Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[seeking the lost]

On 8/10/2017 at 11:31 PM, Montana Marv said:

The First Resurrection is the resurrection of the Just, all the Just.  An individual either partakes in the Resurrection of the Just (first) or a Resurrection (second) of the Unjust.  There you have it or do you.  When does the Resurrection of the Just from Adam to Jesus Christ occur.  When does the Resurrection of  the Just of Israel occur.  When does the Resurrection the Bride occur.  When does the Resurrection of the Post Mill population (Just) who did not follow Satan occur.

The Ball is now in Your court.

Believers and unbelievers are raised up at the same time on the last day when the books are opened.  The books are not opened before this time.  I know many teach that but I do not find it in the text.  Maybe you can help me on that.  Could you show me where the books are opened before that time?

Jesue said of those who believe in Him that He would raise them up at the last day frcorded for us in John 6.

 35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

In Revelation 20 there is a record of the books being opened.  It is here that the book of life is opened and names of those recorded are not thrown into the lake of fire.  Those who do not have their name recorded will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

The Judgment of the Dead

¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.¹⁵ Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here are both the just and the unjust in the Judgment.  

[Retrobyter]

On 8/10/2017 at 0:54 PM, Montana Marv said:

If what you say is true, then Scripture is Wrong.  Scripture says we as the Bride will reign with Him (2 Tim 2:12).  Those souls under the altar (those beheaded) will reign with Christ for a 1000 years (Rev 20:4)  But, yes the wheat and tares process takes place after the Mill.  This is where the tares are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.  The Bema seat of Christ is where rewards are given to Believers (Bride): This happens before the Mill.

There are a resurrection for the living (called the first) and there is a resurrection for the dead (called the second).  All are not resurrected at the same time.  The dead in Christ and those of us who remain are Harpozo (Raptured first to go into the Fathers House per (John 14:1-4). This is a resurrection (first).  Those who make it out of the Mill, those who do not follow Satan will also be resurrected (first). And for Israel, Dan 12:13 -  go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of those days you will rise to receive your allotted Inheritance, a resurrection (first) happening at the onset of the Mill.

The Second Resurrection happens after the Mill, when the Books are opened.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Shabbat shalom, Montana Marv.

You said, "Scripture says we as the Bride will reign with Him (2 Tim 2:12)," but you need to consider a few things: First, was Paul actually talking about "the Bride?"

2 Timothy 2:8-13
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David (the Messiah from the seed of David) was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ (the Messiah) Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
KJV

Was he talking about "the church" or about "the elect," the "chosen seed?!" (Like the song "All Hail the Power" says, "Ye chosen seed of Israel's race....") Was he talking about the "bride of Christ" or was he talking about the "children of Israel?" Who was Paul if not a (grand)son of Israel? And, Timotheos, a son of his mother and grandmother, who were Jewesses, was also considered a (grand)son of Israel!

Acts 23:6-7
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
KJV

Philippians 3:3-6
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
KJV

Acts 16:1-2
1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus (Timothy), the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
KJV

2 Timothy 1:1-5
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;
4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy;
5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
KJV

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures (the Tanakh, the OT), which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ (the Messiah) Jesus.
KJV

Be careful what you choose to believe because of how you understand the Scriptures. If you don't start from a right set of facts, you won't arrive at right conclusions.

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Believers and unbelievers are raised up at the same time on the last day when the books are opened.  The books are not opened before this time.  I know many teach that but I do not find it in the text.  Maybe you can help me on that.  Could you show me where the books are opened before that time?

Jesue said of those who believe in Him that He would raise them up at the last day frcorded for us in John 6.

 35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

In Revelation 20 there is a record of the books being opened.  It is here that the book of life is opened and names of those recorded are not thrown into the lake of fire.  Those who do not have their name recorded will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

The Judgment of the Dead

¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.¹⁵ Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here are both the just and the unjust in the Judgment.  

The only ones being judged out of the Books are the Unjust.  Christ does not see their names written in the Book of Life, so the Unjust are judged out of what is written in these books.

There are waves for the Just to enter into the First Resurrection (Resurrection of the Just).  The Bride goes first before the onset of the Final Week.  The tribulation (70th Week) saints go into the First Resurrection during the 70th Week. Those Just of Israel who have died goes into the First Resurrection at the end of the Final Week to be with those of Israel who make it out of the 70th Week and those who come out alive are part of the following group .  Then all other Just Saints go into the First Resurrection Post Mill.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Psalms37:4]

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

Again you very presumptuous. Where did I claim I dont believe in a rapture? 

Lets see .....the 2 witnesses stood on their feet (resurrected) then went up (raptured).

This is what you wrote in a post on the last page.

"I am neither pretrib midtrib prewrath or post trib. I am 7th trumpet prebowl resurrectionist. You might want to rethink your angle hey."

Believing the two witnesses getting resurrected is not believing in the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. And again the two witnesses gets resurrected at the end of the 6th trumpet, not the 7th. 

 

 

Quote

Right....went up and ascend is not the same thing....ok

Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

Not a rapture then? Do we need to get into the english language on the definition of ascend? 

The Free Dictionary

Ascend

To go or move upward; rise: The balloon ascended into the clouds. 

You telling me the balloon never went up to the clouds?

Never the less the original text is  has gone up .

Again I'm gonna tell you, the word ascend in the bible does not mean the same things as the description in the dictionary. The bible has many words that mean differently from the dictionary.

 

~ "Eternal life" in the bible does not mean immortality as described in the dictionary. In the bible, it generally means a relationship with God.

~ "Death" in the bible doesn't always mean the end of life as described in the dictionary. In the bible, it generally means a separation from God.

~ "Generation" in the bible doesn't always mean the same peer group as described in the dictionary. In the bible, it generally means 70 years.

~ "Sheep" in the bible doesn't always mean a four legged animal as described in the dictionary. In the bible, it generally refers to Christians.

~ "Wheat" in the bible doesn't always mean a cereal grain type plant as described in the dictionary. In the bible, it generally refers to believers.

~ "Faith" in the bible doesn't always mean a firm belief as described in the dictionary. In the bible, it means obedience.

~ "Born Again" in the bible doesn't mean to enter into your mother's womb and come back out a second time . 

 

Don't be such a Nicodemus!

How is it you're a teacher and not know these things?  I'm telling you we speak of what we know and report what we have seen, yet you are not willing to accept our message.  You do not believe me when I tell you about the things of this world; how will you ever believe me, then, when I tell you about the things of heaven?

 

When Jesus returns to separate the sheeps from the goats, is this what you envision?

 

Again, the word ascend in the bible does not mean exactly what it said in the dictionary!

 

 

Quote

Lot is not about the rapture, it's about the Abomination of Desolation.

Right....because the antichrist was there.

Again, the parable of the days of Lot is about the Abomination of Desolation, not the rapture. The days of Noah is about the rapture.

And no you're wrong, the a/c is not in Jerusalem at the time of the destruction of the AoD. If he was, there be no more a/c, mark of the beast, battle of Armageddon, etc.

During the days of Lot, Lot was told to flee the city before it was destroyed. Christ warns the Israelis living in Jerusalem at the time of the AoD to flee before the city before it gets destroy.

Matthew 24:15-22 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁵ “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), ¹⁶ “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ¹⁷ Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. ¹⁸ And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. ¹⁹ But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! ²⁰ And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. ²² And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

 

Fire came down from heaven and completely destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and it's surrounding areas. In the same way, Jerusalem will be nuked at the AoD, the whole city  and it's surrounding area will be in ashes just like the days of Lot.  

Need scriptural evidence from the bible? There's at least 10 scriptures all found in the old testament. I think you said earlier you were the expert on old testament prophecies so have fun finding them.

And I know you didn't know this otherwise you wouldn't had laugh when I told you the days of Lot is about the AoD. 

 

 

 

 

Quote

Sorry Gods not going to rebuke me for calling you out on replacement theology.

 

I would suggest you read the entire context of John. What the fathers house is.

What Christ is preparing for us is positions of rulership, not mega billion dollar mansions.

The Lord rebuke you as He and I don't promote replacement theology.

 

2 Corinthians 5:1 New International Version (NIV)

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

 

John 14:2 New King James Version (NKJV)

 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 

 

 

Quote

Im still failing to see how you get Christ coming 75 days prior,

 

Heres your flaw

 

Daniel 7

He was given authority,glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

 

So Ill repeat myself how do you get 75 days prior? 

 

How do you know it's a flaw if you don't know how to get the 75 day?

Do you know how Einstein got the calculation for creating the atomic bomb? If not, was his calculation a flaw too?

Don't be such a Nicodemus!

 

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

21 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Yes, one thing at a time.  Martha knew about the last day because of the words of Jesus recorded for us in chapter 6 of John.

This doesn't exactly answer the question. I was asking you how did Martha knew about the great white throne judgment since John didn't reveal it till 60 years later in the book of Revelation. You just confirmed what she already knew. However, many Jews also knew, even the thief on the cross that died with Christ knew about the last day.

John the Baptist was also preaching the coming resurrection telling everyone the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand that people will be going to heaven.

Matthew 3:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

Shortly after His baptism, Jesus also preached about people going to heaven.

Matthew 4:17 New King James Version (NKJV)

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

He didn't stop there. He went on telling everyone He will resurrect the dead. Look at John 5:25 carefully. Here is where Jesus tells you when the last day will be when He'll resurrect the dead. He said the time is NOW! Not some distance future. Look at the other translations too.

John 5:25-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁵ Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. ²⁶ For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,²⁷ and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.²⁸ Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice ²⁹ and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

http://biblehub.com/john/5-25.htm

New Living Translation
"And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it's here now, when the dead will hear my voice--the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live.

English Standard Version
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"I can guarantee this truth: A time is coming (and is now here) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who respond to it will live.

Weymouth New Testament
"In most solemn truth I tell you that a time is coming--nay, has already come--when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

 

Jesus did miracles to get people to believe. Before He resurrected Lazarus He asked Martha if she believed in Him too. So He resurrected Lazarus that day so Martha didn't have to wait for the last day to see her brother.

John 11:23-27 New King James Version (NKJV)

²³ Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

²⁴ Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

²⁵ Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. ²⁶ And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

²⁷ She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

Jesus performed many many miracles, even others not recorded in the bible trying to get people to believe Him, to believe He's their Messiah, sent from God. And of all the miracles He performed, the mass resurrection of OT saints on the last day was probably His greatest miracle ever at convincing many doubters to believe.

John 20:30 New King James Version (NKJV)

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;

 

And here's the resurrection He performed on the last day that got people to believe Him. The last day He spoke of throughout John 6 is the day He died on the cross: His last day.

 

Matthew 27:50-54 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁵⁰ And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

⁵¹ Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, ⁵² and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; ⁵³ and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

⁵⁴ So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You said, "Scripture says we as the Bride will reign with Him (2 Tim 2:12)," but you need to consider a few things: First, was Paul actually talking about "the Bride?"

2 Timothy 2:8-13
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David (the Messiah from the seed of David) was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ (the Messiah) Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
KJV

Was he talking about "the church" or about "the elect," the "chosen seed?!"

 

You're in error here Retro. The elects refers to the firstfruits of "both" the church and Israel. The word elect means to be chosen. There are those who by obedience are chosen by God as His firstfruit regardless if you're Jews or gentile.

Look at 2 Timothy 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:" Only the bride of Christ will reign with Christ during the millennium. 

Look at 2 Timothy 2:8 "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David (the Messiah from the seed of David) was raised from the dead according to my gospel:" Who do you think has already accepted Jesus and the gospel, the church or Israel? Paul here is addressing the church.

Look at 2 Timothy 2:10 "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ (the Messiah) Jesus with eternal glory." Who receives the salvation of Christ, Israel or the church? This has nothing to do with Israel, it's all about the church. 

 

Again, the elects can refer to both Israel and the church. In Matthew 24:29-31, Here the elects of the church are in heaven.

Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁹ “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

In Matthew 24:21-24, the elects of Israel (144,000) are on earth.

Matthew 24:21-24 New King James Version (NKJV)

²¹ For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. ²² And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

²³ “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. ²⁴ For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

 

It doesn't matter if you're Jews or gentile, Israel or the church, you can be an elect if you're His firstfruit. If you can understand this, it makes prophecy 10 times easier to understand.

Colossians 3:11-12 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹¹ where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

¹² Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Psalms37:4.

You're cute, but wrong. When one calls another a "preterist," it is a default assumption that it means a "full preterist." One does NOT assume a "partial preterist." You don't YET understand that a "partial preterist" can be "premillennial!" The proof is in what you say next:

See? YOU are still thinking I believe that the second coming happened in 70 A.D! What gall! You go off half-cocked, thinking you know me, and you don't have the first clue what I believe! More proof:

Stop. Rewind.

First, let me spell it out to you:

*** I believe that the Lord Yeshua`, the Messiah of God, will return bodily in the near future. I believe in His FUTURE Second Coming. Only certain parts of the Olivet Discourse have already been fulfilled in the first century.

Have you EVER harmonized the Olivet Discourse in the Synoptic Gospels in the Greek BEFORE translating into English? No? Well, I have. 

It's a wonderful task that one might actually enjoy, but he or she needs to have a rudimentary understanding of the Greek language, although much of it can be treated quite mechanically. For instance, to tie in the different verses of Matthew 24 with those of Mark 13 and those of Luke 21, one can look for the same Greek phrases and words that occur in the same order and use these locations as links to tie the three passages into one. These passages are the three ways that the authors remembered how that day went.

I did it with the Microsoft Excel spreadsheet program using a new line for each Greek word in each verse, having columns for Matthew's, Mark's, and Luke's accounts.

At least two of these accounts of the Olivet Discourse were translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but our oldest versions of all three of these accounts are in Koinee Greek (using the "ee" for an eta), which has EIGHT cases, by the way. It's CLASSICAL Greek that only has the five cases. You neglected to mention the ablative, locative, and instrumental cases.

Now, listen carefully to what the disciples asked Yeshua` that day:

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)?
KJV

Mark 13:3-4
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
KJV

Luke 21:7
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
KJV

In Greek, they said,

Kata Maththaion 24:3
3 Katheemenou de autou epi tou Orous toon Elaioon proseelthon autoo hoi matheetai kat' idian legontes, Eipe heemin pote tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion tees sees parousias kai sunteleias tou aioonos.
UBS Greek New Testament

Kata Markon 13:3-4
3 Kai katheemenou autou eis to Oros toon Elaioon katenanti tou heirou epeeroota auton kat' idian Petros kai Iakoobos kai Iooannees kai Andreas,
4 Eipon heemin pote tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion hotan mellee tauta sunteleisthai panta.
UBS Greek New Testament

Kata Loukan 21:7
7 Epeerooteesan de auton legontes, Didaskale, pote oun tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion hotan mellee tauta ginesthai;
UBS Greek New Testament

 It may LOOK like they said three different things, but actually all three accounts were correct. The authors just remembered different PARTS of what was said that day. Assuming no errors because of Divine inspiration, they link together on the underlined portions:

Matthew's and Mark's accounts link on the phrases "Eip(e/on) heemin pote tauta estai" and "kai ti to seemeion," and
Mark's and Luke's accounts link on the phrases "kai ti to semeion" and "hotan mellee tauta."
They all three link on the one phrase, "kai ti to seemeion."

See how they may be harmonized?

So, they actually asked THREE things:
1. When would these things (that He just mentioned while looking at the buildings of the Temple on their way out of town) happen?
2. What shall be the sign of your coming? and 
3. What shall happen at the end of the age?

They were concerned about all three: What would happen in their lifetime, what would happen when the Master returned, and what would happen at the end of the age.

Yeshua` answered ALL THREE of these concerns!

And, the way to tell which were which was in how He addressed these concerns. When He was talking DIRECTLY to His disciples using the pronouns humeis (you as subject), humoon (of/from you), humin (to/for/with/by/in/at you), or humas (you as direct object) or using verbs that ended with "-te" or "-the" (second person, plural forms), He was talking about THEIR future in the first century, our PAST!

Therefore, the portions about not coming down from the rooftops or not coming into the city from the fields were about THEM in the FIRST CENTURY! Even much that had to do with false messiahs were about the First Century, such as the Bar Kokhba Revolt in 132-135 A.D, although false messiahs would continue throughout the period of the Diaspora and the times of the Gentiles!

You can't tell me that Yeshua` was ONLY talking about OUR future shortly before and during when He returns! That's just short-sighted!

 

 

You're too predictable Retro. Not only did I say you won't be able to resist replying back, I had 110% guaranteed you will and here you are.  

btw, you don't need to do a spreadsheet or dig up the original greek to on all 3 discourses to figure and harmonize what Christ was telling us in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. God is not the author of confusion. Do you actually think Jesus would deliberately make His story so complicate for His disciples not the understand the timing of His return? Jesus told us throughout the new testament to watch and be ready. I'm not exaggerating the slightest bit when I'm telling you they're easy to understand. 

Do you know why Luke's discourse looks different from Matthew's and Mark's? It's because Luke's version is a recording of what Christ said while in the temple talking to a different audience. Matthew's and Mark's record were given to His disciples at the Mount of Olives.

 

Luke 21:5-8 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁵ Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, ⁶ “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

⁷ So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

⁸ And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them.

 

Matthew 24:3-5 New King James Version (NKJV)

³ Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

⁴ And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. ⁵ For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

 

Mark 13:3-4 New King James Version (NKJV)

³ Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, ⁴ “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

 

Why do you have such a harm time trying to harmonize the Discourses? They're easy to understand. As me anything if you like, I have a talking parrot with the gift of prophecy. But be warn, she laughs at the teachings of partial and full preterism, and think it's all nonsense conjured up by people filling in the blinks with things they make up on prophecies they don't understand.

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

 

You're too predictable Retro. Not only did I say you won't be able to resist replying back, I had 110% guaranteed you will and here you are.  

btw, you don't need to do a spreadsheet or dig up the original greek to on all 3 discourses to figure and harmonize what Christ was telling us in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. God is not the author of confusion. Do you actually think Jesus would deliberately make His story so complicate for His disciples not the understand the timing of His return? Jesus told us throughout the new testament to watch and be ready. I'm not exaggerating the slightest bit when I'm telling you they're easy to understand. 

Do you know why Luke's discourse looks different from Matthew's and Mark's? It's because Luke's version is a recording of what Christ said while in the temple talking to a different audience. Matthew's and Mark's record were given to His disciples at the Mount of Olives.

 

Luke 21:5-8 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁵ Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, ⁶ “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

⁷ So they asked Him (WHEN?), saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

⁸ And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them.

 

Matthew 24:3-5 New King James Version (NKJV)

³ Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

⁴ And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. ⁵ For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

 

Mark 13:3-4 New King James Version (NKJV)

³ Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, ⁴ “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

 

Why do you have such a hard time trying to harmonize the Discourses? They're easy to understand. Ask me anything if you like, I have a talking parrot with the gift of prophecy. But be warn, she laughs at the teachings of partial and full preterism, and think it's all nonsense conjured up by people filling in the blanks with things they make up on prophecies they don't understand.

 

Shalom, Psalm37:4.

As are you, "bro'!" You're NOT going to have the "last word" when you've just VILIFIED a brother!

As far as "not needing to do a spreadsheet or digging up the original Greek on all 3 discourses to figure and harmonize what Christ was telling us in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21," I will continue to do so at my leisure. It's MY way of having fun! Don't like it? Too bad.

The thing you've got to ask yourself is this: WHEN did these individual events take place that day? YOU claim that He said Luke's account IN the Temple, but the other two accounts say that He was saying this to them ON THE WAY OUT as they were showing Him the buildings of the Temple! THEY - these disciples - were the "SOME" of Luke 21:5!

It's obvious to me that shocking statements are made once, because only the first time it's said will it have the same impact. Therefore, the statement that Yeshua` made about "not one stone left upon another stone" was said once. This DEFINITELY ties the three accounts together at that point. Therefore, ...

time(Matthew 24:2) = time(Mark 13:2) = time(Luke 21:6). THAT MUCH was said on the Temple grounds while they were walking away.

Matthew's and Mark's accounts then tell us that TIME PASSED! So, in Matthew 24:3 and following, and in Mark 13:3 and following, the scene has changed from the Temple grounds to the Mount of Olives, a short walk out of Jerusalem. Luke's account simply doesn't go into where what was said and when! There is a GAP in the timing between Luke 21:6 and 7. Sure, they asked Him, but did they ask Him that immediately (as the English implies) or was it asked LATER? YOU CAN'T GO BY THE ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS! The Greek texts are the safest way to go because they will give you the nuances of what was said where and when.

Yeshua`s policy by that point in His ministry was NOT to share all with the general public. He told HIS DISCIPLES - HIS STUDENTS - what was important, not just anybody, and certainly not the religious leadership at the time! They deserved what they were about to get! By the way, He was HIS DISCIPLES' "Teacher" (Luke 21:7).

It's just "CONVENIENT" to say Luke's account was said at a different time because some don't like to think that Luke's account of verses 20-23 reflecting Matthew's account of verses 15-21 or Mark's account of verses 14-19!

Luke 21:20-23
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
KJV

Matthew 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Mark 13:14-19
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
KJV
 

[Psalms37:4]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

As are you, "bro'!" You're NOT going to have the "last word" when you've just VILIFIED a brother!

As far as "not needing to do a spreadsheet or digging up the original Greek on all 3 discourses to figure and harmonize what Christ was telling us in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21," I will continue to do so at my leisure. It's MY way of having fun! Don't like it? Too bad.

Temper temper! You seem to get upset pretty easily here friend. If researching prophecy on a spread sheet and translating the original Greek is a sensitive topic to you, why do you bring it up in a debate? Were you not expecting me asking you why? Were you expected a sugar coated reply instead?

Being so sensitive, you better brace yourself for what I'm about to reveal to you ahead.

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The thing you've got to ask yourself is this: WHEN did these individual events take place that day? YOU claim that He said Luke's account IN the Temple, but the other two accounts say that He was saying this to them ON THE WAY OUT as they were showing Him the buildings of the Temple! THEY - these disciples - were the "SOME" of Luke 21:5!

Oh really!? Did you bother to carefully examine the first verse to see who Jesus was talking to? Those talking to Him were the rich, not His disciples. Read all of Luke 21, His disciples is never mentioned anywhere. And this conversation took place in the treasury within the temple, not the Mount of Olives several miles away. "Strike one!"

 

Luke 21:1-5 New King James Version (NKJV)

21 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 

² and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. 

³ So He said, “Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all;

⁴ for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had.”

⁵ Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,

⁶ “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

⁷ So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

 

 

It wasn't until Jesus departed from the temple when His disciples came and spoke to Him. 

 

Matthew 24:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. ² And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

 

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua`s policy by that point in His ministry was NOT to share all with the general public. He told HIS DISCIPLES - HIS STUDENTS - what was important, not just anybody, and certainly not the religious leadership at the time! They deserved what they were about to get! By the way, He was HIS DISCIPLES' "Teacher" (Luke 21:7).

 

I don't know where your head's at but you better read Luke 21:7 carefully. I underlined it in red for you. It said "they" asked Him not "he" asked Him.  Strike two!

Luke 21:7 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁷ So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

 

 

You also might want to read other parts of the bible, the religious leaders do address Jesus as teacher. That's strike three! And as Bill Clinton use to say "Three strike and you're out!"

Matthew 12:38 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁸ Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”

 

Matthew 22:34-36 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁴ But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. ³⁵ Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, ³⁶ “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

 

Matthew 22:15-16 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁵ Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk. ¹⁶ And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men.

 

Matthew 22:23-24 New King James Version (NKJV)

²³ The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, ²⁴ saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother.

 

 

 

Matthew 8:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ Then a certain scribe came and said to Him, “Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go.”

 

Just out of curiosity I wanna ask you this question. How is it you're so certain Luke 21:20-24 was fulfilled in 70 AD when you can't even grasp the first 7 verses of Luke 21?

 

 

[Psalms37:4]

21 hours ago, inchrist said:

And where did I state I dont believe in the rapture?

I'm going to repeat it again to you, i do believe in rapture, Im going to repeat it again....i do believe in the rapture...and if that hasnt sunk in, you are more than welcome to go ask others if I believe in the rapture. You want to go round in circles again? Ok .... i believe in the rapture....your turn now....

Rabbit trail!

No one cares about a rabbit trail rapture or a mass transit rapture when both are wrong and cannot be backed by scripture.

 

 

21 hours ago, inchrist said:

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Notice that word at  

See the word - at can mean in, on, among or next too or even about.

That's not the rapture bud. Yes you read correctly, I said that's NOT the rapture and it can easily be proven from the bible.

 

 

21 hours ago, inchrist said:

This is what I envision: heres heres your sheeps and goats

The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

That's not the time when Jesus returns to separate the sheeps and goats. That's a scene from Revelation 11:15-19 that takes place during the middle of the tribulation and it's not about the kingdom on earth either. 

Yes, you read correctly, it's not about the kingdoms on earth. It's the kingdoms in Heaven. Read Revelation 11:15-12:12 CAREFULLY! It's telling you satan no longer has access to heaven to deceive, accuse and influence the authorities in heaven.  

 

 

21 hours ago, inchrist said:

And please notice Lot was escorted out, just like rahap was escorted out of the beast kingdom....just like the two witnesses will escort the church out through ressurection and rapture.

I don't know what else to say about your comment on the two witnesses except facepalm!

Making things up will get you into a heap of trouble when Christ returns.