Chapel?

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