Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[ARGOSY]

28 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

`the Day of God, because of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved and the elements will melt with fervent heat.` (2 Peter 3: 12) `Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. ...` (Rev. 20: 11)

Clearly AFTER the millennium and not BEFORE.

Marilyn,

Not clearly. Just because something dramatic happens to the heavens twice, does not mean they are the same event. We can see from the following scriptures that dramatic things can occur to the heavens (sky) at the end of this age:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

 

Acts 2:19 and I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke

 

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

Isaiah 34:4  And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll

 

Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke

 

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

Isaiah 66:22  For as the new heavens and the new earth

 

Sure you will try to place those verses at the end of the millenium as well to suit your view, but many of those verses are about the dramatic appearing of the Lord and the restoration of Israel. ie on ANY great judgment day like Noah's flood, the second coming, and the end of the millenium God changes the surface of the earth and the sky.  The sky rolls like smoke, one can imagine clouds like nuclear warfare across the Middle East, the landscape transformed forever, the atmosphere and visibility completely changed. 

 

Context of Isaiah 34, 65, 66 favors this new land, new sky at the second coming, when Israel will be completely regathered and restored. Context does not favor an end millenium event in these verses. So one has to face the fact that this earth as a planet continues forever, yet the land and sky are occasionally transformed into new land and sky.

[ARGOSY]

55 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

The old testament prophets told of another area that needed rulership to be restored.

Marilyn.

Your comment is a little vague.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎18‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 7:16 PM, ARGOSY said:

Your comment is a little vague.

Hi ARGOSY,

Don`t mean to be, just thought I`d give you room to think and if you wanted more info you would ask.

So Acts 3: 21 `God....may send Jesus...whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.`

I believe this is the `why` and `when` of the rapture. I`ll go a step at a time so you can perhaps challenge or ask Q.

We know that the Godhead`s throne, authority is beyond all the created order. Thus when Christ ascended He went to the Father`s right hand. We know that He is above all - He is in fact part of the Godhead. He is deity.

Now God`s plan, His eternal purposes is that His Son will rule over all, over each created realm. Thus He will be visible in the third heaven, the angelic realm. This is where the seat of power and authority of all God`s great kingdom (under the Father) will be, and Christ will be the visible supreme ruler there.

Thus there will be a man, a glorified man (who is also deity) who will rule in the realms above. Sometimes we get a bit spiro and don`t realise this important fact.

In times past we know by the OT prophets that Lucifer had authority in that angelic realm. He desired to ascend to God`s eternal throne, but he was cast out of the third heaven. God has never given authority there to anyone or any angel since. However one appointed day God the Father will set His Son as supreme ruler in the highest realm in the created order. It will then be time to `send Jesus....`

To be continued....but will stop and let you comment so far.

Marilyn.

 

[ARGOSY]

On 7/18/2017 at 11:14 AM, ARGOSY said:

Not clearly. Just because something dramatic happens to the heavens twice, does not mean they are the same event. We can see from the following scriptures that dramatic things can occur to the heavens (sky) at the end of this age:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

 

Acts 2:19 and I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke

 

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

Isaiah 34:4  And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll

 

Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke

 

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

Isaiah 66:22  For as the new heavens and the new earth

 

Sure you will try to place those verses at the end of the millenium as well to suit your view, but many of those verses are about the dramatic appearing of the Lord and the restoration of Israel. ie on ANY great judgment day like Noah's flood, the second coming, and the end of the millenium God changes the surface of the earth and the sky.  The sky rolls like smoke, one can imagine clouds like nuclear warfare across the Middle East, the landscape transformed forever, the atmosphere and visibility completely changed. 

 

Context of Isaiah 34, 65, 66 favors this new land, new sky at the second coming, when Israel will be completely regathered and restored. Context does not favor an end millenium event in these verses. So one has to face the fact that this earth as a planet continues forever, yet the land and sky are occasionally transformed into new land and sky.

Hi Marilyn, let me just recap a bit. You have a complicated view that certain days are extended and not literal, and certain days are literal. You use 2 Peter 3 to show this.   I replied that 2 Peter 3 associates the phrase "day of the Lord" (v8/v10) and the "day of God" (v12) as the same day, and I also showed that in fact the new heaven and new earth (new land) occur at the second coming as well, and is not confined to the end of the 1000 years.  1 Thessalonians 4/5; 2 Peter 3 and Matthew 24 all associate this event with the thief in the night, which occurs on the day of the Lord and the second coming.

1. The Day of Christ. (Phil. 1 : 6 - 10)

2. The Day of the Lord. (1 Thess. 5: 2 - 9  &  2 Peter 3: 10)

3. The Day of God. (Isa. 65: 17,   66:22, 2 Peter 3: 3: 13,  Rev. 21: 1)

I repeat my question, have you got ANY  reasoning to see a biblical preference that any of these days are extended? They all fit in well with the post-trib view, which sees this all as one day. (except for Rev 21:1 which is referring to a later time, but does not mention any of those 3 phrases)

Edited July 26, 2017 by ARGOSY

[ARGOSY]

On 7/20/2017 at 1:02 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

Don`t mean to be, just thought I`d give you room to think and if you wanted more info you would ask.

So Acts 3: 21 `God....may send Jesus...whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.`

I believe this is the `why` and `when` of the rapture. I`ll go a step at a time so you can perhaps challenge or ask Q.

We know that the Godhead`s throne, authority is beyond all the created order. Thus when Christ ascended He went to the Father`s right hand. We know that He is above all - He is in fact part of the Godhead. He is deity.

Now God`s plan, His eternal purposes is that His Son will rule over all, over each created realm. Thus He will be visible in the third heaven, the angelic realm. This is where the seat of power and authority of all God`s great kingdom (under the Father) will be, and Christ will be the visible supreme ruler there.

Thus there will be a man, a glorified man (who is also deity) who will rule in the realms above. Sometimes we get a bit spiro and don`t realise this important fact.

In times past we know by the OT prophets that Lucifer had authority in that angelic realm. He desired to ascend to God`s eternal throne, but he was cast out of the third heaven. God has never given authority there to anyone or any angel since. However one appointed day God the Father will set His Son as supreme ruler in the highest realm in the created order. It will then be time to `send Jesus....`

To be continued....but will stop and let you comment so far.

Marilyn.

 

I can agree with Jesus' increased rule over time. Sure but Satan and his minions still exist in the heavenly realm now, as described in Eph 3:10 Eph 6:12 and Rev 12.   For now Satan tries to hinder the gospel from that heavenly location, but even so the church overcomes. Then in Rev 12 we have this great victory of the gospel, we have overcome. The great commission has succeeded.  Then Satan is thrown out of this heavenly location for 3.5 years of wrath/great tribulation and persecution of the church. So as Jesus has increased authority, so Satan has diminished authority:

Satan is originally in heaven and the universe. He rebels and is cast down to earthly regions, but not right to earth, but in some heavenly location as described in Eph 3:10 Eph 6:12 and Rev 12.

Satan is then defeated by our testimony and is cast out of that heavenly place to actual earth for 3.5 years (Rev 12)

Then at the second coming Satan is defeated again and cast into the bottomless pit (Rev 20)

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

I can agree with Jesus' increased rule over time. Sure but Satan and his minions still exist in the heavenly realm now, as described in Eph 3:10 Eph 6:12 and Rev 12.   For now Satan tries to hinder the gospel from that heavenly location, but even so the church overcomes. Then in Rev 12 we have this great victory of the gospel, we have overcome. The great commission has succeeded.  Then Satan is thrown out of this heavenly location for 3.5 years of wrath/great tribulation and persecution of the church. So as Jesus has increased authority, so Satan has diminished authority:

Satan is originally in heaven and the universe. He rebels and is cast down to earthly regions, but not right to earth, but in some heavenly location as described in Eph 3:10 Eph 6:12 and Rev 12.

Satan is then defeated by our testimony and is cast out of that heavenly place to actual earth for 3.5 years (Rev 12)

Then at the second coming Satan is defeated again and cast into the bottomless pit (Rev 20)

Hi ARGOSY,

Satan and his minions are in the middle heavens, (Universe) the area of rulership known as the Principalities and Powers area. They have usurped authority there and over mankind. When they are cast to the earth their rulership powers are therefore lessened and more contained, till finally they go to the pit and then the lake.

I like that thought of yours -  So as Jesus has increased authority, so Satan has diminished authority.

Marilyn.

[Zoltan777]

I haven't read through this thread yet but I don't believe in rapture before the tribulation. Ask me why....

Firstly, it's a fairly new theology. It came to know only in the 19th century by John Nelson Darby. He separated the day of Jesus Christ and Lord's day as two different event but his references from bible is very feeble. Later on his followers added some other verses as you can see in this topic  as well but still....very lame.

My answer on this matter is very simple and I don't need dig very deep to find something very interesting which came from the mouth of Jesus when he prayed to the Father for his disciples before the Passover.

John: 17. 15. I pray not that you would take them from the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one. 

Jesus never wanted his disciples to be taken up before the tribulation that happened in 70.a.d.

So why would we think that he wants it now? If he didn't spare his disciples back then why would he do it now? I am just using common sense here but I believe firmly we all need to go all the hardship where most of us will be killed like Jews in the Holocaust.

Also, the Bible says that power will be given to the Antichrist over the God's people and he will kill most of them. But how can it be if there is no Christian left because they  were taken up?

Edited July 29, 2017 by Zoltan777

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Zoltan777 said:

I haven't read through this thread yet but I don't believe in rapture before the tribulation. Ask me why....

Firstly, it's a fairly new theology. It came to know only in the 19th century by John Nelson Darby. He separated the day of Jesus Christ and Lord's day as two different event but his references from bible is very feeble. Later on his followers added some other verses as you can see in this topic  as well but still....very lame.

My answer on this matter is very simple and I don't need dig very deep to find something very interesting which came from the mouth of Jesus when he prayed to the Father for his disciples before the Passover.

John: 17. 15. I pray not that you would take them from the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one. 

Jesus never wanted his disciples to be taken up before the tribulation that happened in 70.a.d.

So why would we think that he wants it now? If he didn't spare his disciples back then why would he do it now? I am just using common sense here but I believe firmly we all need to go all the hardship where most of us will be killed like Jews in the Holocaust.

Also, the Bible says that power will be given to the Antichrist over the God's people and he will kill most of them. But how can it be if there is no Christian left because they  were taken up?

The pre tribulation is not necessarily a new church theory.

Cyprian 200AD - 258 AD

Like Irenaeus, Cyprian, a highly prominent early church father believed in a “…early deliverance” for believers who would be “delivered” from judgments which would be devastating and global in nature. He taught that the Body of Christ would be delivered from the Day of the Lord.

Cyprian taught his followers that, “God has not appointed us to wrath, but salvation…” (1 Thess. 5:9), and joyfully encouraged his church to expect to be “taken away” before the Tribulation begins. Indeed, he exhorted his church to eagerly anticipate the mansions Jesus had gone to heaven to prepare for them individually, as detailed in John 14.

[seeking the lost]

On 7/29/2017 at 0:08 PM, Zoltan777 said:

Jesus never wanted his disciples to be taken up before the tribulation that happened in 70.a.d.

So why would we think that he wants it now? If he didn't spare his disciples back then why would he do it now? I am just using common sense here but I believe firmly we all need to go all the hardship where most of us will be killed like Jews in the Holocaust.

Also, the Bible says that power will be given to the Antichrist over the God's people and he will kill most of them. But how can it be if there is no Christian left because they  were taken up?

Hi Zoltan777 welcome to the forum

You make some good points.  There is a difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God.  Jesus said in the world that believes would have tribulation.  He said this to prepare them for what was to come.  The Christian life is not without difficulties.  Christians will experience the rage of Satan and there will be many that are killed for their faith.  This is already happening in many parts of the world.  The great tribulation is not yet.  

Those who believe in the pre-wrath rapture do not believe that God can pour out wrath upon the earth while believes are present.  The separate the wheat from the tares which is backwards.  The separation is first the tares are gathered and burned then the wheat is gathered in this is at the time of the harvest. 

Before the wrath is poured out there are angles that mark the people of God.  The instructions are do not harm those who have the seal of God.  

Rev. 7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

The deliverance from wrath is not an exit such as a rapture is the the seal that protects.

On 7/29/2017 at 0:08 PM, Zoltan777 said:

My answer on this matter is very simple and I don't need dig very deep to find something very interesting which came from the mouth of Jesus when he prayed to the Father for his disciples before the Passover.

John: 17. 15. I pray not that you would take them from the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one. 

The protection at this point is not from the evil one.  It is protection from the wrath of God.

[Psalms37:4]

The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine has been around more than 700 years before Paul expounded this theology in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 around 60 AD. This is evidence in the book of Isaiah 26:19-27:1 written around 681 bc -701 bc. Here it's revealed the resurrection of the rapture will take place before God's judgment upon the world. The resurrection first then comes the judgment upon the world.

In verse 20, Isaiah also revealed that God's chosen people will be "hidden" from His wrath.

 

Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

²⁰ Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

²¹ For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

27:1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

 

Written around 625 bc - 635 bc, the prophet Zephaniah confirms God's chosen people will be "hidden" during the time of judgment.

 

Zephaniah 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

1 Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation,

² Before the decree is issued,
Or the day passes like chaff,
Before the Lord’s fierce anger comes upon you,
Before the day of the Lord’s anger comes upon you!

³ Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord’s anger.

 

Jesus also taught the Pre-Trib Rapture!

 

Jesus told His disciples during the Olivet Discourse the rapture will occur before the tribulation. He will come for the church at a time when everyone will be doing everyday normal daily activities: eating, drinking, marrying, and giving into marriage. Not only is this clearly pre-trib, it also refutes all other rapture views if He comes for the church at a time when everyone is doing normal daily activities.

 

Matthew 24:37-39 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ³⁸ For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, ³⁹ and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

Evidence from both Peter and Paul, God will send Jesus to deliver us before God pours out His wrath, and reserve judgment for the ungodly. It would not be salvation if the church has to go through the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th week. 

 

Romans 5:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁹ Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

 

Hebrews 9:28 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁸ so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁹ For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

2 Peter 2:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁹ then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

 

The church is taken into heaven (Hebrews 12:22-24) before God initiates judgment upon the world (Hebrews 12:26) by fire (Hebrews 12:29).

 

Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, ²⁴ to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

²⁵ See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, ²⁶ whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” ²⁷ Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

²⁸ Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. ²⁹ For our God is a consuming fire.