Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Steve Conley]

On 12/22/2017 at 9:22 PM, Montana Marv said:

Mike

We are to Forgive others, not once but, seven times 70.  Romans 12:14 - Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse, v. 19 - do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath... For It is mine to avenge, I will repay.

We as Believers already know that God will avenge; so we do not need to ask Him to do so.  Those souls under the Altar are the ones who have been beheaded.  No other mode of death is given, only one for those under the Alter.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Montana Marv, they are asking how long. They wanted to know when the long suffering of God would be over (2Pet 3:9-10) and His wrath would fall upon their persecutors. For on that very same day (Lk 17:26-30) they would be clothed upon with their incorruptible body at the first resurrection (1Cor 15; 1Thes 13-17; 2Thes 1:7; 2:1; Rev 20:4-6; Dan 12:1-2). 

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Note some of what we can learn from these three verses:

1) There is no such thing as "soul sleep". The souls under the alter are martyred saints and they are waiting on the resurrection. They are conscious and communicating.

2) At the opening of the fifth seal God's vengeance or wrath has not yet been poured out upon the Beast worshiping earth dwellers who have persecuted the church. Therefore the day of the Lord has not yet begun. (God's wrath upon the day of the Lord shall come suddenly on the very day of Christ's "appearing." 1Thes 5:2-3, Lk 17:26-30).

3) At the opening of the fifth seal, it is said that it will still be a little season before the blood of the martyrs is avenged. (Compare to 2Thes 1:6-10 where God tribulates those who were tribulating the saints.) It is upon the day of the Lord that God's wrath is poured out upon their persecutors. (Note: Joel says that the day of the Lord follows the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal, Joel 2:31; Rev 6:12-17. Also, Jesus says that the cosmic sign immediately follows the great tribulation, Matt 24:29. So, the wrath of God on the day of the Lord comes after the great tribulation, and we are caught out between the two because we are not appointed unto God's wrath. 1Thes 5:9)

Hallelujah

[Joulre2abba]

On 5/13/2003 at 8:37 AM, George said:

Hello brothers and sisters,

 

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the pre-trib rapture theological position.

 

Why do you believe in a pre trib rapture?

 

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

 

George

Because that is what the eschatological Bible verses depict. A person would have to be exposed to other alternate interpretations and accept those doctrinal interpretations as right in order to believe them.

[Steve Conley]

9 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

Because that is what the eschatological Bible verses depict. A person would have to be exposed to other alternate interpretations and accept those doctrinal interpretations as right in order to believe them.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joulre2abba, I would be interested if you could provide even a single verse which says that there will be a pre-trib rapture. You have made an assertion, yet you provided no evidence. You claim that you have found more in the Scriptures than one of the most well known pre-trib eschatological scholars. The late Dr. John Walvoord, Christian theologian, pastor, president of Dallas Theological Seminary, pre-tribulationist, and a highly recognized eschatological scholar, stated that: “One of the problems that face both pretribulationism and posttribulationism is the fact that their point of view is an induction based on scriptural facts rather than an explicit statement of the Bible.” He further said: “The fact is that neither posttribulationism nor pretribulationism is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.” At least he was honest.

Your confidence has no basis in truth.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto The Lord Jesus Christ.

[Joulre2abba]

14 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joulre2abba, I would be interested if you could provide even a single verse which says that there will be a pre-trib rapture. You have made an assertion, yet you provided no evidence. You claim that you have found more in the Scriptures than one of the most well known pre-trib eschatological scholars. The late Dr. John Walvoord, Christian theologian, pastor, president of Dallas Theological Seminary, pre-tribulationist, and a highly recognized eschatological scholar, stated that: “One of the problems that face both pretribulationism and posttribulationism is the fact that their point of view is an induction based on scriptural facts rather than an explicit statement of the Bible.” He further said: “The fact is that neither posttribulationism nor pretribulationism is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.” At least he was honest.

Your confidence has no basis in truth.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto The Lord Jesus Christ.

I provided no evidence because there was no indication from the OP that I had to. Neither was I aware that my post would result in getting a reply like yours. Edited: I've just reread the OP and it does say that this thread is for the purpose to defend the pre-trib position.

Your turn of phrase to accuse me that I made any such claim to know more than John Walvoord does not give me any reason to entrust you with what you would do to my compliance if I gave it.

But irregardless, you have admitted that Walvoord is a pre-trib scholar, and his quote indicates that there are plenty of verses that indicate a pre-trib rapture so I wonder why you have said that my position has no basis in truth.

I would wonder what Walvoord means by "there is nothing explicit" because I have read and heard from any number of Bible students and scholars alike that they have a firm grasp of their position and are quite willing to correct others who believe something else. No doubt any other who would post here would take up your request.

Since this thread is like the other thread for those of the post-trib position, I mistakenly thought that this would be a friendly place to gather with the like minded., but with such evidence of your intent regarding me. And in view of my personal level of knowledge on this topic .. I am not inclined to have you be in position to judge it. Therefore it's wiser for me to decline to provide what you request.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Joulre2abba

[Keras]

Joulre2abba, we who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians. 

As Steve C. says, there is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take Hs people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't! John 3:13, John 17:15, +

We are aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught. 

This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith when what they expect, doesn't happen. 

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew:     Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath.

What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. 

There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing them to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29 

 

 

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

10 minutes ago, Keras said:

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. 

Yeah, that wouldn't explain all of the myriads of Christians beyond number that will be martyred in the Tribulation (Rev. 7).  They won't be living in peace in the Holy Land during that time.  Nothing in the Bible says that.

Quote

There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing them to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29 

Those verses don't claim what you are asserting.   The King of the Jews will reign from His temple during the millennium and the Kingdom will be returned to the Israel and the Jewish people.  And God won't be seeking your approval for that to happen.

Christians are NOT the inheritors of God's promises to Israel/Jewish people. Nothing in those verses assert that. The inheritance of Christians is heavenly, not earthly. 

[Keras]

5 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Yeah, that wouldn't explain all of the myriads of Christians beyond number that will be martyred in the Tribulation (Rev. 7).  They won't be living in peace in the Holy Land during that time.  Nothing in the Bible says that.

Actually, the half of the Christians who will be in the holy Land when the AC conquers them, Zechariah 14:1-2, who keep their faith in God, Daniel 11:32, will be taken to a place of safety, as Revelation 12:14 says. The other half must remain in the Land. I do not see that many will be killed then, just persecuted. 

5 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Christians are NOT the inheritors of God's promises to Israel/Jewish people. Nothing in those verses assert that. The inheritance of Christians is heavenly, not earthly. 

You directly oppose scripture with that statement. Revelation 5:10

Many prophesies tell how the Jewish people will be judged and punished soon, only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Romans 9:27 

It is we Christians who will be the people God always wanted in His Land, but has never had. WE will be His witnesses and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

[Steve Conley]

21 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

I provided no evidence because there was no indication from the OP that I had to. Neither was I aware that my post would result in getting a reply like yours. Edited: I've just reread the OP and it does say that this thread is for the purpose to defend the pre-trib position.

Your turn of phrase to accuse me that I made any such claim to know more than John Walvoord does not give me any reason to entrust you with what you would do to my compliance if I gave it.

But irregardless, you have admitted that Walvoord is a pre-trib scholar, and his quote indicates that there are plenty of verses that indicate a pre-trib rapture so I wonder why you have said that my position has no basis in truth.

I would wonder what Walvoord means by "there is nothing explicit" because I have read and heard from any number of Bible students and scholars alike that they have a firm grasp of their position and are quite willing to correct others who believe something else. No doubt any other who would post here would take up your request.

Since this thread is like the other thread for those of the post-trib position, I mistakenly thought that this would be a friendly place to gather with the like minded., but with such evidence of your intent regarding me. And in view of my personal level of knowledge on this topic .. I am not inclined to have you be in position to judge it. Therefore it's wiser for me to decline to provide what you request.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joulre2abba, I wrote what I did because you and so many others, like I once did, have turned assumptions and guesses into foundational doctrines. Doctrines held right along side of the deity of Christ and justification by faith. The "pre-trib rapture" and the "any moment return of Christ" are false teachings that will leave the church unprepared for the great persecution that lies ahead.

Paul says that the parousia and our gathering unto Christ, which he calls the day of Christ, cannot happen until there is a notable falling away (departure from the faith) and the man of sin be revealed in the Temple shewing himself to be God. The revelation of the man of sin and his defiling of the temple is what begins the great tribulation (Matt 24:15, 21).

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Indeed there will be a rapture of the church (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17) and we will not experience God's wrath, but the rapture doesn't take place until the time of intense persecution that Jesus called great tribulation is cut short (Matt 24:22). The great tribulation will be the wrath of Satan (Rev 12:12) focused upon the church (Matt 24:9, 22, 24; 2Thes 1:6-10; Rev 12:17) and Israel (Rev 12).

Take some advise from a former pre-trib teacher, set aside all your eschatological beliefs and start fresh with just the explicit statements of the Holy Scriptures. When you do that, you will arrive at the historic position of the church that has been recently called the pre-wrath rapture model. The historic church expected to see the antichrist and suffer great tribulation before being raptured. They also expected to escape the wrath of God which follows the great tribulation.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Hallelujah

 

[Joulre2abba]

45 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joulre2abba, I wrote what I did because you and so many others, like I once did, have turned assumptions and guesses into foundational doctrines.

That's not me that assumes or guesses. I believe what Jesus, Paul and Isaiah said. So you are judging them.

Doctrines held right along side of the deity of Christ and justification by faith. The "pre-trib rapture" and the "any moment return of Christ" are false teachings that will leave the church unprepared for the great persecution that lies ahead.

I am just as certain as you sound, but even more so since I have not accepted a doctrine taught by uninspired men.

Your beliefs require you to ignore the pertinent verses or interpret them differently than intended in order to not have to deal with it's truth.

Paul says that the parousia and our gathering unto Christ, which he calls the day of Christ, cannot happen until there is a notable falling away (departure from the faith) and the man of sin be revealed in the Temple shewing himself to be God. The revelation of the man of sin and his defiling of the temple is what begins the great tribulation (Matt 24:15, 21).

The text does not say "departure from faith". The Bible version you quote has "from faith" in italics which means that it isn't there in the original text. Are you not aware of the Bibles that were printed prior to the King James which all used the word "departure" and only "departure" in that text? Which very much indicates that the departure was not that of a change in allegiance to God, but of a physical removal from the earth.

To interpret it as a change of allegiance is taking it out of context with the full teaching of Paul in the chapter.

And the following verse confirms that by stating "he is taken out of the way." Some say that "he" is the Holy Spirit but why should He need to be 'caught up' in order to be removed from the earth? And further more, why think that the Holy Spirit must leave when He is necessary in order that those alive during the Tribulation can be saved.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Indeed there will be a rapture of the church (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17) and we will not experience God's wrath, but the rapture doesn't take place until the time of intense persecution that Jesus called great tribulation is cut short (Matt 24:22).

Mat.24:30 is pertaining to the Second Coming. When he comes the tribes (the twelve Jewish) will mourn. They mourn, not rejoice. So it's not the church that sees him. They mourn because they regret their mistake in not sooner believing that He Jesus is indeed the Christ. When He comes in the clouds the church that had been 'caught up' to heaven prior to the start of the Tribulation, represented by the apostle John in Rev.4:1.. so they are all accompanying Jesus as stated in Rev.19:14.

This is supported by the text in Isaiah 26:19 (1 Thes.4:13-17). And verse 20 (John 14:2). And verse 20 Close your doors behind you (Rev.3:7) And verse 20 Hide for awhile until indignation (satan's wrath) runs it's course. And verse 21 (paraphrased- Jesus comes out from his place in heaven to come to the earth to punish iniquity).

Mat.24:22 the church who is loved by the Bridegroom will not subject to God's wrath.. which is only for those of iniquity to experience. The events are cut short else the elect will not be saved. Since the gentile saints had been all martyred and in heaven, then the only remaining elect is the Jews.

The great tribulation will be the wrath of Satan (Rev 12:12) focused upon the church (Matt 24:9, 22, 24; 2Thes 1:6-10; Rev 12:17) and Israel (Rev 12).

The apostle Paul wrote that the church is not appointed unto wrath. And also, the church that restrains the lawlessness now will have to be removed else the lawless one can not be revealed or do his dastardly evil.

That is why Jesus says to the church of Philadelphia that because it has kept the word of His perseverance, it shall be kept from that time of tribulation that shall be on the earth.

God's focus is then upon the Jews and protecting them during the Tribulation. The gentiles saved and called saints are rounded up by the antichrist and martyred.

The chapter of Matthew concerning the Tribulation is not addressed to the church, but to the Jews as they will be on the earth during that time.

Being hated by all nations on account of My name Mat.24:9 the persecution of Christians haven't got anything on the persecution of the Jews. Fourty years after Jesus said that they were invaded, the Temple destroyed in 70AD. The Bible is full of incidences when they were persecuted.

The false Christ that deceives of Mat.24:24 the Jews is the lawless one who they see as a Cyrus because he arranges the confirming of the covenant which will result in their building their Temple and make animal sacrifices. It's only when he defiles the Temple that they realize that he's an Antiochus Epiphanes.

Take some advise from a former pre-trib teacher,

It's unfortunate that you didn't stick with your first correct teaching.

set aside all your eschatological beliefs and start fresh with just the explicit statements of the Holy Scriptures.

I am using explicit verses of scripture while I've shown that you have misinterpreted those you've given.

When you do that, you will arrive at the historic position of the church that has been recently called the pre-wrath rapture model.

What you have posted is not the historic position of the church, it's the position of those who lost the Biblical foundation that the early church fathers taught.

The historic church expected to see the antichrist and suffer great tribulation before being raptured. They also expected to escape the wrath of God which follows the great tribulation.

Paul stated that the church would be taken out of the way in order for the lawless one to be revealed. It was his response to those who had identified Caesar as the lawless one and said that the Day of the Lord had occurred.

According to Paul and Jesus the church will escape wrath by being raptured before it occurs.

I'll stick with what Paul said, he's anointed, his words are of inspiration. I'll stick with what Jesus said, and Isaiah.. those among others that can be found in the Bible. Any subsequent teacher who says different, is not.

You believe in a non guaranteed escape from wrath. What scripture promises it? Certainly not the one below.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Hallelujah

 

 

 

[ENOCH2010]

Steve you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.