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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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1 hour ago, Sojourner414 said:

You ask that a member be banned for disagreeing with you, then insult everyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture and do the same thing to all of them that you claim is being done to you?

 I do not call presenting the truth of scripture an insult to anyone. What is rude and disgusting, is the personal attacks made by those whose beliefs are challenged. I almost sympathize, as I know they haven't a leg to stand on with their false teachings.  I see no scriptural proof in your post above, just a mishmash of opinion and fantasy. 

 

1 hour ago, Sojourner414 said:

Keep in mind that Isaiah specifies that children will play near cobra's dens, while Jesus stated that when transformed, we would be "as the angels".

Isaiah 65:17-25 is about timeless Eternity, after the Millennium. When 'we will be as the angels', all whose names are found in the Book of Life. 

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34 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Revelation 12:1-6 is Israel, who gave birth to the Messiah.

Correct, but specifically it is about Judah.

35 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The woman is Israel, not Christians and it is the woman, ethnic Israel that is being hidden in Judean Wilderness.

The 'woman' of Rev 12:6-17, is quite plainly the Christian people. Saying otherwise is a direct contradiction of scripture. 

The faithful Christians will be taken much further than that. They will go to the other side of the world, well away from those graphically described disasters of the Great Tribulation.

42 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Sorry, but you have already shown your colors and British Israel cult that you subscribe to.   The Bible only ever defines the "Israel of God" as Jewish believers. 

Another false accusation from a uninformed person. The Israel of God are every faithful Christian, His Overcomers. Galatians 6:16 states it and it is only those who twist its meaning and ignore its context, that have to make it mean what it doesn't. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Keras said:

Correct, but specifically it is about Judah.

No it is not.  The Bible doesn't say that.

Quote

The 'woman' of Rev 12:6-17, is quite plainly the Christian people. Saying otherwise is a direct contradiction of scripture. 

The woman is only vv. 1-6.  Verses 6-17 are saints who were martyred who loved their lives not unto death.   They were not protected and were killed, contrary to your teaching.

Quote

The faithful Christians will be taken much further than that. They will go to the other side of the world, well away from those graphically described disasters of the Great Tribulation.

Now, you're just making stuff up.   The great tribulation isn't local.  It is worldwide.

Quote

Another false accusation from a uninformed person. The Israel of God are every faithful Christian, His Overcomers. Galatians 6:16 states it and it is only those who twist its meaning and ignore its context, that have to make it mean what it doesn't. 

The term "Israel of God" is used only one time in the NT and it refers ONLY to Jewish believers.   God never calls Gentile believers, "Israel."

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On 7/29/2017 at 6:08 PM, Zoltan777 said:

I haven't read through this thread yet but I don't believe in rapture before the tribulation. Ask me why....

Firstly, it's a fairly new theology. It came to know only in the 19th century by John Nelson Darby. He separated the day of Jesus Christ and Lord's day as two different event but his references from bible is very feeble. Later on his followers added some other verses as you can see in this topic  as well but still....very lame.

My answer on this matter is very simple and I don't need dig very deep to find something very interesting which came from the mouth of Jesus when he prayed to the Father for his disciples before the Passover.

John: 17. 15. I pray not that you would take them from the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one. 

Jesus never wanted his disciples to be taken up before the tribulation that happened in 70.a.d.

So why would we think that he wants it now? If he didn't spare his disciples back then why would he do it now? I am just using common sense here but I believe firmly we all need to go all the hardship where most of us will be killed like Jews in the Holocaust.

Also, the Bible says that power will be given to the Antichrist over the God's people and he will kill most of them. But how can it be if there is no Christian left because they  were taken up?

There won't be any rapture before the Tribulation.

Was Noah rescued when God sent the Flood? Yes - he and his family escaped God's wrath.

Was Lot rescued when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes - he escaped God's wrath.

Were Christians raptured when Nero threw them to the lions? No, because this was not the wrath of God but the wrath of evil.

Are Christians in the Middle East being raptured in order to avoid being tortured or murdered by ISIS? No, because this is not an act of God, but an act of evil.

God rescues the righteous from his own wrath. He does not necessarily rescue them from the persecution of evil ones.

The Great Tribulation will be a time of woe for the righteous; where Christians will be persecuted, refused the right to buy and sell and some even beheaded.God does not persecute the righteous, so the Great Tribulation is clearly an act of evil performed by the Antichrist. Christians will not be raptured.

After the Tribulation, Jesus will return and send his wrath on those who have taken the mark of the Beast. This is the wrath of God, and Christians will be raptured away from it. The rapture is a post-Trib event, not a pre-Trib one.

There is nothing in the Bible that supports a pre-Trib rapture. Any verses that pre-Tribbers find to support their claim are equally valid when describing a post-trib rapture. The pre-Trib rapture is simply wishful thinking. Think of all the Christian martyrs that have existed throughout history and today in the Middle East. Yet some American Christians think they are special in God's eyes and will escape what their forerunners had to endure.

The pre-Trib rapture is a 'feel good' teaching for people who like to have their ears tickled, but it is not Biblical. Matthew 24 clearly tells us that times of persecution are ahead, yet pre-Tribbers love to bury their heads in the sand.

I'm not interested in what anybody believes, they can believe in what they like. People often believe what they want to hear. I'm only interested in the truth. If I find a truth and don't like it, I still have to swallow it and accept it.

The truth is the word of God which is scripture; and scripture tells me that there is no pre-Trib rapture. It's clear and it's simple, but if you have a bias then you will probably reject the truth. I was not taught pre-Trib rapture and I was not taught post-Trib rapture. I was not even taught about the rapture, I'd never heard of it before becoming a Christian; so I had no pre-conceived ideas and no bias.

I simply studied scripture, and discovered that there was a rapture but no pre-Trib rapture.

 

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22 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The woman is only vv. 1-6.  Verses 6-17 are saints who were martyred who loved their lives not unto death.   They were not protected and were killed, contrary to your teaching.

The 'woman' is mentioned 4 times in Rev 12:6-7. It plainly refers to the Christian people. I have never said that nobody would be killed for their faith. That happens now and will continue until Jesus Returns. 

26 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Now, you're just making stuff up.   The great tribulation isn't local.  It is worldwide.

Read the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls. Most just state they will affect 1 or 2 thirds of the world and all say they are directed against those with the mark of the beast. 

I live in New Zealand. We are the Antipodes of Israel, so what happens in that area doesn't affect us. Maybe NZ will be the place of safety!

32 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The term "Israel of God" is used only one time in the NT and it refers ONLY to Jewish believers.   God never calls Gentile believers, "Israel."

Your opinion, that is refuted by the context of all the epistle of Galatians, that is almost entirely about how we Christians are the true People of God. 

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8 minutes ago, Keras said:

The 'woman' is mentioned 4 times in Rev 12:6-7. It plainly refers to the Christian people. I have never said that nobody would be killed for their faith. 

You have gone on and on about how Christians will be protected in the Holy Land from the AC and Revelation 7 clearly says you are wrong.

Secondly, the woman is in vv. 1-6. That's Israel. Her offspring are believers and they will be killed during the Tribulation.   That is fact.  The woman will be taken out into the wilderness, but not her offspring, when the woman cannot be found, the beast will make war with her offspring the saints, and he will overcome them as can be seen by the innumerable number of Christian martyrs during the Tribulation.

Quote

 

That happens now and will continue until Jesus Returns. 

Read the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls. Most just state they will affect 1 or 2 thirds of the world and all say they are directed against those with the mark of the beast. 

I live in New Zealand. We are the Antipodes of Israel, so what happens in that area doesn't affect us. Maybe NZ will be the place of safety!

 

According to Revelation, there will not be anywhere that is safe.  There will no place that is not facing the worst destruction known to man.  All of the oceans will be turned into blood, no one will be able to find relief, not even in New Zealand.

 

Quote

Your opinion, that is refuted by the context of all the epistle of Galatians, that is almost entirely about how we Christians are the true People of God. 

No, Galatians is not about who is or is not Israel.   It is about those Judaizers who misled the Galatian believers to think they had to convert to the Jewish religion in order to be saved. 

In Galatians 6:16, Paul distinguishes Gentile believers from the "Israel of God" and it is borne out in the Greek.

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34 minutes ago, OakWood said:

There won't be any rapture before the Tribulation.

Was Noah rescued when God sent the Flood? Yes - he and his family escaped God's wrath.

Was Lot rescued when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes - he escaped God's wrath.

Were Christians raptured when Nero threw them to the lions? No, because this was not the wrath of God but the wrath of evil.

Are Christians in the Middle East being raptured in order to avoid being tortured or murdered by ISIS? No, because this is not an act of God, but an act of evil.

God rescues the righteous from his own wrath. He does not necessarily rescue them from the persecution of evil ones.

The Great Tribulation will be a time of woe for the righteous; where Christians will be persecuted, refused the right to buy and sell and some even beheaded.God does not persecute the righteous, so the Great Tribulation is clearly an act of evil performed by the Antichrist. Christians will not be raptured.

After the Tribulation, Jesus will return and send his wrath on those who have taken the mark of the Beast. This is the wrath of God, and Christians will be raptured away from it. The rapture is a post-Trib event, not a pre-Trib one.

There is nothing in the Bible that supports a pre-Trib rapture. Any verses that pre-Tribbers find to support their claim are equally valid when describing a post-trib rapture. The pre-Trib rapture is simply wishful thinking. Think of all the Christian martyrs that have existed throughout history and today in the Middle East. Yet some American Christians think they are special in God's eyes and will escape what their forerunners had to endure.

The pre-Trib rapture is a 'feel good' teaching for people who like to have their ears tickled, but it is not Biblical. Matthew 24 clearly tells us that times of persecution are ahead, yet pre-Tribbers love to bury their heads in the sand.

I'm not interested in what anybody believes, they can believe in what they like. People often believe what they want to hear. I'm only interested in the truth. If I find a truth and don't like it, I still have to swallow it and accept it.

The truth is the word of God which is scripture; and scripture tells me that there is no pre-Trib rapture. It's clear and it's simple, but if you have a bias then you will probably reject the truth. I was not taught pre-Trib rapture and I was not taught post-Trib rapture. I was not even taught about the rapture, I'd never heard of it before becoming a Christian; so I had no pre-conceived ideas and no bias.

I simply studied scripture, and discovered that there was a rapture but no pre-Trib rapture.

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Oakwood, you make many good points. What do you think of my reasoning below?

There is only one future coming (parousia) of Christ. The Scriptures speak of Him appearing the second time, not a third.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The word "coming", translated from "parousia" means, arrival and continuing presence. Notice that the word is used of both the gathering of the saints and His appearing in all His glory with the holy angels.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

Christ's parousia involves all His eschatological activities from His appearing for every eye to see, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture, the trumpet judgements, the vial judgements, and even Rev 19:11-21 where He destroys the Beast and the armies that follow him. All of these activities will take at a minimum, many months.

Jesus says that the day of the rapture of the saints will be the day He begins to pour out His wrath upon the unbelieving earth-dwellers.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Paul says that the church will rest from persecution on the day that Christ brings tribulation upon the Beast worshiping earth-dwellers.

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul says that we are not appointed unto the wrath of God upon the day of the Lord, which will fall suddenly upon the Beast worshiping earth-dwellers.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
...
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The wrath that we are not going to experience is God's day of the Lord wrath. It just so happens that we are told when the day of the Lord will begin. It begins after the cosmic sign of Joel appears.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

John identifies the timing of this cosmic sign which comes before the day of the Lord begins in relation to the seals which Jesus alone can open.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Jesus identifies this cosmic sign in relation to the great tribulation saying it comes immediately after it.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So, Christ's parousia takes place at some point in the second half of the week after the opening of the sixth seal when the cosmic sign appears immediately after the great tribulation. That is when Jesus arrives for us, not before.

Note: Jesus tells us that the period of great tribulation (unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel) is shortened to save some of the elect alive (Matt 24:22). Great tribulation doesn't continue for the duration of the Beast's 42 months, it is cut short.

The activities described in Revelation 19 are those at the end of the eschatological wrath of God on the day of the Lord. Notice that Christ's vesture is already soiled with the blood of His enemies.

It is Satan's desire to have the saints unprepared for the great persecution that is to befall the last generation of the church and Israel.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.

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KERAS, this will knock your socks off. Scripture teaches that there has been one rapture already and will be four more raptures in the first resurrection?

First rapture was, the going to Heaven of Christ and the saints who were resurrected after HIS resurrection (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 4:7-11; Acts 1:11).

Second, The rapture of those "that are Christs at His coming" (1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:13-16).

Third, The rapture of the 144,000 Jews in the middle of the Week (Rev. 12:5; 14:1-5; Dan. 12:1; Isa. 66:7-8).

Fourth, The rapture of the tribulation saints (Rev. 7:9-17; 15: 2-4; 20:4-6).

Fifth, The rapture of the two witnesses (Rev. 11:3-12).

That there are two main resurrections from the dead with a thousand years between them. The first is that of the blessed and holy; and this is before the thousand years, for we read "THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTILL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED" (Rev. 20:4-15).

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1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

First rapture was, the going to Heaven of Christ and the saints who were resurrected after HIS resurrection

Jesus doesn't count, as He is the One who came from there. John 3:13

The saints of Matthew 27:52-53, or any other scripture, are never mentioned that they would go to heaven. The martyrs of Rev 20:4 remain on earth, as will all those transported to where Jesus is at His Return. 

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

Third, The rapture of the 144,000 Jews in the middle of the Week (Rev. 12:5; 14:1-5; Dan. 12:1; Isa. 66:7-8).

None of your scriptures mention a 'rapture'. You have a very confused idea of the 144,000, who cannot be all Jews, as they represent only 2 of the 12 tribes.  Their job is to proclaim the Glory of the Lord, Isaiah 66:19, they aren't being taken away from that. 

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

Fourth, The rapture of the tribulation saints (Rev. 7:9-17; 15: 2-4; 20:4-6).

Absolute unscriptural nonsense. The vast multitude of Rev 7:9, is in Jerusalem, proved by the earthly scene set by verses 1-3 and by Rev 14:1, where Jesus reveals Himself to His people, as described in 2 Thess 1:10

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

Fifth, The rapture of the two witnesses (Rev. 11:3-12).

Congrats, this is right! But remember they were killed and dead for 3 days before it. In no way does anyone else equate to their status. 

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

That there are two main resurrections from the dead with a thousand years between them. The first is that of the blessed and holy; and this is before the thousand years, for we read "THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTILL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED" (Rev. 20:4-15).

The ONLY people raised when Jesus Returns, is those killed for their faith during the 3 1/2 year period of the Anti-Christ world control. Revelation 20:4   Every other person who has died since Adam, awaits the GWT Judgement at the end of the Millennium. 

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1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

First rapture was, the going to Heaven of Christ AND THE SAINTS WHO WERE RESURRECTED AFTER HIS RESURRECTION.  

 

Quote

"Keras said; Jesus doesn't count, as He is the One who came from there. John 3:13."

 

Yes it does. Read the full scripture, AND THE SAINTS WHO WERE RESURRECTED AFTER HIS RESURRECTION.  Those who were in Paradise with Him, where He went to with the repentant thief, were all raptured, taken to Heaven with Him when He rose from the dead. Ephesians 4:8, Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

John 3:13, And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, refers to,

Gr. anabaino, to go up of their power, not as was Enoch (Gen. 5:24; Heb. 11:5, Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), Paul (2 Cor. 12:1-3, and John (Rev. 4:1).

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