Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[HAZARD]

2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

What terrible things?How many terrible things been happening to Christians since the beginning of time?

What's the worst that can happen,death of the flesh,and what did Christ say about that?

King James Bible
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

Now back to these terrible things you speak of,try the below,and do tell why were these Christians not raptured?

Early Christians sometimes faced persecution and even death for their beliefs. Many were tortured first; some were not. Of Jesus’s 11 disciples (not counting Judas) Peter, Simon the Zealot, Phillip, Jude the brother of James, and Andrew were all crucified in various parts of the world. Peter requested to be crucified upside down, a request the Romans were only too happy to grant. Andrew’s cross was in the shape of an X, which is now called St. Andrew’s Cross and appears on the Scottish flag.

This list contains 10 of the most bizarre and painful methods of torture inflicted upon the Christians of antiquity through the Early Middle Ages. Much of this information has been gleaned from John Foxe’s Book of Martyrsand corroborated elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

10Cooked To Death

Saint Lawrence of Rome is more well known for the manner of his death than his ministry in life. When a Roman prefect demanded that the tithes of the Catholic Church be handed over to the Roman state, Lawrence brought forth his impoverished congregation, who he stated were the tithes, as the money had been given them for food. The infuriated prefect ordered metal plates to be set over a bed of coals and heated until they were red-hot. Lawrence was then bound and laid naked on them, face up. His flesh sizzled, smoked, and was burned black, yet Lawrence made no outcry, nor did he beg forgiveness from the prefect. He finally called in a clear voice, “I’m done on that side. Turn me over and eat.” He is now the patron saint of cooks.

Peter, a eunuch of Diocletian’s household, was discovered to be a Christian and cooked in the same manner as Lawrence.

 

9Dragged To Death

Mark, who wrote the Gospel of Mark, founded the Christian Church in Alexandria and preached to the masses that they should give up their Egyptian gods and goddesses. It’s not clear how long he was able to keep this up, but he did convert many before A.D. 68, when an angry mob tied a rope around his neck and dragged him through the streets behind a chariot for two days without interruption. The dragging continued even after his death, until his bones were showing.

According to some sources, Hippolytus of Rome, an elder under Pope Pontian, was dragged to death behind a wild horse on the island of Sardinia. He is now the patron saint of horses. In 257, Saturninus of Toulouse was dragged behind a bull around the city until the bull was chased down a flight of stone steps and Saturninus’s brain was dashed from his skull.

Julian the Apostate succeeded Constantius II (who succeeded his father, Constantine the Great) in 361. Julian restored the pagan religions to the empire and horribly persecuted Christians. Within two years, he was ordering them sought out and dragged to death in every city and along the caravan routes throughout Palestine.

 

 

 

 

8Skinned

Removal of the skin is so excruciating that victims invariably passed out multiple times during the torture. To prevent this, they were usually hung upside down so the excess blood flow to their brains forced them to remain conscious. The skin is not easy to remove, and torturers rarely made an effort to remove it in one piece unless they wanted a trophy. Typically, the skin was sliced into strips, then each strip peeled from the body with the aid of a knife. Often, the skin was thrown into a fire or to animals, or dangled before the victim’s eyes.

This is how Bartholomew, one of the 12 apostles, was killed by locals in Armenia, into whose language he translated Matthew’s Gospel. The Armenians refused to abandon their idols and executed Bartholomew by crucifying him upside down and skinning him.

7Sewn Into Skins And Eaten By Dogs

This torture was devised by Nero himself, not merely to cause Christians pain but to entertain him and his guests. Nero was infamously rumored to have crucified Christians on trees in his gardens, coated them with wax, and set them on fire to light his nightly walks (he evidently didn’t mind the stench). Others he ordered sewn into hides—any large animal was skinned, and the prepared skin sewn around the victim except for the head, hands, and feet. Then ravenous dogs were set loose. The victim could only scuttle around on all fours like a crab. Nero was said to have laughed heartily as the dogs gnawed at the skin as they would a bone.

Julian of Antioch was tortured every day for an entire year and displayed to the crowds in every town in Cilicia, (a southern coastal region of what is now Turkey). He was then sewn into a skin filled with asps and scorpions and flung into the Aegean Sea. He was said to have floated all the way across the Mediterranean to Alexandria, Egypt.

6Starved To Death

Emperor Decius ruled from 249 to 251, when he was killed at the Battle of Abrittus in Bulgaria. During his short reign, he had a temple built in Ephesus and required that all Christians sacrifice for the good of the emperor (not “to” the emperor, since this would impute divinity to Decius, who was still alive). This was against Roman law, but the Christians largely considered any similar sacrifice counter to their faith and refused, even when warned that they would be tortured to death. Pope Fabian himself was beheaded over the issue.

The next year, seven of Decius’s best soldiers, Constantinus, Dionysius, Malchus, Martianus, Maximianus, Joannes, and Seraion, were discovered to be Christian converts. Decius attempted to bribe them back to the Roman faith by giving them a long furlough while he was away. They fled the area and hid in a cave. Upon Decius’s return, he was told of their whereabouts and had the cave sealed. All seven died from starvation or dehydration. There is a legend, similar to Rip van Winkle, that these seven men fell asleep and woke up 360 years later, exited the cave and amazed the people in the town.

 

 

 

 

 

5Boiled To Death

Boiling water causes almost instant first-degree burns and will cause third-degree burns after 10 minutes. Eventually, the flesh will slough away deep into the muscle, and death is usually marked by the water turning red as it finally breaches the blood vessels. Tradition holds that John the Apostle, who wrote the Gospel of John, survived without harm after being boiled in a cauldron of oil, after which he was exiled to Patmos Island in the Aegean.

In 222, a woman named Cecilia, possibly Saint Cecilia, was boiled in a bathtub over a bed of coals for a day and a half, after she converted her husband and brother. They were beheaded, as was the captain who led them to their deaths, because he converted in view of the victims’ fearlessness. After Cecilia was drawn alive from the tub, she is said to have sung a song of praise to God, which is why she is the patron saint of music. She was then beheaded. This inspired the Second Nun’s Tale in Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales.

4The Inquisition’s Auto Da Fe

By the 13th century, everybody expected the Spanish Inquisition. The church formed inquisitions in every country in Western Europe, but the Spanish was the most brutal and feared. Anyone found guilty even of reading the Bible in his or her own language was tried, usually convicted, and often executed. The ceremony of execution and torture was called an “Auto da Fe,” or “Act of Faith.” The Inquisition was required not to spill any blood in performing tortures, but this requirement was usually ignored.

The most common method called for the victim to be stripped to his underwear and laid face-up on an elevated platform. Thin cords were passed through holes and wrapped around the limbs, then drawn so tightly that they cut through the victim’s flesh to the bones. If no confession was made, the process was repeated up to four times. If this elicited no confession, the next stage involved folding the arms backward behind the victim with the palms outward, then both arms were tied to a winch that ratcheted them closer and closer until the backs of the hands touched. This ripped both shoulders out of the sockets with such pressure that blood spewed from the mouth. A surgeon would then set the joints and the victim was given two months in prison to recover.

Two months later, the last torture involved a heavy chain lashed around the body with both ends attached to a winch. The arms were pinned straight at the sides and the chain was passed around the wrists. Then it was tightened like a tourniquet until the shoulders and wrists dislocated. The joints were then reset, and the torture immediately inflicted a second time. If the victim still did not confess, he was sent to be burned at the stake. If he did, he was placed in prison for another month or two, then released a cripple.

3Ground To Death In A Mill

Under the rule of Maximian, Saint Victor Maurus may have suffered the most excruciating death of all. He secretly ministered to his parishioners in Milan until about 303, when he was discovered and immediately dragged through the streets behind a horse while the crowds stripped him naked and beat him, then demanded he recant. He refused and was stretched on the rack for a day, during which time he prayed to God for patience. He was then imprisoned—and immediately converted three of his guards. When Maximian heard of this, he ordered the guards beheaded, and Victor racked again, while the torturers beat him savagely with clubs. He was ordered to recant and refused a third time. Maximian had a Roman altar built and ordered Victor to sacrifice incense on it to Jupiter. This enraged Victor, who kicked over the altar. Maximian furiously ordered the offending foot cut off, after which Victor was flung into a stone mill used to grind wheat into flour, and the torturers ground him to death.

2Broken On The Wheel

The breaking wheel is a horribly painful method of torture in which the victim was tied to the side of a wheel laid flat on the ground. Then one of two methods was employed: Either the torturer used a sledgehammer to smash every limb to pulp, or the wheel was made to turn in transection with another, like gears, so that the victim’s body was crushed between them. No bone or section of bone was spared, except the torso and head to keep the victim alive. Sometimes the genitals were smashed. Then the victim was left in this condition to die from exposure, blood loss, or to be eaten by birds and ants.

This was the fate of a man called Peter, in Lampsacus, Mysia (now Lapseki in Turkey), in about 250. He was martyred along with three others: Paul, Andrew, and Dionisia. Dionisia was condemned to be raped to death, but tradition holds that an angel spared her and the three nominated rapists ran away in fear. She then escaped prison, but desired to be martyred like her friends and allowed the authorities to recapture her. She was beheaded, and Paul and Andrew were stoned. Peter was broken on the wheel, then beheaded.

1Having Their Guts Eaten By Pigs

In 363, under Julian the Apostate, Saint Marcus was Bishop of Arethusa, a town near modern Apameia, Syria. Julian ordered Marcus to repair a dilapidated pagan temple, but Marcus destroyed it instead, then fled the city. He soon realized that his Christian followers would pay for what he had done if he did not return—and so he did. The enraged townspeople dragged him through the streets, stripped him naked, stabbed him all over his body with their pencils and quills, then smeared him with honey and suspended him in a basket in a town square, where the wasps and bees would swarm into the basket and devour him.

Several of his followers were discovered and dragged down by the mob, who ripped their bellies open with their bare hands. Corn was packed into their abdomens and pigs were set on them. The pigs devoured the corn—and their intestines.

Understand what the tribulation is all about,and it's not death of the flesh,rather deception, which could lead to the death of your very soul...

 

Who died a more horrific death than the Word, who became flesh. Many believers have died since Christs death and resurrection. Thing is, the rapture will occur  before the antichrist is revealed, and before the beginning of the tribulation, which has not happened yet. He promised that He would rapture His saints out of the world before it happens. You can believe this or not, its up to you. No one is forcing you to believe anything, especially God.

[n2thelight]

47 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Who died a more horrific death than the Word, who became flesh. Many believers have died since Christs death and resurrection. Thing is, the rapture will occur  before the antichrist is revealed, and before the beginning of the tribulation, which has not happened yet. He promised that He would rapture His saints out of the world before it happens. You can believe this or not, its up to you. No one is forcing you to believe anything, especially God.

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

This reverence to Daniel the prophet, Makes the book of Daniel part of the New Testament. This reference is directed to Daniel 9:27.

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Daniel 9:27; "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace. He will say, I am Jesus whom ye have been waiting for, and I have come to bring peace to the world, and the world will be brought to peace and prosperity by Satan, the Antichrist. I feel that this time of world peace will come in a matter of months, or a few years. It will come though.

How did Jesus tell us His coming would be at the second advent? Revelation 19:15, 19 tell us how Jesus will come back to earth, at His second coming:

Revelation 19:15; "And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Jesus will come with a sharp sword to smite the nations of the earth. He will subdue them like grapes in the winepress, not some sweet mushy talk of peace. Jesus shall rule over them with a rod of Iron, because at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, is the start of the Millennium age. That thousand year age kingdom of Christ will be a time of learning and discipline, there will be no flesh on earth, for all will be changed to their incorruptible bodies, and will be of full sound mind, and capable of learning and understand what is being taught them.

"(Whoso readeth, let him understand:)" This is the statement that has the same meaning as," whosoever heareth, let him understand".

 

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

This is not the tribulation of God for there are two tribulations, and this tribulation is the tribulation of the deception. This is the tribulation of the locust army, spoken of in the book of Joel. This locust army will so pervert the minds of all men on earth, that the truth of God word will be as a desolate wilderness. It is at this time that the Holy Spirit will speak through the elect, as recorded in Acts 2:6-8. Where when the faithful of Christ were together, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit of God. They left that room and entered the streets, and when they spoke to the multitude, "every man heard in his own language." This was Pentecost, and the Jews came from every part of the world, speaking all the languages of the world. This was not the turkey calling that is presented today, and it needed no interpreter.

As we read in the book of Joel, there will be a tribulation by this locust army that will come upon the whole earth, that will come from the north, and the destruction that comes upon them, you as one of God's elect have nothing to worry about. Why? Because at the coming of Christ, and the destruction of this locust army, you will be changed into your spiritual body, and it will have no affect upon you. Fear of this time is caused by ignorance, for if you know of God's love for His own, you would know that not a hair on your head will be hurt.

This is the tribulation then of the false Christ. This is the order now that Christ shall draw us back to Himself.

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Please show me how you plan to leave before all of the above???????

[Psalms37:4]

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

I didnt ask for a bottle pop of fizzy nonsense with a side order of a news clip, which frankly israel and the Palestinian Authority wo have entered, broken, re-entered and broken and re-entered and broken peace treaties till the cows have come home over a last couple decades.

 

No what I asked for......is scripture......something like this:

this is my blood of the new covenant shed for many” (Mark 14:24).

 

Matthew 11:28 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁸ Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

I didnt ask for a bottle pop of fizzy nonsense with a side order of a news clip, which frankly israel and the Palestinian Authority wo have entered, broken, re-entered and broken and re-entered and broken peace treaties till the cows have come home over a last couple decades.

 

No what I asked for......is scripture......something like this:

this is my blood of the new covenant shed for many” (Mark 14:24).

Do you think you know what Matthew 11:28 means?

 

Matthew 11:25-30 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

²⁵ Then Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth. I am thankful that you have hidden these things from those who are so wise and so smart. But you have shown them to people who are like little children.²⁶ Yes, Father, you did this because it’s what you really wanted to do.

²⁷ “My Father has given me everything. No one knows the Son—only the Father knows the Son. And no one knows the Father—only the Son knows the Father. And the only people who will know about the Father are those the Son chooses to tell.

²⁸ “Come to me all of you who are tired from the heavy burden you have been forced to carry. I will give you rest. ²⁹ Accept my teaching. Learn from me. I am gentle and humble in spirit. And you will be able to get some rest.³⁰ Yes, the teaching that I ask you to accept is easy. The load I give you to carry is light.”

 

The bible does NOT teach a 7th trumpet rapture and 7th trumpet second coming. The Pre-Trib rapture is the only biblical teachings from God. The Pre-Trib rapture is the only teachings from Jesus: Matthew 24:37-39.

This is what happens when you think you're so smart in your own eschatology attempting to refute the bible.

Romans 11:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁸ Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

⁹ And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
¹⁰ Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

 

Matthew 13:10-15 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁰ And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

¹¹ He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. ¹² For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. ¹³ Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. ¹⁴ And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
¹⁵ For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

 

 

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

And it also states:

Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom 

And you only receive that kingdom in Rev 11:15

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.

Let me remind you the Lord's pray again

Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come

None of that is talking about the kingdom on earth. They all refer to the kingdom in heaven. You're fabricating scriptures trying to get others to believe the rapture and second coming occurring at the 7th trumpet. 

1) This is what you wrote:

"Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom" 

This is what the bible said:

Hebrews 12:28 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁸ Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

A kingdom that cannot be shaken is the kingdom in heaven, not on earth. You should be more honest sometimes instead of pulling selected words out of the context of a verse.

 

2) This is what you wrote:

And you only receive that kingdom in Rev 11:15

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.

This is what the bible said:

Revelation 11:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁶ And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, ¹⁷ saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

The 24 elders are in heaven. They are thanking God because the kingdoms of heaven (not earth) has become the kingdoms of God and Christ.

 

Revelation 11:18 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁸ The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

The Bema Seat is in heaven, not on earth. The rewards are given in heaven, not on earth. The kingdoms of this world that has become the kingdoms of God and Christ is the kingdom in heaven, not earth.

 

Revelation 11:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

The temple of God that opened is mentioned in heaven. Not on earth. The kingdoms of this world that has become the kingdoms of God and Christ is the kingdom in heaven, not earth.

 

Revelation 12:7-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁷ And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, ⁸ but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. ⁹ So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This battle between Michael and satan takes place in heaven, not on earth. After the battle, satan gets kicked out of heaven and cast down to earth. If satan is now on earth, how does that make the kingdoms of this world the kingdom on earth?

The kingdoms of this world that has become the kingdoms of God and Christ is the kingdom in heaven, not earth.

 

Revelation 12:10 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁰ Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Here, satan is no longer allowed in heaven, but is cast down to earth. The kingdoms of this world that has become the kingdoms of God and Christ is the kingdom in heaven, not earth.

 

Revelation 12:12 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹² Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Read what it said ole foolish one. All of heaven is rejoicing! 

Read what else it said ole foolish one. "Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath"

How can "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever" in Revelation 11:15 be referring the kingdoms on earth?

The kingdoms John spoke of in Revelation 11-12 clearly points to the kingdoms in heaven. 

The only way to even remotely make your case for a 7th trumpet rapture and second coming is by fabricating the kingdoms on earth (and not in heaven) now belongs to Christ at the 7th trumpet.

 

3) This is what you wrote:

Let me remind you the Lord's pray again

Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come

 

This part of the Lord's prayer you're quoting is about the kingdom in heaven. See the word "heaven" in there? See the words "Thy kingdom come?" His kingdom is in heaven, not earth. 

You're going through great lengths promoting a heresy trying to get that 7th trumpet rapture / second coming to work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Psalms37:4]

13 hours ago, inchrist said:

Nope Im all good thanks, clearly you're the issue.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers hebs 12:18-29
The object of the writer is to set forth the terrors which accompanied the giving of the Law,--that which the awe-stricken people saw and heard.

Pulpit Commentary
Verses 18-29. - There follows now, both for encouragement and for warning, a grand contrast between the Mosaic and Christian dispensations, founded on the phenomena that accompanied the giving of the Law. To Mount Sinai, with its repelling terrors, is opposed an ideal picture of Mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem, expressive of the communion of saints in Christ

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Compare with, Psalm 68:8 for it was not to be touched by the Israelites, nor by their cattle, Exodus 19:12, that is, at the time that the law was given, and Jehovah was upon it, otherwise it might be touched; and the meaning is, that it was an earthly mountain, that might be approached to, and be seen and felt, and not of a spiritual nature, as Sion, or the church of God; and so may be expressive of the carnality of the law, and also of the movableness of it: 

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
The Hebrews drew near to the material Mount Sinai with material bodies; we, to the spiritual mount in the spirit. The "darkness" was that formed by the clouds hanging round the mount; the "tempest" accompanied the thunder.

Matthew Henry Commentary
12:18-29 Mount Sinai, on which the Jewish church state was formed, was a mount such as might be touched, though forbidden to be so, a place that could be felt; so the Mosaic dispensation was much in outward and earthly things. The gospel state is kind and condescending, suited to our weak frame. Under the gospel all may come with boldness to God's presence. But the most holy must despair, if judged by the holy law given from Sinai, without a Saviour. The gospel church is called Mount Zion;

You should try to be more honest sometimes. These commentaries are opinions on verse 18, not the rest of the chapter, particularly verses 22-24 revealing where the church is raptured to.

 

And Hebrews 12:18 speaks of where the church will NOT be at the rapture.

Hebrews 12:18 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁸ For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,

 

Hebrews 12:22-24 tells us where the church will be at the rapture. 

Hebrews 12:22-24 New King James Version (NKJV)

²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, ²⁴ to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

 

Benson Commentary

Hebrews 12:23-24. To the general assembly — To the Christian Church, consisting of the whole number of true believers spread over all the world. The word πανηγυρις, here used, properly signifies a stated convention, upon some joyful and festival occasion: particularly it is applied to the concourse at the Olympic games; in which view it presents a very elegant and lively opposition to the case of the Israelites, who were struck with a general terror when they were convened before mount Sinai. And church of the firstborn — The whole body of true believers, consisting of converted Jews and Gentiles. The saints are called the firstborn, because under the law the firstborn were peculiarly appropriated to God, and heirs of a double honour and inheritance: and the saints are in a special manner devoted to God, are made his children by a gratuitous adoption, and entitled to the heavenly inheritance.

 

 

This is explicitly clear. The general assembly is the church of the firstborn (the first fruit) and is seen in heaven in Hebrews 12:22-24, before God proclaims judgment upon the world in Hebrews 12:26.

Based on Hebrews 12:22-29, there's no way the rapture and second coming could happen at the 7th trumpet.

The rapture can only be Pre-Trib! 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

13 hours ago, inchrist said:

Let me break this down for you again, starting to get alittle bored repeating myself to be honest.

Immediately after the tribulation...... 

Breaking this down into two parts for you

Part 1
What tribulation? The Great tribulation which christ referenced earlier in Matthew 24:15 & 21......see its called context

Part 2
what comes afterafter the great tribulation? Cosmic signs

The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

You see from the 6th seal all the way to the 6th trumpet, there is a whole lot of cosmic shaking going on. That is your cosmic signs.

the 6th seal right up to the 6th trumpet comes after the great tribulation

So one more time for you

Immediately after the (5th seal - tribulation) of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken (6th seal upto 6th trumpet).

You're opening up a huge can of worms here where you can't even resolve one prophecy.

How does what you wrote prove Revelation 6:12 and Matthew 24:29 are the same event?

Revelation 6:12 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹² I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Matthew 24:29 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁹ “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 

If they are the same event, that would mean you're telling me the 6th seal of Revelation is opened immediately after the tribulation.

Here's the question again. Why would God seal the 144,000 immediately after the tribulation?

The 144,000 is sealed at the 6th seal: Revelation 7:3-8.

 

Here's another question. Why are the 7 trumpets being handed out immediately after the tribulation if they are the same event?

At the 7th seal, we see 7 trumpets given to the 7 angels: Revelation 8:1-2

Revelation 8:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. ² And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

So by making Revelation 6:12 and Matthew 24:29 to be the same event, are you trying to tell us there's another tribulation coming immediately after the tribulation? Double tribulations?

You got a big can of worms here buddy!

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Zemke]

8 hours ago, n2thelight said:

If the 7th trump in Rev is not the last,where is the 8th?

Paul was referring to the last trump when the last of the southern camp would then leave the camp. Revelation was not written then and the text of the apostles was the law and prophets. 

At this time it seems to me the trumpets in Revelation are a separate set of blasts at a specific set time. Unlike a silver trumpet that would be blown at anytime upon command. That's just how I'm looking at this at this time.

I'm all for simple understandings of the text as a whole but I don't believe this is one of those times.

 

[ENOCH2010]

6 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

You're opening up a huge can of worms here where you can't even resolve one prophecy.

How does what you wrote prove Revelation 6:12 and Matthew 24:29 are the same event?

Revelation 6:12 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹² I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Matthew 24:29 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁹ “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 

If they are the same event, that would mean you're telling me the 6th seal of Revelation is opened immediately after the tribulation.

Here's the question again. Why would God seal the 144,000 immediately after the tribulation?

The 144,000 is sealed at the 6th seal: Revelation 7:3-8.

 

Here's another question. Why are the 7 trumpets being handed out immediately after the tribulation if they are the same event?

At the 7th seal, we see 7 trumpets given to the 7 angels: Revelation 8:1-2

Revelation 8:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. ² And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

So by making Revelation 6:12 and Matthew 24:29 to be the same event, are you trying to tell us there's another tribulation coming immediately after the tribulation? Double tribulations?

You got a big can of worms here buddy!

 

 

 

No not double tribulations, after the tribulation is over, the wrath of God is poured out.

[n2thelight]

16 hours ago, Zemke said:

Paul was referring to the last trump when the last of the southern camp would then leave the camp. Revelation was not written then and the text of the apostles was the law and prophets. 

At this time it seems to me the trumpets in Revelation are a separate set of blasts at a specific set time. Unlike a silver trumpet that would be blown at anytime upon command. That's just how I'm looking at this at this time.

I'm all for simple understandings of the text as a whole but I don't believe this is one of those times.

 

It just kills me when people say a certain book wasn't written at the time ,yet the book of Daniel is a perfect overlay of Revelations,and that's just one example...

Paul's last trump states ,we shall all be changed,how can that not be the 7th of Rev,when Christ returns?

Thanks for your kind response...

[n2thelight]

17 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

So by making Revelation 6:12 and Matthew 24:29 to be the same event, are you trying to tell us there's another tribulation coming immediately after the tribulation? Double tribulations?

You got a big can of worms here buddy!

Yes there are two tribulations,one of satan and one of God

[n2thelight]

Another question,how are rapturist to do the below

Revelation 22:7 "Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."

How do you keep the sayings if you not gonna be here?

Edited August 31, 2017 by n2thelight