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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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50 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

Safety means "security from enemies and dangers."  People say peace and safety at the Day of the Lord.  The Day of the Lord is when Christ returns to do battle.  He removes his own at a time when there is little peace and safety on the planet and  He returns to destroy them who destroy the earth.  So the Day of the Lord happens is a time harvest and destruction as the Lord returns to do battle.   

So fixerupper,

`...loathsome sores` on those who have the mark, (Rev. 15: 2)

`..the sea ....became blood` and `every living creature in the sea died.` (Rev. 15: 3)

`...rivers and springs of water became blood,` (Rev. 15: 4)

`...the sun...`  people were scorched with fire. (Rev. 15: 8)

`...darkness`  people blasphemed God because of their pains and their sores. (Rev. 15: 10 & 11)

`...great earthquake`  as never had occurred before. (Rev. 15: 18)

There is NO `peace and Safety,` at that time bro.

Marilyn.

 

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I believe in the post trib return of Christ. When the last trump sounds then the dead in Christ will rise at his second coming. 

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7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

So can you explain to me please, what exactly do you mean by `the natural wording of the letter to the Thessalonians?` Using the scriptures can you show me what you mean?

Thank you, Marilyn.

I already quoted the relevant part in Thessalonians.  By natural wording I mean reading the text as it is written to the Thessalonian  readers without delving for loopholes. For example Paul describes the rapture then says "about times and dates" clearly associating the timing of the rapture with the thief and day of destruction. 

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6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thank you fixerupper,

Hear what you are saying, however you would need proof from scripture that people are saying `peace and safety,` at the end of the trib.

Still waiting for ARGOSY to give his thoughts too.

Marilyn.

There is no political war while the forces are building up for the surprise Armageddon attack. People will be in bed,  in the fields,  getting married etc etc and the day of destruction will take them by surprise. Peace and safety before Armageddon and the Day of the Lord. It will take a long side debate on the timing and various roles in Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11 to fully enhance the argument that there is actually political peace and safety in Israel before the Day of the Lord. But Thessalonians stands on its own to describe such a situation related to both the rapture and the day of the Lord.

Sure those in the kingdom of the beast experience sores and darkness etc but no one is expecting political strife and war. The earthquake and the war and the fire and brimstone are all part of the sudden destruction on the Day of the Lord which ends their peace. 

Edited by ARGOSY
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19 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

There is no political war while the forces are building up for the surprise Armageddon attack. People will be in bed,  in the fields,  getting married etc etc and the day of destruction will take them by surprise. Peace and safety before Armageddon and the Day of the Lord. It will take a long side debate on the timing and various roles in Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11 to fully enhance the argument that there is actually political peace and safety in Israel before the Day of the Lord. But Thessalonians stands on its own to describe such a situation related to both the rapture and the day of the Lord.

Sure those in the kingdom of the beast experience sores and darkness etc but no one is expecting political strife and war. The earthquake and the war and the fire and brimstone are all part of the sudden destruction on the Day of the Lord which ends their peace. 

Hi ARGOSY,

So let`s look at Matt. 24 and 1 Thess. 5.

`nation shall rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom.....all these are the beginning of travail, birth-pangs,` (Matt. 24: 8)

`For when they say, "Peace and Safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.` (1 Thess. 5: 3)

Thus we see that the `labour pains,` occur at the beginning of the trib. After the Russian war and judgment by God, there will be a peace treaty in the Middle East and the world will declare, "Peace and Safety."  (at last).

And actually `peace and safety` is the mandate of the UN. obviously there is no `peace and safety` now, but they, people in darkness will think there is when there is a peace treaty  made in the Middle East.

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

So let`s look at Matt. 24 and 1 Thess. 5.

`nation shall rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom.....all these are the beginning of travail, birth-pangs,` (Matt. 24: 8)

`For when they say, "Peace and Safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.` (1 Thess. 5: 3)

Thus we see that the `labour pains,` occur at the beginning of the trib. After the Russian war and judgment by God, there will be a peace treaty in the Middle East and the world will declare, "Peace and Safety."  (at last).

And actually `peace and safety` is the mandate of the UN. obviously there is no `peace and safety` now, but they, people in darkness will think there is when there is a peace treaty  made in the Middle East.

Marilyn.

Exactly . There are Wars.  Then a short period of peace.  While they are saying peace and safety then sudden destruction occurs as per Thessalonians.

This occurs at the time of  the rapture, the day of the Lord , a day of wrath. 

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28 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

Exactly . There are Wars.  Then a short period of peace.  While they are saying peace and safety then sudden destruction occurs as per Thessalonians.

This occurs at the time of  the rapture, the day of the Lord , a day of wrath. 

Hi ARGOSY,

so we are in agreement that the Day of the Lord starts with people saying `Peace and Safety,` but then sudden destruction, the beginning of birth-pangs, which obviously will get stronger & stronger till the Lord comes at Armageddon.

I am referring to the `Day,` as a period of time and also a specific Day when the Lord comes.

 

Now there is another scripture you mentioned and it would be good to look at it.

`But concerning the times and the seasons, you have no need that I should write to you,....` (1 Thess. 5: 1)

 

Times & seasons - both from Gk. word `kairos` meaning a set or proper time, a fixed or special occasion.

The believers would know from Paul concerning `times and seasons,` referring to God`s set times,

 

1. The Day of Christ. (Phil. 1 : 6 - 10)

2. The Day of the Lord. (1 Thess. 5: 2 - 9  &  2 Peter 3: 10)

3. The Day of God. (Isa. 65: 17,   66:22, 2 Peter 3: 3: 13,  Rev. 21: 1)

 

Thus the believers were being encouraged by Paul to remember God`s set times, and what was related to them - the Day of Christ.

Marilyn.

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On 7/15/2017 at 8:57 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

so we are in agreement that the Day of the Lord starts with people saying `Peace and Safety,` but then sudden destruction, the beginning of birth-pangs, which obviously will get stronger & stronger till the Lord comes at Armageddon.

I am referring to the `Day,` as a period of time and also a specific Day when the Lord comes.

 

Now there is another scripture you mentioned and it would be good to look at it.

`But concerning the times and the seasons, you have no need that I should write to you,....` (1 Thess. 5: 1)

 

Times & seasons - both from Gk. word `kairos` meaning a set or proper time, a fixed or special occasion.

The believers would know from Paul concerning `times and seasons,` referring to God`s set times,

 

1. The Day of Christ. (Phil. 1 : 6 - 10)

2. The Day of the Lord. (1 Thess. 5: 2 - 9  &  2 Peter 3: 10)

3. The Day of God. (Isa. 65: 17,   66:22, 2 Peter 3: 3: 13,  Rev. 21: 1)

 

Thus the believers were being encouraged by Paul to remember God`s set times, and what was related to them - the Day of Christ.

Marilyn.

That's a very complicated view.  You may be surprised that if you regard it all as one day at a post trib rapture it all fits pretty well. Don't forget that the rapture is associated with sudden destruction according to those verses,  no matter how you see the Day of the Lord. 

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10 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

That's a very complicated view.  You may be surprised that if you regard it all as one day at a post trib rapture it all fits pretty well. Don't forget that the rapture is associated with sudden destruction according to those verses,  no matter how you see the Day of the Lord. 

Hi ARGOSY,

Not complicated, but straight forward. God`s prophetic Calendar delineated in His word. If we don`t understand those `Days,` time periods, then all scripture is a jumble. That is why there is so much confusion here on the Prophecy and Eschatology Forums, for people confuse the three.

Marilyn.

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4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

Not complicated, but straight forward. God`s prophetic Calendar delineated in His word. If we don`t understand those `Days,` time periods, then all scripture is a jumble. That is why there is so much confusion here on the Prophecy and Eschatology Forums, for people confuse the three.

Marilyn.

In your eyes that may be true, but what are the flaws if any, in regarding them as all as one particular day?   Sure one can justify multiple views from the bible , but to see subtle changes in wording as completely separate days just seems like using semantics to justify the pre-trib view.  Simply seeing one dramatic day at the second coming, and the rapture, Armageddon, and the wrath of God all occurring on the same day (no matter what you call that day) is consistent with scripture. This makes the wording clearer to follow. Unless you see some biblical flaw in doing that? Do you see some biblical flaw in doing that?

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