Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[whirlwind]

May I ask why you believe the 144,000 are the ones that preach?

.....Whirlwind

Yes you may.

But I do not believe that these 144,000 will be a bunch of "Jewish Billy Graham's" evangelizing the world becuase the Church is gone. This is an a priori conclusion of Pretribulational Rapturism to provide a way for the Church to be absent following the Sixth Seal. (Even though it fails to provide a witness during the first six seals).

Yet there is no Scriptural evidence that these 144,000 sealed do any preaching at all!

I'm not saying that they aren't Witnesses for Him, but Scripture does not say they are evangelizing anybody.

They are described as "bond-servants" (doulous tou theou - slaves of God; not diakanous tou theou - servants of God).

But not as evangelists...

It says they are sealed to protect them from the coming wrath of God (really putting a hamper on those who posit that the entire seven years is the wrath of god). Because the Church is already sealed I believe these 144,000 are not members of the Church, though my theology is not so limited that I can't see God having both here at the same time.

So I do believe that they are physical Israelites, but because of the uniqueness of the 12 tribes, I am not dogmatic and could be convinced there is some symbolism involved.

For me, I would really like to know why He chose these 12 tribes...

I'm sorry it took so long to answer you.....thank you for your reply.

I agree with you...the 144,000 are sealed but nowhere does it state that they teach. My understanding is that before the end can come those 144,000 must be sealed to the truth before the advent of Christ:

Revelation 7:3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

I will tell you what I believe it is about....you may or may not agree with me.

It has to do with God's elect. There are 7,000 "very elect" and 144,000 elect. The 144,000 of the tribes are the elect, those God has chosen.

At the end of days they will, as most of the world, follow Satan believing he is our Christ. But, they must and will be sealed - know the truth - before the true Christ arrives, before it is too late! How does that happen and who does it?

The "very" elect - the 7,000:

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

The number seven, as I'm sure you know, means spiritual completeness, so the 7,000 could be a literal 7,000 or be whatever number God thinks is the perfect number. They are the ones that witness in the end of days. When Christ was asked by His disciples to tell them about those last days, He said:

Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

10.And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11.But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

That is when the "unpardonable sin" can be committed:

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

11.And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

12.For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."

So...some or all of the 7,000 are delivered before Satan or his workers and the Holy Spirit will speak through them and what is said will open the eyes and ears of the 144,000 and many others. As Luke said, when this "delivering up" is happening:

Luke 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

18.But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Now, when we plant seeds with others, it may not seem to be very effective but when the Holy Spirit speaks many of those seeds of truth will sprout and souls will know the true Christ.

I hate to make a long story any longer....but I will.

The 7,000 never "bowed a knee to Baal"....they knew the truth and never mistakenly worshipped Satan. (for some reason I'm writing in past tense???) They are the ones that allowed the Holy Spirit to speak through them. The 144,000 did follow Satan but had their eyes opened before Christ came, before it was too late. They will pay a price for that but they will still be part of the first resurrection. All others, the spiritually dead, will be taught during the millennium and must be tested at it's end before they are either given eternal life or the lake of fire!

All of the elect, the 144,000 and the 7,000 were "chosen before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) and that is another story in itself! Therein may lay the answer to your original question about the tribes! They are the physical Israelites but that raises the question of where those tribes are now. Remember, I am of the "camp" that believes only the tribe of Judah, Benjamin and part of Levi are properly called Jews. The others are the house of Israel (not the nation of Israel).....where are they today?

.....Whirlwind

[Isa]

In the book of Rev 7 angels sound seven trumpets. When the 7th angel blows the LAST of these trumpets, then "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord" (Rev 11:15-16)

It is all over. It is THE LAST TRUMPET.

Commonly quoted false pretense: you're attempting to connect the judgments of God during the Great Tribulation with the conclusion of the Church Age, that is an arbitrary and extremely tenuous assertion, at best.

note carefully what is stated in Revelation 4:1-2

After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

These two verses contain terms strikingly similar to those associated with the Rapture of the Church in the epistles:

(*) "after this" = after the Church Age; after the letters to the churches (Revelation 1:19).

(*) "a door was opened in heaven" = Jesus, who stood before the door of the Church at Laodicea, has come.

(*) "trumpet" = is mentioned twice in connection with the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:52).

(*) "voice" = the voice of the archangel (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

(*) "immediately" = the Rapture of the Church to heaven, which will take place in the

[Isa]

He will come unexpectantly.

[irishcowboy]

Hi shadow2b.

Please explain this then if w are not caught up then Christ Himself wasn't caught up.

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Revelation 12:5

She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

I believe before the tribulation we will be caught up to be with the Lord and our God.

you might wish to look at the date of the post you are replying too.... i have not seen shadow2b around for quite some time,

mike

[Isa]

Hi shadow2b.

Please explain this then if w are not caught up then Christ Himself wasn't caught up.

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Revelation 12:5

She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

I believe before the tribulation we will be caught up to be with the Lord and our God.

you might wish to look at the date of the post you are replying too.... i have not seen shadow2b around for quite some time,

mike

Okay sorry guys

[irishcowboy]

I have one question: Is your friend one who believes in British Israelism?

That question came up before and he said no, he does not. All he researches is from the Bible and some of the books that weren't canonized.

Are either you or your friend a follower of Arnold Murray and Shepherds Chapel?

as far as I know, is that some of the books that were not included in the cannon, still have value for historical purposes, but were considered not to be the God Breathed, God Inspired Word...... this does not mean they do not have value or that they are untrue...... there were other books that are not included in the Bible also, even Bartholomew had written letters, and i am sure others of the 12 had also.... but they are not included.... why???? could it be due to them duplicating other books that were accepted? i dont know, i have not read them.....

as far as the shepherds chapel, i sometimes use to listen to it while getting ready for work, but when he started talking about the angels wings not really being wings, but being something that might look like wings (refering to them more as wings of an aircraft of some sort) I started listening a bit closer, and there were other things that was said that did not set with the Word of God.... then, my stepson, with in a couple months of accepting Christ, and with in a month of being baptized in the Spirit, came in with some questions that arose from the shepherds chapel, that he found to contradict the Bible, we sat down and went over what was said and what the Bible said on the same thing ( using the verses that he read on the show) found that his explanation was totally off the wall... we do not listen to him......

if you do watch him........ OR ANY OTHER PREACHER ...... have your Bible with you..... and be very diligent about following up on things that do not sound right.... research them..... this is with all preachers.... not just those on TV either..... call them.... .maybe what they said, is not what was meant to be said, but it needs to be brought up to them so that they can correct it, as to not to lead others astray, or misguide them.....

mike

[Guest NavyMA]

I don't know how many times i have presented the definition of the word{KEEP} in these passages of scripture BUT NO ONE has EVER yet RESponded to REfute that definition....WHY IS THAT ?? CANNOT YOU'ALL FACE THE TRUTH OF THAT DEFINITION??.??

[Isa]

There are many verses that prove that the catchin up or away of the church is before the 7yr tribulation period. But the other group likes to use these verses to disprove the pre-trib rapture but it just doesn't work. For a start in the millennial kingdom who do they believe are going to be living there. If Christ's second coming is after the trib and He gathers all the believers together and they are changed in a twinkling of the eye, and the wicked are cast to hades pending further judgment. Then who goes into the millennial kingdom, there are meant to be people on the earth because Christ, the church and trib saints reign over them for one thousand years, and the Israelites are meant to lead the nations back to the Lord in Jerusalem. Doesn't pan out to me.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Who is coming here? It is the Lord coming. He is coming as a Savior not as a judge like in Matthew 24:29-31. The dead shall rise first to meet the living who are changed in a twinkling of the eye 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 and then we shall be raised even higher than the clouds we will rise together to meet the Lord in the air above the clouds. We shall be with Him eternally the bride and groom together forever.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23

The Last Enemy Destroyed

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ

[Isa]

As you can see Isa I will use many of the same scripture to disprove pretrib and show that post trib is the only biblical position.

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

With the post trib who do you believe ends up living in the millennial kingdom. Since we are all raptured at the end of the tribulation and the wicked are cast into hades pending judgment at the great white throne. There is no one left by your view for Christ, the church and the tribulation saints to reign over.

[Isa]

As you can see Isa I will use many of the same scripture to disprove pretrib and show that post trib is the only biblical position.

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

With the post trib who do you believe ends up living in the millennial kingdom. Since we are all raptured at the end of the tribulation and the wicked are cast into hades pending judgment at the great white throne. There is no one left by your view for Christ, the church and the tribulation saints to reign over.

A remnent of jewish people,that although may have never accepted Jesus as messiah,never worshipped the anti christ either.

To say because you dont know who is going to enter the millinneum if the rapture is post trib,that the rapture must be pretrib,despite the fact that every thing the bible does say on the subject points to a post trib rapture is ridiculous.

We should never allow what the bible is not clear on change what is easily understood.

The Bible is quite clear who goes into the millennial reign. To say that the a remnant of Jewish people who never worshiped the beast and who have never excepted Christ as their savior is totally against what is taught in the Bible.

The Bible states quite plainly for all to know that those who do not except Jesus Christ as Lord are punished in the eternal lake of fire. I would like scripture that states it is a remnant of Jews who go into the millennial kingdom. It has been said we should never allow what the Bible is not clear on to change what is understood.

Zechariah 12:4-9

4 In that day,