Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[seeking the lost]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, "seeking the lost."

Actually, resurrection is an act of Creation in which God re-creates the body so that it becomes a "soul" (an "air-breather") once again, having received God's "Spirit" ("wind") as a "puff" in his or her nostrils and beginning "to breathe" on his or her own. The soul is NOT independent of the body! Therefore, the "soul" is the combination of the "body" and the "breath," that "breath" coming from God's "wind."

It's important to remember Yeshua`s words to Marta (Martha):

John 11:23-27
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ (thou art the Messiah), the Son of God, which should come into the world.
KJV

So, it's not so much a hope in a general Resurrection; it's a belief in the MESSIAH YESHUA` who IS the Resurrection! who IS the Life! Resurrection can occur for ANYONE, AT ANY TIME, when Yeshua` says it's their time!
 

Oh, and I forgot to mention the important, key factor in this Resurrection process: The POWERFUL MEMORY of an all-powerful, loving God, YHWH!

Psalm 139:11-18
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
KJV

THAT is how He puts us back together as we were before we died! THAT is how He keeps our continuity of thought and feelings alive!

Oh, and one more thing: Don't you think that THROUGHOUT the Millennium the Messiah (God's Anointed), the Melekh (the King), could perform INDIVIDUAL resurrections? HE is the Resurrection and the Life!

Greetings Retrobyter

You have a very interesting view of those who are referred to as the dead in Christ.  Look at the woirds of this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

Believers Who Have Died

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Do not be uninformed about those who sleep in death.  This is the state of those who are waiting for the resurrection.  I think you are saying that when we die in the Lord we are resurrected.  Is that correct?

Consider these words from 2 Timothy 2:18

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Are you saying the resurrections of those who have died is past?  I say He will raise them up at the last day.  The last day resurrection is defined in this passage from Rev. 20.

Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the time that the books are opened, this is the time of judgement.  There is not a resurrection with judgement before this time.  There is not a time when the book of life is opened, as in judgement, before this.

[seeking the lost]

10 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Well first let me say the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4 does NOT happen after the millennium. This is just flat out wrong.

Greetings Psalms 34:7 

What is flat out wrong is that some teach a pre-resurrection rapture.  I Thessalonians 4 and I Cor 15 seem to be very clear on this point.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice the dead in Christ will rise first.  All I am saying is this is the last day and this is when Jesus will raise believes up.  I Corinthians 15 gives definition to the resurrection as preceding the rapture.  The entire chapter is great for understanding of the resurrection.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The last trumpet is on the last day.  The purpose of the rapture is to take us to the new Heaven and the new earth.  When we go up we will not return to this earth.  This earth will be gone.

10 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

The parable of the tares and the wheat is NOT about the rapture and has nothing to do with it. 

The parable indicates that God does not take the wheat up first, separating them form the tares.  The pretrib position seems to teach this.  Wheat taken up tares dealt wrath

 

10 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

LOL, you got the wrong guy! 

The tares are sent to hell to be burn. Who's feet did you think it was?

 

Read the text carefully.  It says in case you missed it.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Glad you got a good laugh but they the wicked will be under foot.

[Zoltan777]

...

Edited August 6, 2017 by Zoltan777

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Zoltan777 said:

Revelation: 13. 10. "If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed." This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people.

If you read the previous verses it is talking about the beast and his power. It's just a childish dream to believe in rapture that happens before tribulation.

Also, when Jesus was talking about the last days he said the tribulation will start when antichrist image will be placed in the temple to be worshipped: 

Matthew: 24. 15. "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16. then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20. Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.'

He never mentioned that he will take up His people before all these happen. From His instruction it's obvious to me He meant: be careful and stay strong. You have to go through all these.

Shalom, Zoltan777.

First, you need to be made aware that Matthew 24:15-21 is NOT about our future; it was about the DISCIPLES' future there in the first Century A.D! How can you hope to get the right interpretation of Scripture when you start with the wrong premise?! These points were indicative of the Jewish nation in 70 A.D:

1) Fleeing to the mountains would avoid the persecution to follow
2) Fleeing across the rooftops would keep one out of the enemy's crosshairs
3) Staying out of town in the field to avoid the enemy's advances
4) Why, at this time of the Geneva Convention, would it be more dreadful for pregnant and nursing mothers?
5) Why should winter make a difference in this time of cars and trucks with heaters?
6) Who but the Jews would even CARE if this took place on the Shabbat or the Sabbath?!

These points were important in the FIRST Century, NOT THE TWENTY-FIRST!

And, that's the BEST reason why He did not "take up His people before all these happened!" Of COURSE, they had "to go through all these!"

When one does a comparison verse by verse between Matthew 24 and Luke 21, one will discover that Matthew 25:13 compares to Luke 21:20:

Luke 21:20-24
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV

This is talking about the time just before 70 A.D. when the Temple was destroyed and the children of Israel were deported in the Diaspora.

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think the prophecies must be fulfilled in the 'last days.'"

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Greetings Retrobyter

You have a very interesting view of those who are referred to as the dead in Christ.  Look at the woirds of this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

Believers Who Have Died

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Do not be uninformed about those who sleep in death.  This is the state of those who are waiting for the resurrection.  I think you are saying that when we die in the Lord we are resurrected.  Is that correct?

Consider these words from 2 Timothy 2:18

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Are you saying the resurrections of those who have died is past?  I say He will raise them up at the last day.  The last day resurrection is defined in this passage from Rev. 20.

Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the time that the books are opened, this is the time of judgement.  There is not a resurrection with judgement before this time.  There is not a time when the book of life is opened, as in judgement, before this.

Shalom, "seeking the lost."

It's not about "the dead in Christ," or rather, "the dead in the Messiah"; it's about "the souls under the altar!" These "souls" were NO LONGER DEAD! They had already been raised to life!

However, even the dead in Christ are raised to life when the Messiah returns and they will "live and reign with Him for a thousand years (and more)." See Rev. 20:4 and Rev. 22:5.

[Zoltan777]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Zoltan777.

First, you need to be made aware that Matthew 24:15-21 is NOT about our future; it was about the DISCIPLES' future there in the first Century A.D! How can you hope to get the right interpretation of Scripture when you start with the wrong premise?! These points were indicative of the Jewish nation in 70 A.D:

1) Fleeing to the mountains would avoid the persecution to follow
2) Fleeing across the rooftops would keep one out of the enemy's crosshairs
3) Staying out of town in the field to avoid the enemy's advances
4) Why, at this time of the Geneva Convention, would it be more dreadful for pregnant and nursing mothers?
5) Why should winter make a difference in this time of cars and trucks with heaters?
6) Who but the Jews would even CARE if this took place on the Shabbat or the Sabbath?!

These points were important in the FIRST Century, NOT THE TWENTY-FIRST!

And, that's the BEST reason why He did not "take up His people before all these happened!" Of COURSE, they had "to go through all these!"

When one does a comparison verse by verse between Matthew 24 and Luke 21, one will discover that Matthew 25:13 compares to Luke 21:20:

Luke 21:20-24
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV

This is talking about the time just before 70 A.D. when the Temple was destroyed and the children of Israel were deported in the Diaspora.

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think the prophecies must be fulfilled in the 'last days.'"

Jesus was referring to the last days in Matthew 24. You can't separate verses as the whole section is dedicated to explain the last days. Many of His prophecy has come true in 70 A.D. but not all.

Matthew 24.30-31. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth^[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.^[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

If it were true what you are saying why it is not fulfilled? I believe the history repeats itself. His saying was correct in His present time but will be true at the end as well. 

Also, according to these verses EVERYBODY will see Jesus coming back. And after that His people will be collected. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Zoltan777

[Psalms37:4]

14 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

What is flat out wrong is that some teach a pre-resurrection rapture.

Hi seeking the lost,

You should try reading more of the bible because those who teaches a pre-trib rapture are Jesus, Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Isaiah and Zephaniah.

The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine has been around more than 700 years before Paul expounded this theology in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 around 60 AD. This is evidence in the book of Isaiah 26:19-27:1 written around 681 bc -701 bc. Here it's revealed the resurrection of the rapture will take place before God's judgment upon the world. The resurrection first then comes the judgment upon the world.

In verse 20, Isaiah also revealed that God's chosen people will be "hidden" from His wrath.

 

Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

²⁰ Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

²¹ For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

27:1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

 

 

Written around 625 bc - 635 bc, the prophet Zephaniah confirms God's chosen people will be "hidden" during the time of judgment.

 

Zephaniah 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

1 Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation,

² Before the decree is issued,
Or the day passes like chaff,
Before the Lord’s fierce anger comes upon you,
Before the day of the Lord’s anger comes upon you!

³ Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord’s anger.

 

 

Jesus also taught the Pre-Trib Rapture!

 

Jesus told His disciples during the Olivet Discourse the rapture will occur before the tribulation. He will come for the church at a time when everyone will be doing everyday normal daily activities: eating, drinking, marrying, and giving into marriage. Not only is this clearly pre-trib, it also refutes all other rapture views if He comes for the church at a time when everyone is doing normal daily activities.

 

Matthew 24:37-39 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ³⁸ For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, ³⁹ and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

 

Evidence from both Peter and Paul, God will send Jesus to deliver us before God pours out His wrath, and reserve judgment for the ungodly. It would not be salvation if the church has to go through the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th week. 

 

Romans 5:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁹ Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

 

Hebrews 9:28 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁸ so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁹ For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

2 Peter 2:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁹ then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

 

The church is taken into heaven (Hebrews 12:22-24) before God initiates judgment upon the world (Hebrews 12:26) by fire (Hebrews 12:29).

 

Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, ²⁴ to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

²⁵ See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, ²⁶ whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” ²⁷ Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

²⁸ Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. ²⁹ For our God is a consuming fire.

 

 

14 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Notice the dead in Christ will rise first.  All I am saying is this is the last day and this is when Jesus will raise believes up.  I Corinthians 15 gives definition to the resurrection as preceding the rapture.  The entire chapter is great for understanding of the resurrection.

Do you actually know when is the last day Jesus spoke of in John 6? It's not where you think it is. It's given in the bible and you missed it by 3000 years. Plus you'll be shock to find out that 1 Corinthians 15 is not the rapture. Read the entire chapter again. It's not the rapture, but it is a resurrection.

Need a hint? How many resurrections do you know of still in the future?

 

 

14 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The last trumpet is on the last day.  The purpose of the rapture is to take us to the new Heaven and the new earth.  When we go up we will not return to this earth.  This earth will be gone.

No, that's incorrect. The last trumpet is not on the last day. First you need to know when is the last day Christ spoke of and also know what is the last trumpet Paul spoke of.  Concerning the last trumpet, 99% of everyone that studies bible prophecy today all have it wrong. This can easily be proven with the bible.

Please do more studying. You can expedite your progress by not holding onto things you've learned and be open to other ideas.

 

14 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The parable indicates that God does not take the wheat up first, separating them form the tares.  The pretrib position seems to teach this.  Wheat taken up tares dealt wrath

Again I say, the parable of the tare and wheat is not about the rapture.  You're pushing nonsense buddy. And no pre-tribber teaches this either. You're the first person I've ever heard claim this parable about the rapture.

 

 

14 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Read the text carefully.  It says in case you missed it.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Glad you got a good laugh but they the wicked will be under foot.

No, I knew exactly what you posted. I saw the error you made immediately after reading what you had wrote. You posted scriptures from Malachi and than commented on the parable of the tare and the wheat. In case you haven't realized, the word tare is only mentioned in the parable of the wheat and tare in Matthew 13, nowhere else in the bible .  

Basically you either quoted the wrong scripture or chosen poorly the appropriate words to convey your message. But it was still a good laugh. 

 

 

[Psalms37:4]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

They are NOT "all synonyms!" Are you that confused? Are you that blind?! It's not "souls" (as most define the term), "spirits," or "ghosts!" They're "AIR-BREATHERS!" They're "BODIES" who breathe air once again on their own initiative! They are ALREADY RESURRECTED!

Don't you get it, yet? They are NO LONGER DEAD!

You need to watch your mouth calling others blind considering that John had actually used the word "soul" in Revelation 20:4 and not "air-breathers."

Revelation 20:4 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

It's usually a sign a person cannot support his argument when they have to resort to flaming others with condescending remarks. 

 

https://www.wordnik.com/words/air-breather

air-breather

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from The Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia

• n. An animal which breathes air; specifically, a marine animal breathing out of water by means of lungs, instead of under water by means of gills.

I double John was referring to air-breathers when he said soul as Christ isn't planning to have animals reign with Him over mankind the next 1000 years.

 

 

 

[Psalms37:4]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's not about "the dead in Christ," or rather, "the dead in the Messiah"; it's about "the souls under the altar!" These "souls" were NO LONGER DEAD! They had already been raised to life!

They're not souls, they're air-breathers. Take it from a preterist name Retrobyter.

[Psalms37:4]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Luke 21:20-24
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV

This is talking about the time just before 70 A.D. when the Temple was destroyed and the children of Israel were deported in the Diaspora.

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think the prophecies must be fulfilled in the 'last days.'"

Excuse me. You left out verses 25-27. You know, the verses describing Jesus' second coming.  Did this happened in 70 AD also?

 

Luke 21:25-27 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁵ “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; ²⁶ men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ²⁷ Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.