Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[seeking the lost]

5 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Again I say, the parable of the tare and wheat is not about the rapture.  You're pushing nonsense buddy. And no pre-tribber teaches this either. You're the first person I've ever heard claim this parable about the rapture.

You are correct because there is no pre tribulation rapture.  It is about the end of the age and the harvest.  The angles are instructed to throw those appointed unto wrath into the winepress.  This is harvest time.

 

Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the templeand called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvestof the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

[seeking the lost]

5 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

No, I knew exactly what you posted. I saw the error you made immediately after reading what you had wrote. You posted scriptures from Malachi and than commented on the parable of the tare and the wheat. In case you haven't realized, the word tare is only mentioned in the parable of the wheat and tare in Matthew 13, nowhere else in the bible .  

Did you know that the word rapture does not occur in the Bible?  The number of times listed is not the important qualifier it is qualified in that it is the Word of God.

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

You need to watch your mouth calling others blind considering that John had actually used the word "soul" in Revelation 20:4 and not "air-breathers."

Revelation 20:4 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

It's usually a sign a person cannot support his argument when they have to resort to flaming others with condescending remarks. 

 

https://www.wordnik.com/words/air-breather

air-breather

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Definitions

from The Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia

• n. An animal which breathes air; specifically, a marine animal breathing out of water by means of lungs, instead of under water by means of gills.

I doubt John was referring to air-breathers when he said soul as Christ isn't planning to have animals reign with Him over mankind the next 1000 years.

Shalom, Psalms37:4.

When someone is looking right at a truth in Scripture and can't see that truth, what do YOU call it? I call it "blindness."

I'm not trying to be mean; I'm just calling a spade a spade.

Look, I'll try to spell it out for you ... AGAIN. First, don't limit yourself to a limited definition of the term "air-breather." An "air-breather" is "ANY CREATURE (CREATED BEING) that breathes air!" That includes MAN!

Genesis 2:7 says,

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

This is the first occurrence of the word "soul," and it is also the FIFTH occurrence of the Hebrew word "nefesh" which was translated as "soul." Here are the first four:

Genesis 1:20
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
KJV
Genesis 1:21
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
KJV
Genesis 1:24
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
KJV
Genesis 1:30
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
KJV

The words that are in bold-faced type are the words translated from "nefesh."

The Hebrew word "nefesh" is said to mean,

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

This is the noun form of the verb naafash:

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Both words are technically spelled the same in Hebrew, "nun-fei-shin." However, with vowel pointing, OT:5315 is spelled "nun-segol-fei-segol-shin," and OT:5314 is spelled "nun-qamets-fei-patach-shin." (Also, "nun" is pronounced "noon," "fei" is pronounced "fay," and "shin" is pronounced "sheen.")

Which is more important, the Hebrew word in the original text or the English word used to translate that Hebrew word into English versions?  The ORIGINAL manuscript was declared to be inspired by God. NO English translation, no matter how good it is, is declared to be inspired! To the contrary, EVERY English translation (or translation into ANY other language) is GUARANTEED to have errors because it is a product of human beings!

Now, this verse, Genesis 2:7, is one of the few verses that are directly quoted into the New Testament's Greek:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV

And, this word "soul" is translated from the Greek word "psucheen," the accusative form of "psuchee," spelled "psi-upsilon-chi-eta":

NT:5590 psuchee (psoo-khay'); from NT:5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from NT:4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from NT:2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew OT:5315, OT:7307 and OT:2416):
KJV - heart (+-ily), life, mind, soul,  us,  you.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And, again, this is the noun form of the verb psuchoo, technically meaning "I-breathe":

NT:5594 psuchoo (psoo'-kho); a primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from NT:4154, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of NT:109, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
KJV - wax cold.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
 

So, the Greek of the New Testament reflects the Hebrew of the Old Testament, and BOTH words mean "a breathing creature," "a breather," or more specifically, "an air-breather."

Like it or not, that's the way it is! This is not subjective, open to interpretation. It is OBJECTIVE and ABSOLUTE! And, that's the word (in plural) that was used in Revelation 20:4, psuchas. If you don't like it, tough. That's the way it is ... PERIOD. These "souls" or "air-breathers" are already BREATHING AIR!

Yochanan (John), who was a Jew himself, probably used the Aramaic or Hebrew word "nfashiym," the plural form of "nefesh." He certainly did NOT use the English word "souls!"

Edited August 8, 2017 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Excuse me. You left out verses 25-27. You know, the verses describing Jesus' second coming.  Did this happened in 70 AD also?

Luke 21:25-27 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁵ “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; ²⁶ men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ²⁷ Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

16 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

They're not souls, they're air-breathers. Take it from a preterist name Retrobyter.

Shalom, again, Psalms37:4.

First, let's get one thing straight, name-caller: I am NOT a "preterist," in the sense of a "full preterist." I am a "PARTIAL preterist," and I would appreciate you calling me such. It's an IMPORTANT DISTINCTION!

Second, you need to see that the key to understanding the Olivet Discourse is in the GREEK PRONOUNS. The reason why I did not include Luke 21:25-27 is because the pronouns CHANGED by then! When Yeshua` was talking directly to His students, His disciples, he addressed them directly with the pronouns translated into Greek as "humeis" and the various forms of that word.

When the pronouns are second-person plural, He is talking directly to His students about THEIR immediate future (1st Century); when He is talking with other pronouns, such as "THEY" in verse 27 above, He is talking about the DISTANT FUTURE (21st Century or beyond).

[Psalms37:4]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

When someone is looking right at a truth in Scripture and can't see that truth, what do YOU call it? I call it "blindness."

I'm not trying to be mean; I'm just calling a spade a spade.

Look, I'll try to spell it out for you ... AGAIN. First, don't limit yourself to a limited definition of the term "air-breather." An "air-breather" is "ANY CREATURE (CREATED BEING) that breathes air!" That includes MAN!

I disagree. I notice when you look at the bible, you don't see the truth, you see a bunch of nonsense you made up to replace the truth. I'm not trying to mean either, I'm just telling you the truth. 

Here's another truth. You like to call others blind for not accepting things you made up contrary to the bible. And you expect people to believe you without giving any shred of evidence, otherwise they're blind. You might think we're blind but we think you're just pure ignorant. And I've read your Mass Transit Rapture thread. You just don't seem to get it when others are trying to tell you something in that thread. It's just pure ignorance.

Here's more evidence of you nonsense. The word air-breather wasn't invented until the mid 19th century. How can John be calling the souls in Revelation 20:4 air-breathers if the word wasn't even invented? Plus when the word was created, it was used to describe only animals, not humans. I think it's about time you get the facts straight and your head out of the sand.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just calling  a spade a spade. 

air breather

NOUN

An animal that breathes air.

Origin

Mid 19th century; earliest use found in Todd's Cyclopaedia of Anatomy and Physiology. From air + breather, after air-breathing.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/air_breather

 

 

 

Quote

Genesis 2:7 says,

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

This is the first occurrence of the word "soul," and it is also the FIFTH occurrence of the Hebrew word "nefesh" which was translated as "soul." Here are the first four:

Genesis 1:20
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
KJV
Genesis 1:21
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
KJV
Genesis 1:24
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
KJV
Genesis 1:30
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
KJV

The words that are in bold-faced type are the words translated from "nefesh."

The Hebrew word "nefesh" is said to mean,

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

This is the noun form of the verb naafash:

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Both words are technically spelled the same in Hebrew, "nun-fei-shin." However, with vowel pointing, OT:5315 is spelled "nun-segol-fei-segol-shin," and OT:5314 is spelled "nun-qamets-fei-patach-shin." (Also, "nun" is pronounced "noon," "fei" is pronounced "fay," and "shin" is pronounced "sheen.")

Which is more important, the Hebrew word in the original text or the English word used to translate that Hebrew word into English versions?  The ORIGINAL manuscript was declared to be inspired by God. NO English translation, no matter how good it is, is declared to be inspired! To the contrary, EVERY English translation (or translation into ANY other language) is GUARANTEED to have errors because it is a product of human beings!

Now, this verse, Genesis 2:7, is one of the few verses that are directly quoted into the New Testament's Greek:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV

And, this word "soul" is translated from the Greek word "psucheen," the accusative form of "psuchee," spelled "psi-upsilon-chi-eta":

NT:5590 psuchee (psoo-khay'); from NT:5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from NT:4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from NT:2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew OT:5315, OT:7307 and OT:2416):
KJV - heart (+-ily), life, mind, soul,  us,  you.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And, again, this is the noun form of the verb psuchoo, technically meaning "I-breathe":

NT:5594 psuchoo (psoo'-kho); a primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from NT:4154, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of NT:109, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
KJV - wax cold.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
 

So, the Greek of the New Testament reflects the Hebrew of the Old Testament, and BOTH words mean "a breathing creature," "a breather," or more specifically, "an air-breather."

Like it or not, that's the way it is! This is not subjective, open to interpretation. It is OBJECTIVE and ABSOLUTE! And, that's the word (in plural) that was used in Revelation 20:4, psuchas. If you don't like it, tough. That's the way it is ... PERIOD. These "souls" or "air-breathers" are already BREATHING AIR!

Yochanan (John), who was a Jew himself, probably used the Aramaic or Hebrew word "nfashiym," the plural form of "nefesh." He certainly did NOT use the English word "souls!"

THE PROBLEM OF USING STRONG’S CONCORDANCE DICTIONARY ~ GREEK WORDS ~ WORD STUDIES ~ AND GREEK DICTIONARIES

Strong’s Concordance and Dictionary
One thing that many believers do concerning the handling of Greek words is use Strong’s Concordance’s Dictionary to translate Greek words – this is not only a fundamental error, but can lead to devastating conclusions regarding the misunderstanding of many Greek words. 

Language Roots
This is because Strong’s dictionary is not specific to any particular word within any particular passage, it is generic based only upon Greek roots, and cannot be used in word studies of any Greek words found in the Greek New Testament.

It is in understanding that the Koiné (“common”) Greek language uses many cognates (see Footnote #1) which in spite of utilizing the same root words, derive diverse meanings based upon the grammar; especially verbs concerning their tense, voice, and mood.

All languages combine words to express diverse meaning, wherein the Greek language abounds in this practice.  This is what makes the effort to record a concordance of every book in the Bible so difficult.  

As stated in the preface to Strong’s concordance and dictionary, his dictionary is a root dictionary wherein many words are not actually spelled as listed in their root meaning when you look them up in a Greek New Testament.  

This difficulty is noted when utilizing an interlinear where the English words are recorded beneath the Greek text, giving the reader the opportunity to see the exact spelling of any specific word used, which a majority of the time is different than found in Strong’s root dictionary.   (Please see Endnote #2) 

I have used the word root to make the point obvious that this Greek dictionary was never meant to be a specific dictionary concerning precise words and their exact meaning, which is determined within the passage wherein the parsing of the exact word and is noted because of the diverse spelling concerning such tools as prefix and suffix, and the grammatical breakdown of the verbs into their delineation, as well as the case forms, of which there are five; nominative, vocative, accusative, genitive, or dative.

If a concordance was assembled, which listed all the variances of all the words to their exact meaning within just the Greek New Testament, it would be hundreds of thousands of pages long because of the diversity of words from their original root meaning to the specific meaning of that word with in a specific passage.  

Therefore, a manageable concordance could only be based upon the root words, but as James Strong says himself in his preface, his dictionary was never meant for Word study.

Word study by its very nature must break down passages according to their delineation which is specific to that passage alone, meaning that a concordance would have to list many individual passages, since a majority of words are changed in their spelling from one passage to the next.  

The deviations may be slight in most cases, but the ramifications can be enormous.

Example ~ Judgment
Because of the diversity of combining words and the slightly different spellings wherein there may be over a half a dozen different Greek words, such as the word “judge,” which is translated into only one English word, but has a range of meaning from judging unto condemnation, which is condemned in the Bible and only allowed for the creator God to do, as compared to discernment like when Paul chides the Corinthians for not being able to exercise proper biblical judgment. 

How often do we hear Christians misquote Scriptures concerning judging, advising others to NOT judge them, even as they openly sin, which is the opposite that is taught in God’s Word?  

For example, the first chapter of Romans is inaccurately used to tell Christians not to judge, when the immediate biblical context is speaking about unbelievers judging others, not believers.  

There are more warnings to exercise proper biblical judgment by far than warnings not to judge.

In many passages the subject cautions against judging regarding the manner or mindset of judging, or the spiritual state of the individual making the observation.  We are NOT told to NOT point out a “speck in our brothers eye,” but to make sure that we deal with the beam in our own eye first. 

Discernment is a requirement for human existence, but even more so for a born-again believer.  It’s not merely knowing  the difference between good and evil, it is also avoiding the rationalization that moves us from good to evil via shades of grey.  Many times the enemy of the good is not evil, but second best, when it takes pre-eminence over what is best.  

The Reason for a Lack of Discernment
Yet, because we have ONLY one English word for “judge,” as compared to the half a dozen in the Greek New Testament, the word “judgement” as used in the English translations is misused and misunderstood; and now we have a whole generation of believers that misunderstand God’s command for us to discern the world around us to the extent that now believers live milquetoast lives because of their inability to exercise godly judgment as seen in Hebrews 5:11-14, where the writer of the book of Hebrews connects the fact that believers cannot indulge in the meat of the word of God because they refused to exercise proper biblical judgment over good and evil, and therefore can only stand the milk of the word.

King James Translation (KJV)

“Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”  (Hebrews 5:11-14 ~ KJV) 

Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (LITV)

“Concerning whom we have much discourse, and hard to interpret, or to speak, since you have come to be dull in the hearings. For indeed because of the time you are due to be teachers, yet you need to have someone to teach you again the rudiments of the beginning of the Words of God, and you came to be having need of milk, and not of solid food; for everyone partaking of milk is without experience in the Word of Righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for those full grown, having exercised the faculties through habit, for distinction of both good and bad.”  (Hebrews 5:11-14 ~ Literal Translation of the Holy Bible [LITV], By: Jay P. Green, Sr., who only uses Textus Receptus or Majority Text.)

Lexham English Bible (LEB)

Advanced Teaching Hindered by Immaturity
“Concerning this [a] we have much to say and it is difficult to explain , since you have become sluggish in hearing. For indeed, although you [c]ought to be teachers by this time [d], you have need of someone to teach you again the beginning elements of the oracles of God, and you have need of [e] milk, not [f] solid food. For everyone who partakes of milk is unacquainted with the message of righteousness, because he is an infant.But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have trained their faculties for the distinguishing of both good and evil.” (Hebrews 5:11-14 ~ Lexham English Bible [LEB], By: Logos Bible Software)

Footnotes:
a: Hebrews 5:11 Literally “which”
b: Hebrews 5:11 Literally “great for us the message and hard to explain to say”
c: Hebrews 5:12 Here “although” is supplied as a component of the participle (“ought”) which is understood as concessive”
d: Hebrews 5:12 Literally “because of the time”
e: Hebrews 5:12 Literally “you are having need of”
f: Hebrews 5:12 Some manuscripts have “and not”

This great misunderstanding has created more false doctrine in churches because we have used root dictionaries to define words within a passage, which do not give us the exact meaning of God’s will concerning that word as seen in Greek or Hebrew word studies.

Ministers Using Strong’s Dictionary
I cannot tell you of how many times I have heard ministers using definitions of Greek words from Strong’s dictionary, and doing so incorrectly as opposed to actually doing the hard work of parsing the Greek and learning how to do so correctly.  

Strong’s is never meant to be preached from.  It is meant to locate passages in the Bible if you know only one word in that passage, but even many of the current hybrid Strong’s Greek dictionaries still display the same problem with presenting only root words.  

Ministers should be using only Greek New Testaments, or excellent Word Studies that go into great depth, and even Vines doesn’t hold up to this standard many times.  

Strong’s contribution, which utilized over a 100 contributors is a fantastic tool in locating passages, especially understanding when it was created over 100 years ago before the use of computers.  

And the dictionaries in the back are only meant to be a general guide, which he notes in the preface, that no one ever reads; explaining that it is a root dictionary.

James Strong was NOT a Linguist that understood Biblical Languages 
Though James Strong was a professor, he was NOT a professor in Greek or Hebrew, and was not fluent in these languages, he received nothing but a summary introduction education in these languages.  And his credentials as a Doctorate of theology are only honorary; even though he became a professor of Biblical Literature and Exegetical Theology at Troy University and Drew theological seminary in New York.  

It appears that his highest earned degree was a Masters (Not in biblical languages, but generic in theology), wherein he was the valedictorian of his graduating class.  He was given (Not earned) three honors doctorates (Dr. of Divinity, Dr. of sacred theology, and Dr. of laws) degrees (not based upon academia, studies; meaning they were NOT earned), because of his reputation as a professor and his writings; none concerning biblical language.

 

https://faithbibleministriesblog.com/2015/08/14/strongs-concordance-greek-words-word-studies-greek-dictionary/

 

That's why I get my teachings of God's word directly from the bible, and not read another man's interpretation of what he thinks the bible meant. God is not the author of confusing, if the bible say soul, it means soul and not air-breathers.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

First, let's get one thing straight, name-caller: I am NOT a "preterist," in the sense of a "full preterist." I am a "PARTIAL preterist," and I would appreciate you calling me such. It's an IMPORTANT DISTINCTION!

I don't think anyone cares. It doesn't make a difference if you're partial or full, you're still wrong.  Just like assuming me calling you a "full preterist" when I only called you a preterist. 

 

 

Quote

Second, you need to see that the key to understanding the Olivet Discourse is in the GREEK PRONOUNS. The reason why I did not include Luke 21:25-27 is because the pronouns CHANGED by then! When Yeshua` was talking directly to His students, His disciples, he addressed them directly with the pronouns translated into Greek as "humeis" and the various forms of that word.

When the pronouns are second-person plural, He is talking directly to His students about THEIR immediate future (1st Century); when He is talking with other pronouns, such as "THEY" in verse 27 above, He is talking about the DISTANT FUTURE (21st Century or beyond).

No, the reason why you left out Luke 21:25-27 was because you can't prove the second coming happened in 70 AD. 

The disciples asked Jesus what are the signs of His coming and the end of the age. Jesus went on and told them all the things that are to happen just before His return. Do you understand what this means? It means all those signs He spoke of in the discourse are to happen just before His return, not at 70 AD. They also asked Him for the signs of the end of the age. 

Was 70 AD the end of the age? Did Christ returned in 70 AD? No and no! So throw all that preterist nonsense out the window. 

Just before Christ's coming, all those prophecies He spoke off will be fulfill, not partial, but all, every verse in the discourse will be completed just before His return.

So again, why would Jesus prophesied about 70 AD when they asked Him for signs of His return and the end times?

 

 

  

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

19 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

You are correct because there is no pre tribulation rapture.

So what do you do with all those scriptures I gave you: Isaiah 26:19-27:1, Zephaniah 2:1-3, Matthew 24:37-39, Romans 5:9, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 2 Peter 2:9 and Hebrews 12:22-29, just throw them out the window since they don't line up to your belief? 

 

 

19 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

It is about the end of the age and the harvest.  The angles are instructed to throw those appointed unto wrath into the winepress.  This is harvest time.

Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the templeand called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvestof the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Yes and did you know the harvest is also mentioned the book of Joel and it also reveals the Lord coming in two stages, one before the tribulation and the other the second coming near the end of the tribulation?

[Psalms37:4]

19 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Did you know that the word rapture does not occur in the Bible?  The number of times listed is not the important qualifier it is qualified in that it is the Word of God.

Yes but when it comes to things like bible prophecy, many people don't adhere to the Word of God. What good are God's words if many Christians don't accept every word from God? The pre-trib rapture is found in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, Zephaniah 2:1-3, Matthew 24:37-39, Romans 5:9, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 2 Peter 2:9 and Hebrews 12:22-29. Have you accepted this yet?

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

I disagree. I notice when you look at the bible, you don't see the truth, you see a bunch of nonsense you made up to replace the truth. I'm not trying to mean either, I'm just telling you the truth. 

Here's another truth. You like to call others blind for not accepting things you made up contrary to the bible. And you expect people to believe you without giving any shred of evidence, otherwise they're blind. You might think we're blind but we think you're just pure ignorant. And I've read your Mass Transit Rapture thread. You just don't seem to get it when others are trying to tell you something in that thread. It's just pure ignorance.

Here's more evidence of you nonsense. The word air-breather wasn't invented until the mid 19th century. How can John be calling the souls in Revelation 20:4 air-breathers if the word wasn't even invented? Plus when the word was created, it was used to describe only animals, not humans. I think it's about time you get the facts straight and your head out of the sand.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just calling  a spade a spade. 

air breather

NOUN

An animal that breathes air.

Origin

Mid 19th century; earliest use found in Todd's Cyclopaedia of Anatomy and Physiology. From air + breather, after air-breathing.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/air_breather

 

 

 

THE PROBLEM OF USING STRONG’S CONCORDANCE DICTIONARY ~ GREEK WORDS ~ WORD STUDIES ~ AND GREEK DICTIONARIES

Strong’s Concordance and Dictionary
One thing that many believers do concerning the handling of Greek words is use Strong’s Concordance’s Dictionary to translate Greek words – this is not only a fundamental error, but can lead to devastating conclusions regarding the misunderstanding of many Greek words. 

Language Roots
This is because Strong’s dictionary is not specific to any particular word within any particular passage, it is generic based only upon Greek roots, and cannot be used in word studies of any Greek words found in the Greek New Testament.

It is in understanding that the Koiné (“common”) Greek language uses many cognates (see Footnote #1) which in spite of utilizing the same root words, derive diverse meanings based upon the grammar; especially verbs concerning their tense, voice, and mood.

All languages combine words to express diverse meaning, wherein the Greek language abounds in this practice.  This is what makes the effort to record a concordance of every book in the Bible so difficult.  

As stated in the preface to Strong’s concordance and dictionary, his dictionary is a root dictionary wherein many words are not actually spelled as listed in their root meaning when you look them up in a Greek New Testament.  

This difficulty is noted when utilizing an interlinear where the English words are recorded beneath the Greek text, giving the reader the opportunity to see the exact spelling of any specific word used, which a majority of the time is different than found in Strong’s root dictionary.   (Please see Endnote #2) 

I have used the word root to make the point obvious that this Greek dictionary was never meant to be a specific dictionary concerning precise words and their exact meaning, which is determined within the passage wherein the parsing of the exact word and is noted because of the diverse spelling concerning such tools as prefix and suffix, and the grammatical breakdown of the verbs into their delineation, as well as the case forms, of which there are five; nominative, vocative, accusative, genitive, or dative.

If a concordance was assembled, which listed all the variances of all the words to their exact meaning within just the Greek New Testament, it would be hundreds of thousands of pages long because of the diversity of words from their original root meaning to the specific meaning of that word with in a specific passage.  

Therefore, a manageable concordance could only be based upon the root words, but as James Strong says himself in his preface, his dictionary was never meant for Word study.

Word study by its very nature must break down passages according to their delineation which is specific to that passage alone, meaning that a concordance would have to list many individual passages, since a majority of words are changed in their spelling from one passage to the next.  

The deviations may be slight in most cases, but the ramifications can be enormous.

Example ~ Judgment
Because of the diversity of combining words and the slightly different spellings wherein there may be over a half a dozen different Greek words, such as the word “judge,” which is translated into only one English word, but has a range of meaning from judging unto condemnation, which is condemned in the Bible and only allowed for the creator God to do, as compared to discernment like when Paul chides the Corinthians for not being able to exercise proper biblical judgment. 

How often do we hear Christians misquote Scriptures concerning judging, advising others to NOT judge them, even as they openly sin, which is the opposite that is taught in God’s Word?  

For example, the first chapter of Romans is inaccurately used to tell Christians not to judge, when the immediate biblical context is speaking about unbelievers judging others, not believers.  

There are more warnings to exercise proper biblical judgment by far than warnings not to judge.

In many passages the subject cautions against judging regarding the manner or mindset of judging, or the spiritual state of the individual making the observation.  We are NOT told to NOT point out a “speck in our brothers eye,” but to make sure that we deal with the beam in our own eye first. 

Discernment is a requirement for human existence, but even more so for a born-again believer.  It’s not merely knowing  the difference between good and evil, it is also avoiding the rationalization that moves us from good to evil via shades of grey.  Many times the enemy of the good is not evil, but second best, when it takes pre-eminence over what is best.  

The Reason for a Lack of Discernment
Yet, because we have ONLY one English word for “judge,” as compared to the half a dozen in the Greek New Testament, the word “judgement” as used in the English translations is misused and misunderstood; and now we have a whole generation of believers that misunderstand God’s command for us to discern the world around us to the extent that now believers live milquetoast lives because of their inability to exercise godly judgment as seen in Hebrews 5:11-14, where the writer of the book of Hebrews connects the fact that believers cannot indulge in the meat of the word of God because they refused to exercise proper biblical judgment over good and evil, and therefore can only stand the milk of the word.

King James Translation (KJV)

“Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”  (Hebrews 5:11-14 ~ KJV) 

Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (LITV)

“Concerning whom we have much discourse, and hard to interpret, or to speak, since you have come to be dull in the hearings. For indeed because of the time you are due to be teachers, yet you need to have someone to teach you again the rudiments of the beginning of the Words of God, and you came to be having need of milk, and not of solid food; for everyone partaking of milk is without experience in the Word of Righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for those full grown, having exercised the faculties through habit, for distinction of both good and bad.”  (Hebrews 5:11-14 ~ Literal Translation of the Holy Bible [LITV], By: Jay P. Green, Sr., who only uses Textus Receptus or Majority Text.)

Lexham English Bible (LEB)

Advanced Teaching Hindered by Immaturity
“Concerning this [a] we have much to say and it is difficult to explain , since you have become sluggish in hearing. For indeed, although you [c]ought to be teachers by this time [d], you have need of someone to teach you again the beginning elements of the oracles of God, and you have need of [e] milk, not [f] solid food. For everyone who partakes of milk is unacquainted with the message of righteousness, because he is an infant.But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have trained their faculties for the distinguishing of both good and evil.” (Hebrews 5:11-14 ~ Lexham English Bible [LEB], By: Logos Bible Software)

Footnotes:
a: Hebrews 5:11 Literally “which”
b: Hebrews 5:11 Literally “great for us the message and hard to explain to say”
c: Hebrews 5:12 Here “although” is supplied as a component of the participle (“ought”) which is understood as concessive”
d: Hebrews 5:12 Literally “because of the time”
e: Hebrews 5:12 Literally “you are having need of”
f: Hebrews 5:12 Some manuscripts have “and not”

This great misunderstanding has created more false doctrine in churches because we have used root dictionaries to define words within a passage, which do not give us the exact meaning of God’s will concerning that word as seen in Greek or Hebrew word studies.

Ministers Using Strong’s Dictionary
I cannot tell you of how many times I have heard ministers using definitions of Greek words from Strong’s dictionary, and doing so incorrectly as opposed to actually doing the hard work of parsing the Greek and learning how to do so correctly.  

Strong’s is never meant to be preached from.  It is meant to locate passages in the Bible if you know only one word in that passage, but even many of the current hybrid Strong’s Greek dictionaries still display the same problem with presenting only root words.  

Ministers should be using only Greek New Testaments, or excellent Word Studies that go into great depth, and even Vines doesn’t hold up to this standard many times.  

Strong’s contribution, which utilized over a 100 contributors is a fantastic tool in locating passages, especially understanding when it was created over 100 years ago before the use of computers.  

And the dictionaries in the back are only meant to be a general guide, which he notes in the preface, that no one ever reads; explaining that it is a root dictionary.

James Strong was NOT a Linguist that understood Biblical Languages 
Though James Strong was a professor, he was NOT a professor in Greek or Hebrew, and was not fluent in these languages, he received nothing but a summary introduction education in these languages.  And his credentials as a Doctorate of theology are only honorary; even though he became a professor of Biblical Literature and Exegetical Theology at Troy University and Drew theological seminary in New York.  

It appears that his highest earned degree was a Masters (Not in biblical languages, but generic in theology), wherein he was the valedictorian of his graduating class.  He was given (Not earned) three honors doctorates (Dr. of Divinity, Dr. of sacred theology, and Dr. of laws) degrees (not based upon academia, studies; meaning they were NOT earned), because of his reputation as a professor and his writings; none concerning biblical language.

 

https://faithbibleministriesblog.com/2015/08/14/strongs-concordance-greek-words-word-studies-greek-dictionary/

 

That's why I get my teachings of God's word directly from the bible, and not read another man's interpretation of what he thinks the bible meant. God is not the author of confusing, if the bible say soul, it means soul and not air-breathers.   

Shalom, Psalms37:4.

Blah, blah, blah. All that to say, "I'm not listening.... It's 'souls!'"

If you think I base everything on the Greek Dictionary from Strong's Concordance, you are GREATLY MISTAKEN. I know the limitations of Strong's, for ALL human works are fallible, no exceptions! I use it solely as a "common denominator" between reasoning philosophies. Those who have not studied the original languages will have at least a rudimentary acceptance of Strong's Concordance and its dictionaries and be able to use the numbering system (which is used between several study helps based on the King James Authorized Version of the Bible) to look up the words for themselves and confirm what I'm claiming.

HOWEVER, there's no cure for stubbornness. One must have a teachable mind to learn a thing. That's fine; we all learn at different rates as the Holy Spirit reveals truth to us. It's just not your time, yet.

[seeking the lost]

14 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Yes but when it comes to things like bible prophecy, many people don't adhere to the Word of God. What good are God's words if many Christians don't accept every word from God? The pre-trib rapture is found in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, Zephaniah 2:1-3, Matthew 24:37-39, Romans 5:9, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 2 Peter 2:9 and Hebrews 12:22-29. Have you accepted this yet?

The most important thing in this regard is to accept the Word without additions or alterations.  There is a warning about that, like receiving all the curses of the book.

Rev. 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

The texts that you site as referring to a pre-trib rapture is reading into the text and not drawing out of the text. 

You seem to think that because tares are only mentioned once in the teaching of Jesus is not important but the pre-tribulation rapture which is not mentioned is very scriptural.  Is that correct?