Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[enoob57]

The whole point of understanding written material -written to all generations- is found in hermeneutics... allowing the written material to dictate meanings rather than the reader!

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

In your eyes that may be true, but what are the flaws if any, in regarding them as all as one particular day?   Sure one can justify multiple views from the bible , but to see subtle changes in wording as completely separate days just seems like using semantics to justify the pre-trib view.  Simply seeing one dramatic day at the second coming, and the rapture, Armageddon, and the wrath of God all occurring on the same day (no matter what you call that day) is consistent with scripture. This makes the wording clearer to follow. Unless you see some biblical flaw in doing that? Do you see some biblical flaw in doing that?

Hi ARGOSY,

I agree with you that there is also a specific Day for Christ to return. The meaning of the Greek word gives room for this. I have said this before, however you must have missed it. Like Christmas (time) and Christmas day, if I can use that as an example.

And enoob,

Yes the written material is very important, however if one does not know God`s purposes, then we can place it in the wrong overall context. 

Marilyn. 

[ARGOSY]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

I agree with you that there is also a specific Day for Christ to return. The meaning of the Greek word gives room for this. I have said this before, however you must have missed it. Like Christmas (time) and Christmas day, if I can use that as an example.

And enoob,

Yes the written material is very important, however if one does not know God`s purposes, then we can place it in the wrong overall context. 

Marilyn. 

In what way does the meaning or context of the other phrases exclude the possibility of being the second coming?

It is pretty obvious that all those verses you quoted are referring to the dramatic final day,  the end of this age.  Whether called the day of Christ,  or the day of the Lord,  or the day of God. You are playing with semantics in order to maintain your view despite your view contradicting plain wording. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by ARGOSY

[ARGOSY]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

I agree with you that there is also a specific Day for Christ to return. The meaning of the Greek word gives room for this. I have said this before, however you must have missed it. Like Christmas (time) and Christmas day, if I can use that as an example.

And enoob,

Yes the written material is very important, however if one does not know God`s purposes, then we can place it in the wrong overall context. 

Marilyn. 

And now let's discuss the other well known rapture description in the Bible.  1 Corinthians 15. Most of the chapter discusses the resurrection of the dead.  We know from Rev 20 and Daniel 12 that the resurrection occurs at the end of this age,  now 1 Corinthians 15 describes the rapture on the same day.  So every time a rapture is clearly described in the Bible it it's in the context of the end of the age. 

 

I do understand how it's difficult to change one's view once established because it feels like sacrilege to play around with what seems to be established doctrine. But  we have to force ourselves to be honest with scripture and favor the most apparent meaning in every case.  There is no single scripture that even favors the pre trib view.  Every pre trib support verse favors post trib. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by ARGOSY

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

In what way does the meaning or context of the other phrases exclude the possibility of being the second coming?

It is pretty obvious that all those verses you quoted are referring to the dramatic final day,  the end of this age.  Whether called the day of Christ,  or the day of the Lord,  or the day of God. You are playing with semantics in order to maintain your view despite your view contradicting plain wording. 

Hi ARGOSY,

So let`s look at the Day of God -

`...the day of God, because of which the heavens being in fire, will be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat.` (2 Peter 3: 12)

Clearly the end of the millennium and not when the Lord returns to deliver Israel and judge the rebellious nations at Armageddon.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

And now let's discuss the other well known rapture description in the Bible.  1 Corinthians 15. Most of the chapter discusses the resurrection of the dead.  We know from Rev 20 and Daniel 12 that the resurrection occurs at the end of this age,  now 1 Corinthians 15 describes the rapture on the same day.  So every time a rapture is clearly described in the Bible it it's in the context of the end of the age. 

 

I do understand how it's difficult to change one's view once established because it feels like sacrilege to play around with what seems to be established doctrine. But  we have to force ourselves to be honest with scripture and favor the most apparent meaning in every case.  There is no single scripture that even favors the pre trib view.  Every pre trib support verse favors post trib. 

Hi ARGOSY,

Oh yes there is a scripture that clearly reveals WHEN the pre-tribulation rapture occurs and WHY.

`God....may send Jesus....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

This would have us look at -

What is the first part of God`s great kingdom that needs something to be restored?

What do the prophets tell us of this?

 

Marilyn.

[ARGOSY]

31 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

So let`s look at the Day of God -

`...the day of God, because of which the heavens being in fire, will be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat.` (2 Peter 3: 12)

Clearly the end of the millennium and not when the Lord returns to deliver Israel and judge the rebellious nations at Armageddon.

Marilyn.

 

The ancients understood the landscape like this:

SKY (heavens)

LAND (erets/ge)

UNDERWORLD

Yes the second coming is a day of fire, when the land will transform and rocks and stuff (elements) will melt. Rocks melt even with today's warfare, it is nothing new that rocks melt. The context of 2 Peter 3 is clearly the second coming:

 ¹⁰ But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and elements (like rocks) shall melt with fervent heat, land (ge) also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, ¹² looking for and hasting unto the coming of the DAY OF GOD

The terms are used interchangeably, and refer to the second coming. 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by ARGOSY

[ARGOSY]

25 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

Oh yes there is a scripture that clearly reveals WHEN the pre-tribulation rapture occurs and WHY.

`God....may send Jesus....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

This would have us look at -

What is the first part of God`s great kingdom that needs something to be restored?

What do the prophets tell us of this?

 

Marilyn.

I'm not following your logic here exactly. Yes Jesus is in heaven until the second coming when the kingdom of Israel will be restored. We will receive our resurrection bodies, and Israel will be restored.

Edited July 18, 2017 by ARGOSY

[Marilyn C]

15 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

 

The ancients understood the landscape like this:

SKY (heavens)

LAND (erets/ge)

UNDERWORLD

Yes the second coming is a day of fire, when the land will transform and rocks and stuff (elements) will melt. Rocks melt even with today's warfare, it is nothing new that rocks melt. The context of 2 Peter 3 is clearly the second coming:

 ¹⁰ But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and elements (like rocks) shall melt with fervent heat, land (ge) also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, ¹² looking for and hasting unto the coming of the DAY OF GOD

The terms are used interchangeably, and refer to the second coming. 

 

Hi ARGOSY,

`the Day of God, because of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved and the elements will melt with fervent heat.` (2 Peter 3: 12) `Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. ...` (Rev. 20: 11)

Clearly AFTER the millennium and not BEFORE.

Marilyn,

[Marilyn C]

16 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

I'm not following your logic here exactly. Yes Jesus is in heaven until the second coming when the kingdom of Israel will be restored. We will receive our resurrection bodies, and Israel will be restored.

Hi ARGOSY,

The old testament prophets told of another area that needed rulership to be restored.

Marilyn.