Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[seeking the lost]

11 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine has been around more than 700 years before Paul expounded this theology in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 around 60 AD. This is evidence in the book of Isaiah 26:19-27:1 written around 681 bc -701 bc. Here it's revealed the resurrection of the rapture will take place before God's judgment upon the world. The resurrection first then comes the judgment upon the world.

Hi Psalms 37:4,

The Pre-Trib Rapture requires a resurrection to precede it.  There is not a resurrection before the end of the tribulation.  Revelation 20 gives the time and those included in the two resurrections.  The first is of those who have been faithful unto death, those who have been beheaded.  They are raised at the end of the tribulation for the purpose of reigning. 

20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Do you really want to add a resurrection?

11 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Evidence from both Peter and Paul, God will send Jesus to deliver us before God pours out His wrath, and reserve judgment for the ungodly. It would not be salvation if the church has to go through the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th week. 

For God it is not necessary to take the Church up to avoid wrath.

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

Notice the seal of the living God is upon those who are His upon the earth.  The seal is for protection from wrath not a ticket to exit before wrath.

[Psalms37:4]

7 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Hi Psalms 37:4,

The Pre-Trib Rapture requires a resurrection to precede it.  There is not a resurrection before the end of the tribulation.

Hi Seeking the Lost,

You might have missed what Jesus said in Matthew 24 concerning His comings. It's clearly in two stages: first for the rapture of the church which is clearly before any sort of tribulation upon the earth at a time when everyone will be doing normal daily activities like eating, drinking and marrying. Nowhere in or after the tribulation will you have people in the world doing normal daily tasks.

This is the rapture He spoke of. It's very explicit; the Son of Man comes at a time when the world engages in normal daily routines: eating, drinking, marrying and giving into marriage. This can only happen outside and before the tribulation starts.

Matthew 24:37-39 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ³⁸ For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, ³⁹ and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The second stage of His coming happens at Armageddon which is actually still in the tribulation (Revelation 16:12-16) during the 6th vial, not after the tribulation that most people who adhere to a post-trib rapture view thinks.

 

 

7 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Revelation 20 gives the time and those included in the two resurrections.  The first is of those who have been faithful unto death, those who have been beheaded.  They are raised at the end of the tribulation for the purpose of reigning. 

20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 is a resurrection involving "ONLY" those that dies in the tribulation. Only those that refuse to worship the beast, refuse to take his mark and are beheaded will be resurrected after the tribulation in Revelation 20:4.

Revelation 20:4 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

Read it carefully, Revelation 20:4 actually refutes any possibility of a post-trib rapture, plus it also confirms a pre-trib rapture.

Now if the rapture happens after the tribulation, this would conflict against the resurrection in Revelation 20:4 as that would put two resurrections happening at the same time overlapping each other. This is absolutely illogical!

Why do you need a post-trib rapture if there's already a resurrection planned ahead for those dying in the tribulation?  A post-trib rapture makes no sense if there's already a resurrection in stored for the tribulation martyrs.

Revelation 20:4 only makes sense for the Pre-Trib rapture since those being resurrected will be those that died before the tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 is the resurrection for the dead in Christ over the last 2000 years up till the start of the tribulation. Revelation 20:4 is for all the dead in Christ during the tribulation.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Do you really want to add a resurrection?

You do realize there's more than one resurrection ahead right? There's at least four more resurrections in the future.

You have the resurrection from the rapture (1st Thessalonians 4:16) that happens Pre-Trib as Jesus already stated in Matthew 24. Then you have the resurrection of the two witnesses during the tribulation (Revelation 11:11-12). And finally the resurrection of those that died "only" in the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 20:4.

And after the millennium, the final and biggest resurrection of all time at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13).

 

 

7 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

For God it is not necessary to take the Church up to avoid wrath.

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

Notice the seal of the living God is upon those who are His upon the earth.  The seal is for protection from wrath not a ticket to exit before wrath.

This sounds like you're trying to tell us the church will go through the wrath of God during Daniel's 70th week and everyone will be protected.

I hope this is not the message you're trying to get across because the bible clearly stated that only 144,000 will be seal. That's far short of the number of Christians alive today that makes up the church which is currently about 2.4 billion Christians. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[seeking the lost]

7 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

You might have missed what Jesus said in Matthew 24 concerning His comings. It's clearly in two stages: first for the rapture of the church which is clearly before any sort of tribulation upon the earth at a time when everyone will be doing normal daily activities like eating, drinking and marrying. Nowhere in or after the tribulation will you have people in the world doing normal daily tasks.

This is the rapture He spoke of. It's very explicit; the Son of Man comes at a time when the world engages in normal daily routines: eating, drinking, marrying and giving into marriage. This can only happen outside and before the tribulation starts.

Matthew 24:37-39 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ³⁸ For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, ³⁹ and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The second stage of His coming happens at Armageddon which is actually still in the tribulation (Revelation 16:12-16) during the 6th vial, not after the tribulation that most people who adhere to a post-trib rapture view thinks.

The focus of the rapture that comes after the resurrection is separate from the coming of Jesus.  The only resurrection that is big enough to fit the requirements of the Thessalonians passage is the end of the thousand years.  Believers are raised up at the last day as Jesus taught in John.

John 6:43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Matthew 24 says nothing about a resurrection or a rapture.

8 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Revelation 20:4 is a resurrection involving "ONLY" those that dies in the tribulation. Only those that refuse to worship the beast, refuse to take his mark and are beheaded will be resurrected after the tribulation in Revelation 20:4.

Revelation 20:4 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

You assume that there will be those who will be able to resist the Antichrist during the tribulation period.  They did not believe the truth before but now they really will and stand faithful.  The scripture teaches otherwise. 

2 Thessalonians 2New International Version (NIV)

The Man of Lawlessness

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing.They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Notice verse 11, God sends them powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.  This is refering to all who have not loved the truth when that day begins.

8 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Read it carefully, Revelation 20:4 actually refutes any possibility of a post-trib rapture, plus it also confirms a pre-trib rapture.

Now if the rapture happens after the tribulation, this would conflict against the resurrection in Revelation 20:4 as that would put two resurrections happening at the same time overlapping each other. This is absolutely illogical!

Many of your assumptions are illogical.  The first resurrection is a closed set and non movable as to the time of occurrence.   Because of your assumption that there will be a pre wrath exit you may not be able to see the number that will be faithful to death.  There is a distinction between the wrath of God that believers are marked to avoid and the activity of Antichrist in killing them.  

The first resurrection is of tribulation maryters.  The second is of everybody not included in the first resurrection.  This second resurrection is the last day of John 6. 

Regarding the teaching of Jesus, He taught that the tares will be gathered and burned first.  He does not teach that the wheat will be taken in and then the tares will be dealt with.

The Parable of the Weeds

24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Malachi 4 New International Version (NIV)

Judgment and Covenant Renewal

4 [a]“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

The tares are burned and those ashes are under somebodies feet.  Whos feet are those?

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Hi Seeking the Lost,

You might have missed what Jesus said in Matthew 24 concerning His comings. It's clearly in two stages: first for the rapture of the church which is clearly before any sort of tribulation upon the earth at a time when everyone will be doing normal daily activities like eating, drinking and marrying. Nowhere in or after the tribulation will you have people in the world doing normal daily tasks.

This is the rapture He spoke of. It's very explicit; the Son of Man comes at a time when the world engages in normal daily routines: eating, drinking, marrying and giving into marriage. This can only happen outside and before the tribulation starts.

Matthew 24:37-39 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ³⁸ For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, ³⁹ and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The second stage of His coming happens at Armageddon which is actually still in the tribulation (Revelation 16:12-16) during the 6th vial, not after the tribulation that most people who adhere to a post-trib rapture view thinks.

 

Revelation 20:4 is a resurrection involving "ONLY" those that dies in the tribulation. Only those that refuse to worship the beast, refuse to take his mark and are beheaded will be resurrected after the tribulation in Revelation 20:4.

Revelation 20:4 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

Read it carefully, Revelation 20:4 actually refutes any possibility of a post-trib rapture, plus it also confirms a pre-trib rapture.

Now if the rapture happens after the tribulation, this would conflict against the resurrection in Revelation 20:4 as that would put two resurrections happening at the same time overlapping each other. This is absolutely illogical!

Why do you need a post-trib rapture if there's already a resurrection planned ahead for those dying in the tribulation?  A post-trib rapture makes no sense if there's already a resurrection in stored for the tribulation martyrs.

Revelation 20:4 only makes sense for the Pre-Trib rapture since those being resurrected will be those that died before the tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 is the resurrection for the dead in Christ over the last 2000 years up till the start of the tribulation. Revelation 20:4 is for all the dead in Christ during the tribulation.

 

You do realize there's more than one resurrection ahead right? There's at least four more resurrections in the future.

You have the resurrection from the rapture (1st Thessalonians 4:16) that happens Pre-Trib as Jesus already stated in Matthew 24. Then you have the resurrection of the two witnesses during the tribulation (Revelation 11:11-12). And finally the resurrection of those that died "only" in the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 20:4.

And after the millennium, the final and biggest resurrection of all time at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13).

 

This sounds like you're trying to tell us the church will go through the wrath of God during Daniel's 70th week and everyone will be protected.

I hope this is not the message you're trying to get across because the bible clearly stated that only 144,000 will be seal. That's far short of the number of Christians alive today that makes up the church which is currently about 2.4 billion Christians. 

Shabbat shalom, Psalms37:4 (and to all).

I wonder if your point of view might change if you realized that "soul" means "air-breather." Revelation 20:4 is saying that Yochanan (John) saw the AIR-BREATHERS of those who were beheaded; that is, they were ALIVE again! They were already RESURRECTED! What does that do to your premillennial (or even postmillennial) view of that verse?

[seeking the lost]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

I wonder if your point of view might change if you realized that "soul" means "air-breather." Revelation 20:4 is saying that Yochanan (John) saw the AIR-BREATHERS of those who were beheaded; that is, they were ALIVE again! They were already RESURRECTED! What does that do to your premillennial (or even postmillennial) view of that verse?

They were beheaded and that means they were dead.  The nature of a resurrection as I understand it is the body and the soul /spirit are reunited IE bodily resurrection. They were brought to life to reign with Christ.  This does not change any of my views. 

The time of this resurrection is stated to be at the end of the tribulation.  All others, believers and non believers are raised at the end of the thousand years.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

They were beheaded and that means they were dead.  The nature of a resurrection as I understand it is the body and the soul /spirit are reunited IE bodily resurrection. They were brought to life to reign with Christ.  This does not change any of my views. 

The time of this resurrection is stated to be at the end of the tribulation.  All others, believers and non believers are raised at the end of the thousand years.

Shalom, "seeking the lost."

Actually, resurrection is an act of Creation in which God re-creates the body so that it becomes a "soul" (an "air-breather") once again, having received God's "Spirit" ("wind") as a "puff" in his or her nostrils and beginning "to breathe" on his or her own. The soul is NOT independent of the body! Therefore, the "soul" is the combination of the "body" and the "breath," that "breath" coming from God's "wind."

It's important to remember Yeshua`s words to Marta (Martha):

John 11:23-27
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ (thou art the Messiah), the Son of God, which should come into the world.
KJV

So, it's not so much a hope in a general Resurrection; it's a belief in the MESSIAH YESHUA` who IS the Resurrection! who IS the Life! Resurrection can occur for ANYONE, AT ANY TIME, when Yeshua` says it's their time!
 

Oh, and I forgot to mention the important, key factor in this Resurrection process: The POWERFUL MEMORY of an all-powerful, loving God, YHWH!

Psalm 139:11-18
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
KJV

THAT is how He puts us back together as we were before we died! THAT is how He keeps our continuity of thought and feelings alive!

Oh, and one more thing: Don't you think that THROUGHOUT the Millennium the Messiah (God's Anointed), the Melekh (the King), could perform INDIVIDUAL resurrections? HE is the Resurrection and the Life!

Edited August 6, 2017 by Retrobyter
To add a P.S.

[Psalms37:4]

17 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The focus of the rapture that comes after the resurrection is separate from the coming of Jesus.

Hi seeking the lost,

That's right. The rapture and the second coming are two separate events, separated by 7 years. And don't forget that even thought you seem to believe in a post-trib rapture.

 

17 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The only resurrection that is big enough to fit the requirements of the Thessalonians passage is the end of the thousand years.  Believers are raised up at the last day as Jesus taught in John.

John 6:43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Well first let me say the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4 does NOT happen after the millennium. This is just flat out wrong.

Secondly the scripture in John 6 about the last day has nothing to do with the rapture. But if you wanna debate about the rapture happening on the last day, sure let's talk that too. If the rapture happens on the last day, this would completely refutes a post-trib rapture and slam dunk affirms a pre-trib rapture. 

In a post-trib rapture, theoretically Christians are rapture immediately after the tribulation. After the tribulation is NOT the last day. After the tribulation would be the first day of Christ's millennial reign, the first day of the millennium. 

Only, only, only the pre-trib rapture falls on a last day. This happens on the last day of the church age. The next day is the first day of the tribulation.

 

 

17 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Matthew 24 says nothing about a resurrection or a rapture.

Sure it does.  Are you aware there are two parables Christ spoke of in the Olivet Discourse? The first parable is from Matthew 24:4 to Matthew 24:31. This is a parable about the Second Coming.

The second parable is from Matthew 24:32 to Matthew 24:51. This is parable about the rapture. Read how He starts of in Matthew 24:32, He said learn this parable, this is another parable, instructions for the church on what to do just before He comes for His bride.

Matthew 24:32 New King James Version (NKJV)

³² “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.

 

 

17 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

You assume that there will be those who will be able to resist the Antichrist during the tribulation period.  They did not believe the truth before but now they really will and stand faithful.  The scripture teaches otherwise. 

2 Thessalonians 2New International Version (NIV)

The Man of Lawlessness

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing.They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Notice verse 11, God sends them powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.  This is refering to all who have not loved the truth when that day begins.

Well what can I say? Thank you again for posting more evidences refuting the existence of a post-trib rapture.  This is what you posted on verse 8.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 

So let me ask you this. How can there be a post-trib rapture when Christ comes to earth when the a/c is still alive? Everybody knows the great tribulation ends after the a/c dies, not before.

You make my life easy! 

 

 

17 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The first resurrection is of tribulation maryters.  The second is of everybody not included in the first resurrection.  This second resurrection is the last day of John 6. 

That's not correct. The first resurrection occurs in multiple stages spending over 2000 years, from Matthew 27:50-53 that happened during Christ's death on the cross 2000 years ago to the rapture at 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 for all the Christians that lived the last 2000 years to Revelation 20:4 for all the Christians (new and left behind Christians) that died in the tribulation. All these are resurrected by Christ and rewarded by Him, and to reign with Him.

1st Resurrection (done by Christ)

~ Matthew 27:50-53

~ 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

~ Revelation 20:4

 

2nd Resurrection (done by God to judged before the great White Throne)

~ Revelation 20:12-13

https://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html

 

 

17 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Regarding the teaching of Jesus, He taught that the tares will be gathered and burned first.  He does not teach that the wheat will be taken in and then the tares will be dealt with.

The Parable of the Weeds

24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

 

The parable of the tares and the wheat is NOT about the rapture and has nothing to do with it. 

It's a story about the judgment at the second coming. The tares being gathered to be burned are primary those the reapers will gather for Armageddon (Revelation 16:13-16). The wheats are later gathered to Israel to be with Him in celebration (Jeremiah 32:37-42, Jeremiah 31:8-11, Ezekiel 39:21-29, Ezekiel 11:14-21, Zephaniah 3:8-20, Isaiah 49:8-26, Isaiah 27:12-13, Micah 2:12, Psalm 106:46-47, Amos 9:11-15, Revelation 14:1-5).

Feel free to read all those scriptures I gave you about the gathering after the tribulation. Not a single one mentioned anything about a rapture or resurrection of the dead. The gathering immediately after the tribulation is no different from all other gatherings in the past, God always gathers His people back to Israel after being scattered. After the tribulation, He will bring them back.

Nothing new under the sun ~ Ecclesiastes 1:9

 

17 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Malachi 4 New International Version (NIV)

Judgment and Covenant Renewal

4 [a]“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

The tares are burned and those ashes are under somebodies feet.  Whos feet are those?

LOL, you got the wrong guy! 

The tares are sent to hell to be burn. Who's feet did you think it was?

 

Matthew 13:41-42 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁴¹ The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, ⁴² and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

 

[Psalms37:4]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Psalms37:4 (and to all).

I wonder if your point of view might change if you realized that "soul" means "air-breather." Revelation 20:4 is saying that Yochanan (John) saw the AIR-BREATHERS of those who were beheaded; that is, they were ALIVE again! They were already RESURRECTED! What does that do to your premillennial (or even postmillennial) view of that verse?

Hi Retrobyter,

So you call them air-breathers, John called them souls, some call them spirits while others call them ghosts. They're all synonyms. How does this prove they were already resurrected? 

Need something more concrete to substantiate amillennialism.

 

 

[Zoltan777]

Revelation: 13. 10. "If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed." This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people.

If you read the previous verses it is talking about the beast and his power. It's just a childish dream to believe in rapture that happens before tribulation.

Also, when Jesus was talking about the last days he said the tribulation will start when antichrist image will be placed in the temple to be worshipped: 

Matthew: 24. 15. "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16. then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20. Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.'

He never mentioned that he will take up His people before all these happen. From His instruction it's obvious to me He meant: be careful and stay strong. You have to go through all these.

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Zoltan777

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Hi Retrobyter,

So you call them air-breathers, John called them souls, some call them spirits while others call them ghosts. They're all synonyms. How does this prove they were already resurrected? 

Need something more concrete to substantiate amillennialism.

Shalom, Psalms37:4.

No, not amillennialism; it's still premillennialism.

They are NOT "all synonyms!" Are you that confused? Are you that blind?! It's not "souls" (as most define the term), "spirits," or "ghosts!" They're "AIR-BREATHERS!" They're "BODIES" who breathe air once again on their own initiative! They are ALREADY RESURRECTED!

Don't you get it, yet? They are NO LONGER DEAD!