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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

I do not understand how the Bible can nullify the Bible.

What Daniel say's nullifies your interpretation of the Scriptures.  Daniel says the Just of Israel rises 1335 days after the A/D is set up.  Daniel was a prophet, you are not.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Not so: 

Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.  Isa 11:8 - The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, the young child put his hand into the vipers nest..  They will neither harm or destroy on all my holy mountain. Jer 23:3,4 - I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.  I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing, declares the Lord.

In Christ

Montana Marv

At the return of Christ ALL are changed,who's gonna make babies?

Zechariah 14:16 "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

The "feast of the tabernacles" is the "feast of the harvest". It occurs at the time of harvest, and the only thing harvested in the Millennium age is the harvesting of souls. It sets men's [soul's] minds on the only thing you have to offer to our Lord, "your love, and worship". Remember that at the seventh trumpet when Jesus Christ, the only Begotten of the Father returns to earth, we enter a new dimension, and new dispensation when the things of the flesh body are completely done away with. In that new body that each soul shall have, the things of the flesh simply will not exist for they will be of a different dimension. The only thing that will matter in Christ's kingdom will be your love and devotion to our Lord.

Isaiah 11:8 "And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den."

This is saying that even the sucking child can play around with snakes and serpents and not be harmed. There is a time when all this shall take place.

Isaiah 11:9 "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea."

Friend, this is the Millennium age, and there shall be an overflowing of truth at this time. It is obvious that these conditions have not come to pass yet, for each of these animals stll act in the ways of their nature today. The asp would strike the child, the cows and bears don't eat together, and the lions simply doesn't eat straw. A lamb is wolf meat and there is no way that the two would lie down together without the wolf eating lamb chops.

Did you note that in each case of the comparison it was between a domestic animal that God created for Adam to tend to, and the other was a creature from the wild. The purpose of each domestic animal was to provide a service to man, to provide wool for cloths and meat, to give milk, to plow the field and so on. The other animals were of the six day creation that God put in the wild for man to hunt, to kill and to manage.

Then we have the child that would touch the actual serpent itself, just like the two innocent ones in the Garden of Eden that touched the serpent and we know what happened to them. It shows us that at this time the lawless one is destroyed and all wickedness is gone with him. There are very few teachers that go to this depth with these verses, but we are trying to seek out the deeper truths from the manuscripts.

Jeremiah 23:3 "And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase."

This "remnant" that will be drawn out of all countries is the remnant of the elect. If the pastors won't teach the truth, God will draw them out and He will arrange that each of them be brought into the understanding of His Holy Word, and will be fruitful in teaching others from that Word. They will teach God's Word as it ought to be taught, chapter by chapter, from cover to cover. They will teach the entire Word of God, and the plan that He has for this earth age. That elect will teach the true Word, the pasture that the good Shepherd will provide.

Jeremiah 23:4 "And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD."

In that day when the false Christ comes among them, each of God's Elect will know the truth, and no one will deceive them. When God Word is truly taught there will be no sheep stealing from one church house to another. When sheep are fed from the Word of God, they stay where the good food of truth is fed from. No pastor is in charge of God's elect, because God Himself will lead them and guide them to where they ought to be. It is God that uses His sheep and directs them to where they will be fed, and guides them away from where abominations are being taught.

Jeremiah 23:5 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth."

Of course we know who that Branch is, that Branch is Jesus Christ our Savior who is the King of kings and Lord of lords. This word "Branch" comes from the Hebrew word "zemach" and is a branch that sprouts from the root, and not from the trunk of the tree. In the heavens, it is the brightest star in the Zodiac sign "Virgo". The word "Virgo" means "virgin". In the Bible in the stars we see that branch that came to be our King of king and Lord of lords. The Branch that is the Savior of the world.

That Branch gives you peace wherever you are, and at any time that you call upon His name. It doesn't matter what tribulation is around you, Christ will be there with you when you are one of His sheep. Even during the tribulation of deception that is coming upon the earth, God's elect will not be deceived because they cared enough to study His Word to know the truth that shall come to pass.

God's elect wear their gospel armor to participate in the battle that comes, and that battle is a spiritual battle in the minds of everyone on earth. Satan is coming as the Antichrist, and the battle against him will be fought with words and ideas right out of the Word of God. That is why it is important to know the Word, and have it sealed in your mind. God's elect will be shielded from Satan's fiery darts of lies and half truths, and even against governmental interference.

And to top it off

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

I Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Paul is saying that you can count on this for a fact. Flesh and blood cannot be part of the Kingdom of God. Your flesh body is going to drive you to sin and that is its nature. When you are under the nature of your flesh body, it will not allow your inner man to control you. There is no way that flesh and blood can become part of the kingdom of God. As long as you are in your flesh body, you simply cannot keep from breaking part of the laws of God. Your mind is incapable of retaining all the law, and applying it to every moment of your life. This is why we have repentance, and it is also why flesh and blood will not be here when Jesus Christ's kingdom is established here on earth for the Millennium kingdom.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

At the return of Christ ALL are changed

If this is the case; why do many follow Satan at the end of the Mill and then they are destroyed?  If this is the case; Why does Christ need to rule with a rod of iron?  He needs to rule with a rod of iron because of the survivors who come out of this final week.  According to Rev 9:20 - the rest of mankind (those not killed by the plagues) continued and did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idol's of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood.

This is the reason Christ the King must rule with a rod of iron.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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25 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

If this is the case; why do many follow Satan at the end of the Mill and then they are destroyed?  If this is the case; Why does Christ need to rule with a rod of iron?  He needs to rule with a rod of iron because of the survivors who come out of this final week.  According to Rev 9:20 - the rest of mankind (those not killed by the plagues) continued and did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idol's of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood.

This is the reason Christ the King must rule with a rod of iron.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Okay

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6 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The time of the resurrection is at the end of the thousand years that is the last day that Jesus spoke about in John 6.

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

The resurrection at the end of the millennium is the second resurrection. God is the one who resurrects all the dead on earth and from hell at the second resurrection. Everyone who gets resurrected at this time appears in heaven at the Great White Throne before God. Christ doesn't resurrect anyone at the GWT judgment. Christ is on earth awaiting the New Jerusalem to descend from heaven. Christ's power and authority to judge are handed back to the Father at the end of the 1000 years after putting all enemies beneath Him. 

Revelation 20:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 New King James Version (NKJV)

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

 

 

Quote

Do not add confusion of the last days and the last day.  Rapture happens as the dead in Christ are raised up at the last day at the end of the thousand years.  Graves and books are opened at this time and not before.

 

Many Jews that heard Christ preached the last day already knew it was the day He died on the cross, even the thief that died with Him knew about the last day when he asked Jesus to remember him when he ascend to His kingdom. 

Jesus told many about the resurrection and spoke many times about His death.

John the Baptist was also preaching the coming resurrection telling everyone the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand that people will be going to heaven.

Matthew 3:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

 

Shortly after His baptism, Jesus also preached about people going to heaven.

Matthew 4:17 New King James Version (NKJV)

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

 

He didn't stop there. He went on telling everyone He will resurrect the dead. Look at John 5:25 carefully. Here is where Jesus tells you when the last day will be when He'll resurrect the dead. He said the time is NOW! Not some distance future. Look at the other translations too.

Jesus told them, the resurrection is NOW, not at the Great White Throne Judgment, not 3000 years later, nor 2000 years later. What part of NOW isn't sinking in yet?

 

John 5:25-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

http://biblehub.com/john/5-25.htm

New Living Translation
"And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it's here now, when the dead will hear my voice--the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live.

English Standard Version
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"I can guarantee this truth: A time is coming (and is now here) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who respond to it will live.

Weymouth New Testament
"In most solemn truth I tell you that a time is coming--nay, has already come--when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

 

Jesus did miracles to get people to believe. Before He resurrected Lazarus He asked Martha if she believed in Him too. So He resurrected Lazarus that day so Martha didn't have to wait for the last day to see her brother.

John 11:23-27 New King James Version (NKJV)

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

Jesus performed many many miracles, even others not recorded in the bible trying to get people to believe Him, to believe He's their Messiah, sent from God. And of all the miracles He performed, the mass resurrection of OT saints on the last day was probably His greatest miracle ever at convincing many doubters to believe.

John 20:30 New King James Version (NKJV)

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;

 

And here's the resurrection He performed on the last day that got people to believe Him. The last day He spoke of throughout John 6 is the day He died on the cross: His last day.

Matthew 27:50-54 New King James Version (NKJV)

50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

 

The resurrection on the last day was already fulfilled at the cross. Do not deny Jesus, He is the resurrection!

 

John 11:25 New King James Version (NKJV)

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

 

Jesus.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Psalms37:4
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15 hours ago, inchrist said:

Well actually God did tell Christ and Christ did tell his disciples.

Well if you think God told Jesus the day and hour and Jesus told His disciples, than tells us what the day and hour is of His return for the church. 

Otherwise the Lord refutes you.

Mark 13:32-33 New King James Version (NKJV)

32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.

 

 

Quote

Also note the Pharisees understand all of Christs Parables. (Rabbis understanding rabbis - mindblowing i know)

Heres an example

Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?" ...Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us." Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also?"

The disciples lacked understanding of Christs parables, the Pharisees on the other hand understood Christs parables.

You see the Pharisees had a biblical technique of interpretation

Christ being one of his functions spoke with this technique.

Heres your problem

 

Well here's your problem. The very scripture you used but did not post it in it's entirety. 

 

Matthew 15:10-16 New King James Version (NKJV)

10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

15 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.”

16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding?

 

The things that Jesus said that upsetted the Pharisees are easily understood and not a parable written in verses 10-11.

The parable that Peter was confused about is explained in verses 13-14.

 

 

 

Edited by Psalms37:4
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16 hours ago, inchrist said:

You are now changing the goal post, I did not claim there will be no nuclear fallout, Im disputing your claim Jerusalem will be nuked.

12 This is the plague with which the Lordwill strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem

The nations will be striked not jerusalem. 

And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I'm not posting anything more than what I've already posted. You're just having a hard time understanding the things you read from the scriptures I've posted, even with my explanation.

It's everyone that attacks Jerusalem. On that day the city and the invaders will be destroy by a nuke.

 

Isaiah 29:1-7 Good News Translation (GNT)

29 God's altar, Jerusalem itself, is doomed! The city where David camped is doomed! Let another year or two come and go, with its feasts and festivals, and then God will bring disaster on the city that is called “God's altar.” There will be weeping and wailing, and the whole city will be like an altar covered with blood. God will attack the city, surround it, and besiege it. Jerusalem will be like a ghost struggling to speak from under the ground, a muffled voice coming from the dust.

Jerusalem, all the foreigners who attack you will be blown away like dust, and their terrifying armies will fly away like straw. Suddenly and unexpectedly the Lord Almighty will rescue you with violent thunderstorms and earthquakes. He will send windstorms and raging fire; 7 then all the armies of the nations attacking the city of God's altar, all their weapons and equipment—everything—will vanish like a dream, like something imagined in the night.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 29%3A1-7&version=GNT

 

 

 

 

 

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Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us.

Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age, souls are judged by works only.

Why are you judged for works only? Faith is something hoped for but unseen. You don't see Jesus Christ on earth today, you will see his wonderful works, and be led by Him and His Spirit in the Millennium age. Today He is in heaven and not walking on this earth. However, in the millennium, He will be on earth, and all will have full intelligence, with full recall and will be taught. The Heavenly Father honors all those with grace, that have accepted His Son by faith through repentance without Christ's physical presence here on earth, if you believed in His Word.

To those who are not under grace in the Millennium, their salvation will be only through and by their works. For faith doesn't exist to them. There will be no ignorance, physical handicap, for you will see, know, and experience Our Lord first hand.

If you follow the Antichrist, the first Christ to appear, you will have forfeited your salvation in this earth age. You will not be under the grace of God, and your works will be the only thing that matters on the last day of the Millennium, the day of judgment. They will be judged by works alone, for they have seen Jesus Christ, and are without excuse. The "rapture theory" leaves believers defenseless against Satan, for they will be taken in by Satan's deceptions.

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15 hours ago, inchrist said:

Luke 19:15

He was made king, however, and returned home. 

 

The kingdom of the world has become, the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

 

 The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small.

 

- Well done, my good servant!’ 

 

 - The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’ "His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’

 

-  “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! 

But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”

 and for destroying those who destroy the earth.

No, the kingdom this refers to is in heaven, not on earth.

 

~ Where are the 24 elders, in heaven or on earth? Why are they thanking God? Rev 11:16-17

~ God's servants: the prophets and the saints to be rewarded is being held where? Where is the Bema Seat held at? Heaven or earth? Rev 11:18

~ Where is the temple of God in heaven? in heaven or on earth? Rev 11:19

~ Where is the war in heaven being fought between Michael and satan, in heaven or on earth? Rev 12:7

~ Those who are rejoicing in heaven because satan has been kicked out of heaven are where, in heaven or on earth? Rev 12:12

 

Revelation 11:15-12:12 New King James Version (NKJV)

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,

And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

12 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

 

The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ is the heaven above, not the kingdom on earth....yet. The kingdoms on earth abides in Christ after He puts all powers and authorities at His feet during the millennium. 

 

1 Corinthians 15:24-25 New King James Version (NKJV)

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

 

The 7th trumpet is a prophecy about satan getting kick out of heaven permanently, no longer able to influence, deceive and accuse the authorities in God's presence.

 

Lastly, there's no such thing as a 6th trumpet or 7th trumpet rapture. You haven't done anything to prove this with scripture. All you've been doing so far is emotionally ramble a bunch of idle babble making no sense at all. I know you want to win an argument and have the last word but stay on the topic and post something from the bible that can actually dispute the Pre-Trib rapture or at least post so biblical evidence to support your own rapture theory.  

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

My position is that the resurrection happens as John tells us in Revelation 20 and Jesus told us about in John 5 both place it at the last day.  The last day is at the end of the thousand Years.

John 5: 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."  (both righteous and unrighteous are raise at the same time according to Jesus)

Have you considered that the last day might be a reference to the last day of Satan's dominion, when Jesus takes His great power and begins to reign?  1 Corinthians 15:23-24 & Revelation 20:5 indicate that not all are resurrected at the same time.

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