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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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38 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Actually the deliverance of Israel was fulfilled

 

When that day comes, the deaf will be able to hear a book being read aloud, and the blind, who have been living in darkness, will open their eyes and see. 19 Poor and humble people will once again find the happiness

 

I think you will find in Christ's first advent the verse cited above was clearly fulfilled.

 

 It will be the end of those who oppress others and show contempt for God. Every sinner will be destroyed. 21 God will destroy those who slander others, those who prevent the punishment of criminals, and those who tell lies to keep honest people from getting justice.

 

Again you will find the Pharisees; who were violent persecutors of the followers of Christ, they attacked the people, and caused false accusations which are brought even against the faithful servants of God and ensared traps . We see that the Pharisees  did so to Christ himself. (Matthew 21:23; John 8:6.)

 

The bible is a big book and it's hard to find what scriptures you're posting with all the translations out there. From now on, why don't you start posting the books, chapters and verses for the scriptures you post. I'm telling you this because the last time you did this, you gave a fabricated interpretation of the bible contrary to what it actual said, and ended up having me to correct you with an explanation without accusations.  

Here is what you wrote last time a few days ago on page 65 of this thread.

 

On 8/17/2017 at 10:42 AM, inchrist said:

Well actually God did tell Christ and Christ did tell his disciples.

 

Christ as one of his functions was a rabbi, who taught like a rabbi.

 

Also note the Pharisees understand all of Christs Parables. (Rabbis understanding rabbis - mindblowing i know)

 

Heres an example

 

Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?" ...Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us." Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also?"

 

The disciples lacked understanding of Christs parables, the Pharisees on the other hand understood Christs parables.

 

You see the Pharisees had a biblical technique of interpretation

 

And I ended up having to correct you by posting the entire scripture revealing you had commingled two different verses to form a conclusion contrary what the bible had actual said.

 

On 8/18/2107 at 2:06 AM, Psalm37:4 said:

Well here's your problem. The very scripture you used but did not post it in it's entirety. 

 

Matthew 15:10-16 New King James Version (NKJV)

10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

15 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.”

16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding?

 

The things that Jesus said that upsetted the Pharisees are easily understood and not a parable written in verses 10-11.

The parable that Peter was confused about is explained in verses 13-14.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, inchrist said:

And?

 

Show me where in your eschatology in luke 19:11-27 does christ return to give his rewards. Full breakdown please.

You're the one who brought up Luke 19:11-27 and keep pushing this topic in every other argument. Why do I need to explain this to you if you think you know so much about it? Again, second time I'm asking you now, explain Luke 19:11-27. 

If you want me to explain Luke 19:11-27, why don't you first tell everyone your view on the rapture. Do you believe in a 6th trumpet rapture, a 7th trumpet rapture or something else? Second time I'm asking you this too.

You're also wasting your time buddy. You don't learn anything constantly trying to turn the table around. If you want answers, you need to learn to listen first.

How about this? I have absolutely no idea what Luke 19:11-27 is about. Tell us what it means or the case is closed. Throw the subject out the window.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Seriously I have to provide you scripture on Christ healing the blind and deaf? And teaching them the word of God during hia first visit....is this a joke?

Why is it so hard to include the book, chapter and verses to scriptures you're posting?

Do you not think there's people out there who cherry picks scriptures pulling verses out of context and rearrange the bible to say what they want the bible to say?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Actually the deliverance of Israel was fulfilled

 

By who? Jesus is the only one who can deliver and save Israel, and He hasn't returned yet. 

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19 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Now let's get down to business. Are you trying to tell me here that in order to be saved, one must endure the coming 7 year tribulation (Daniel's 70th  week)? If this is what you believe, than let me ask you a few questions.

Concerning the Christians and the OT saints that have already passed away and will not be able to go through Daniel's 70th week, are they not saved? Are they going to hell instead?

Greetings Psalms 37:04

I am not saying anything about salvation or obtaining it.  I understand that that is by grace through faith.  Christians that are alive at the time of the seven year tribulation will not be taken up in some  rapture.  All that are in Christ are described as being asleep and will be raised up when the last trumpet sounds on the last day.  Those who are found to be listed in the book of life will go be with Jesus.  Those not listed will go the other direction.

19 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

The other thing you got wrong here is Acts 14:22. It said the Kingdom of "God." This is not talking about salvation as in John 3:16. Do you know the difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven? The kingdom of God is God Himself involving a personal relationship. The kingdom of heaven is the place of heaven.

How did I get it wrong?  The quotation of the scripture was only followed by a comment about going through tribulation.  That is exactly what the scripture says.  I said nothing about salvation.  Jesus said that in the world we would have tribulation.  Jesus prayed to the Father for believers in John 17.  

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them,for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

19 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

So why are you waiting till the coming tribulation to be tested? Trying to escape now? Endure to the end means you begin resisting the devil's temptation now, the moment you accept Christ as your savior, not later when it's convenient. You have a lot to learn my friend.

 

I believe it is the pre-trib position that wants to avoid tribulation All that I have pointed to indicates that is part of the normal Christian life.  Jesus did say that in the world you will have tribulation.  He also said be of good cheer I have overcome the World.  We have tools to overcome recorded for us in Revelation 12:11

They triumphed over him
    by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
    as to shrink from death.

You have a great ability to jump to conclusions and to add to the text.  Maybe we both can learn something.

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31 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

Greetings Psalms 37:04

I am not saying anything about salvation or obtaining it.  I understand that that is by grace through faith.  Christians that are alive at the time of the seven year tribulation will not be taken up in some  rapture.  All that are in Christ are described as being asleep and will be raised up when the last trumpet sounds on the last day.  Those who are found to be listed in the book of life will go be with Jesus.  Those not listed will go the other direction.

How did I get it wrong?  The quotation of the scripture was only followed by a comment about going through tribulation.  That is exactly what the scripture says.  I said nothing about salvation.  Jesus said that in the world we would have tribulation.  Jesus prayed to the Father for believers in John 17.  

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them,for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

I believe it is the pre-trib position that wants to avoid tribulation All that I have pointed to indicates that is part of the normal Christian life.  Jesus did say that in the world you will have tribulation.  He also said be of good cheer I have overcome the World.  We have tools to overcome recorded for us in Revelation 12:11

They triumphed over him
    by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
    as to shrink from death.

You have a great ability to jump to conclusions and to add to the text.  Maybe we both can learn something.


 

 A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared
a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can
make Himself understood. Please understand this my friends, God will
hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to
say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false
in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that
rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word
that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48;
Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of
changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of
ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself
to be.

 

The Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead
and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order
that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them.
Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were
to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you many be accounted worthy
to escape all these things of, 
Matt. 24, 25; Luke
21:1-19, 25-28, that
shall come to pass,
and stand before the Son of man,” 
Luke 21:34-36. These
two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3 are the only ones in the Gospels
that are clear concerning the Rapture.
. Jesus did not
reveal this, it was
revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51.
The
disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

Take note, this is very important to understand that the church will be taken out of the world before the Antichrist is revealed and before the tribulation begins!

 

The bible clearly states that the hinderer of lawlessness must be removed before the Antichrist is revealed,  2 Thess. 2:7-8, For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. V. 8, And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

There are only there things in the world today that hinder lawlessness. They are the church, the Holy Spirit and human governments. The hinderer that will be taken out of the world must refer to one of these three things. It could not refer to the Holy Spirit and governments for neither will be taken out of the world. It is clear that governments will not be taken for the Antichrist will reign over the ten kingdoms during the tribulation (Dan. 7:23-24; Rev. 17:8-17). The Holy Spirit will be here during the tribulation, so He could not be the hinderer taken (Acts. 2:16-21; John 14:16; Rev. 7:14; 12:17; 19:10; Zech. 12:10).

The Church will be taken
out of the world, 
(1 Thess. 4:16; Eph. 5:26-27; 1 Cor. 15:51-58), so this must be the hinderer referred to.

If you cannot understand how the church could be referred to as "he," see Eph. 2:15; 4:13 where the church is called a "man."

 

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5 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

How did I get it wrong?  The quotation of the scripture was only followed by a comment about going through tribulation.  That is exactly what the scripture says.  I said nothing about salvation.  Jesus said that in the world we would have tribulation.  Jesus prayed to the Father for believers in John 17.  

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them,for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

I believe it is the pre-trib position that wants to avoid tribulation All that I have pointed to indicates that is part of the normal Christian life.  Jesus did say that in the world you will have tribulation.  He also said be of good cheer I have overcome the World.  We have tools to overcome recorded for us in Revelation 12:11

Well guess what StL,  you got it wrong again.

Let me ask you a question. How does this scripture prove the church must go through the tribulation?

Below is the scripture you cited. Look at verses 18. It said "I have sent them into the world." This is past tense. The group of people He's praying for were alive the time He made this prayer. By now, they're kinda dead don't you think?

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them,for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

So my question again is "how does this scripture prove the church must go through the tribulation?"

Edited by Psalms37:4
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22 hours ago, inchrist said:

And I amswered this, twice now for you...."AT" the 7th trumpet.

There's no rapture at the 7th trumpet. Any scripture you post will be erroneous and can be proven wrong with the bible.

 

Quote

Whats so difficult about it, it pictures christ coming to give his servants and the wicked their reward.

Christ doesn't give rewards to the wicked. You're in error here too buddy.

 

Quote

....where do you fit that in your eschatology....its a simple question....no?

At the beginning of Christ's ministry during the first advent. Not the answer you were expecting I'm sure.

This is a parable. You need to understand the message behind the parable, not what it appears like on the surface. 

Matthew 13:10-14 Good News Translation (GNT)

10 Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked him, “Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?”

11 Jesus answered, “The knowledge about the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 For the person who has something will be given more, so that he will have more than enough; but the person who has nothing will have taken away from him even the little he has. 13 The reason I use parables in talking to them is that they look, but do not see, and they listen, but do not hear or understand. 14 So the prophecy of Isaiah applies to them:

‘This people will listen and listen, but not understand;
    they will look and look, but not see,

 

 

 

 

Edited by Psalms37:4
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On 8/21/2017 at 4:45 AM, inchrist said:

where do you fit that in your eschatology....its a simple question....no?

Watch these videos inchrist, it officially began in the scene of the first video when Christ sent out the 12 disciples as told in Matthew 10. Mark 6 and Luke 9 but really began when Christ met Simon Peter in the second video. Jesus is ALWAYS looking for disciples. Pay attention to the videos. It tells you what the minas are.

I'll explain the parable to you another time.

 

 

 

 

Edited by OneLight
Videos not allowed outside of the Video Forums.
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13 hours ago, inchrist said:

The return of Christ

The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

..........because you have taken your great power
    and have begun to reign.

As per Luke 19 as per Matthew 25 as per Joshua 6

ROFL! This is your bible evidence for a 7th trumpet rapture with a simultaneous second coming?

Jesus doesn't return at the 7th trumpet, not for the rapture or the second coming! Clearly delusional with zero ability to comprehend prophecy.

Revelation 11:15 New King James Version (NKJV)

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Numerous events happen at the 7th trumpet long preceding Christ's return. You still got 42 more months plus 75 days before the the tribulation ends. Basically you just rewrote the bible and eliminated the great tribulation (Jacob's Trouble) from Daniel's 70th week. 

1) Satan gets kicked out of heaven: Revelation 12:7-12

2) The a/c begins his reign for 42 months: Revelation 13:5

3) The Time of Jacob's Trouble begins here when the devil begins his persecution of Israel: Revelation 12:13

4) The Abomination of Desolation happens here: Matthew 24:15

5) The saints are given to the a/c for slaughter for 42 months: Revelation 13:7, Daniel 7:25

6) Implementation of the mark of the beast begins here during the AoD: Revelation 13:16

Then followed by the first five bowls of wrath, and then finally Christ returns at the 6th bowl to Armageddon.

You're just off dude, waaaay off, like off the charts out somewhere in the boonies off.

 

 

13 hours ago, inchrist said:

Heres a question for you in your attempts to disprove what Ive written.........why are the dead only judged in the 7th trumpet?

The dead are NOT ONLY judged at the 7th trumpet. How do you miss something so commonly known as the GWT judgment?

Revelation 20:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

 

 

 

 

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