Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[n2thelight]

3 minutes ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Matthew 24:29-31 is NOT the rapture. The elects are already in heaven. You can't rapture anyone already in heaven. In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down.

Ask yourself, how did the elects already get to heaven before the end of the tribulation? Can it happen in a Pre-trib rapture? Can it happen in a post-trib rapture?

If the elects are already in heaven, why do you need a post-trib rapture? Matthew 24:29-31 pretty much refutes any possibility of a post-trib rapture.

The elect are sealed

Now how did those in Heaven get there?

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The subject is those who have died

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot. It is difficult to see how they made a "rapture theory" out of this, when the subject is, "where are the dead?" So we see that when one dies, his soul goes immediately to be with our Heavenly Father. If you believe this, you are not heathen.

[Psalms37:4]

8 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

The elect are sealed

Word of mouth is not sufficient. You need scriptures revealing the elects in heaven of Matthew 24:31 were sealed.

 

Quote

Now how did those in Heaven get there?

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

Well there you have it.  If you're telling me 1 Thessalonians 4:13 means the elects go to heaven, that would surely debunk a post-trib rapture as the farthest you can go up is a U-turn in the sky before coming back down.

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

9 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot. It is difficult to see how they made a "rapture theory" out of this, when the subject is, "where are the dead?" So we see that when one dies, his soul goes immediately to be with our Heavenly Father. If you believe this, you are not heathen.

Elaborate on this too n2.

I don't see how this nullifies the Pre-Trib rapture.

 

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Elaborate on this too n2.

I don't see how this nullifies the Pre-Trib rapture.

 

You asked how did people get to heaven,they get there at death that's how Christ brings them with Him when He returns not because they were raptured.

Also where do you see the elect in Heaven?

Edited August 24, 2017 by n2thelight

[Psalms37:4]

26 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

You asked how did people get to heaven,they get there at death that's how Christ brings them with Him when He returns not because they were raptured.

Also where do you see the elect in Heaven?

This is not the post I asked you to elaborate on but it's fine, we'll comment on this instead. 

And where did you draw this conclusion from, watching other post-tribbers on CF commenting on 1 Thessalonians 4:14? 

Let me also ask you this, do you believe in soulsleep?

 

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[n2thelight]

8 minutes ago, Psalms37:4 said:

This is not the post I asked you to elaborate on but it's fine, we'll comment on this instead. 

And where did you draw this conclusion from, watching other post-tribbers on CF commenting on 1 Thessalonians 4:14? 

Let me also ask you this, do you believe in soulsleep?

 

 

The subject is,where are the dead 

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

No I don't believe in soul sleep

Those who have died are in Heaven that's how Christ brings them back with Him,not because they were raptured

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Again these people died,they were not raptured

 

There's only two choices,you will either get sealed,or you will take the mark and believe the lie

 

[Psalms37:4]

23 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

No I don't believe in soul sleep

Those who have died are in Heaven that's how Christ brings them back with Him,not because they were raptured

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

So where in the bible does it say Jesus will bring souls with Him when He comes to rapture the church?

[n2thelight]

41 minutes ago, Psalms37:4 said:

So where in the bible does it say Jesus will bring souls with Him when He comes to rapture the church?

What do you think a soul is,in other words,we don't have a soul,we are a soul.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him......

 

[Psalms37:4]

38 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

What do you think a soul is,in other words,we don't have a soul,we are a soul.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him......

That's correct n2. Our souls never dies and never sleeps, just our corpse dies and await a resurrection when we pass away. No such thing as soul sleep.

Now look again at 1 Thessalonians 4:14. See the word sleep in there?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him......

Paul here is NOT talking about the soul. This is the corpse he's referring to. Look at other translations too, they all point to the corpse (that died or sleep), not the soul.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (ASV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (BBE) For if we have faith that Jesus underwent death and came back again, even so those who are sleeping will come again with him by God's power.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (CEB) Since we believe that Jesus died and rose, so we also believe that God will bring with him those who have died in Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (CJB) do who have nothing to hope for. For since we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, we also believe that in the same way God, through Yeshua, will take with him those who have died.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (CSB) Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-thessalonians/4-14-compare.html

I'm just posting the first 5 translations. The rest also say the same thing, they either asleep or died. This verse is clearly referring to the corpses that has died and fallen asleep. Not the souls that are alive and never dies.

And you can confirm this too because in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, it said Jesus raises the dead in-Christ, not the souls.

Now back to Matthew 24:29-31, the elects in heaven are not the souls. They're the elects of the church. This is not a rapture scripture as you can't rapture people already in heaven.

Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁹ “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So how did the elects get to heaven in the first place? It's given right here in Isaiah 26:19-27:1. They are told to wait until after the indignation is over when Christ sends His angels to gather (summon) them after the tribulation.

Isaiah 26:19-27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

²⁰ Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

²¹ For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

27:1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

The resurrection part of the rapture is shown in verse 19. This happens before Christ descend upon the earth in judgment.  

 

 

 

 

[Zemke]

Hi inchrist, not wanting to step in on your discussion but just a note about the rams horn mention in Exodus. I looked at that a month back or so and in vs 13 of Exodus 19 the term used there is specific for the use of the metallic or silver trumpet. The general term used in "trumpet sound" is shofar and context usually tells us what horn is used. But Exodus 19 mentions a term specific and the rams horn is mentioned specific in Jericho.

Rams horns were used at specific times, silver trumpets were used at anytime such as battle and leaving the camp or calling a meeting of either leaders or all.

In Jericho it was mentioned specifically the horns were rams horns and being that Revelation plays off of that sequence of events and both were and are established set times of sounding would set the seven trumpets as being shofars or rams horns.

Numbers 10 I believe, interestingly, tells us the last trumpet sounds and the southern camp, the last camp, leaves and the camp before that was the east camp. Well it's interesting to me that Jerusalem buried their dead on the east and most people lived on the south, "The dead in Christ rise first". Paul was actually, in basic fundamental starting points in understanding, referring to the last trump of Numbers and the last of the camp remaining, leaving.

So at this point I do not believe the seventh trumpet in Revelation is the last trump.

Actually if it wasn't for Exodus 19 I may have started a thread "We are way over thinking the last trump". I think the whole world is going to hear that blast growing louder and louder. There will be no secret exit. Bones will shake, IMHO. But we may hear something else in the noise, the voice of our Lord calling.

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Zemke