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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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Definite proof that the rapture is before the antichrist and tribulation. (Finis J. Dake)

 

 

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The Second Coming of Christ, the mark of the beast and Antichrist will not be a world ruler.

 

 

 

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On 3/26/2018 at 4:04 PM, Keras said:

Joulre2abba, we who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians. 

I appreciate that you are concerned, however it's according to the unbiblical belief that you subscribe to. So please do not be concerned any longer. On the other hand it is we of the orthodox majority that has the belief that there is a heaven to go to when all die, that I am concerned for you who die .. without a heaven to go to.

As Steve C. says, there is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take Hs people up to heaven in these end times.

Are you then differentiating that believers did at some time go to heaven when they die.. but that there is no such place now in these end times?

That's just silly, the Revelation has the apostle John being caught up to heaven- where Jesus is.. and in other verses the saints are also in heaven. So why would God in heaven send his son Jesus from heaven to the earth, then Jesus ascending to heaven, the Jesus return to gather up all believers to heaven, of which the apostle John sees when he is taken up there?

There are way too many scriptures that speak of heaven for any Christian to be of sound mind in saying that there is no heaven, or to say that Christians won't be raptured to heaven.

There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't! John 3:13, John 17:15, +

John 3:13 is spoken at a time before heaven was receiving any believers when they died. They all instead went to shoel, the upper regions of it as described in Lk.16. However, after Jesus was risen from the dead, the graves were opened, then when Jesus ascended he took them all up to heaven. The apostle Paul out of many verses extrapolated: said that all who die go to heaven. So the use of Jn.3:13 was accurate then, but is not accurate anylonger. You should update your understanding to reflect the epistalic new testament truths.. and avoid others pointing out your own error. [epistalic: epistle]

John 17:15 That request is in regard to the disciples staying on the earth in order to preach the gospel, rather than to be taken up alive when the resurrected saints go with Jesus at his ascension into heaven. Compare with what Paul wrote in 1 Thes.4:13-18. Obviously Jesus did not request in Jn.17:15 that believers never go to heaven., else how could his statement in Jn.14:3 that believers would be with him, be true? Since he said 14:3 first, that does not mean that 17:15 negates 14:3.

Jesus always spoke the truth to those who heard him. One truth does not negate another.

So neither of those scriptures you gave are useable as a suitable argument for your theology.

We are aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught. 

Any truth taught is acceptable. And it's good to see that that one truth is firm within that person.

This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith when what they expect, doesn't happen. 

A truth spoken by Jesus cannot fail, therefore none will fall from faith in holding fast to it. However, those who believe as you do have already departed from the truth that Jesus spoke.

And it's a very sad state of affairs that you seek to find others to accept your unbelief.

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew:     Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath.

The apostle Paul has already stated that the Church will not (as you put it) "face the Lord's wrath". We being the body of Christ, why would we.. since he is the head, and we being with him at his Second Coming, do not experience his wrath that he brings only upon the unbelieving sinners.

We being the Bride of Christ are not to be so abused by our Bridegroom as he punishes the ungodly. Even the Jews are to be protected from "the Lord's wrath" during the Tribulation.

But according to you who aren't raptured, you will during the Tribulation be treated with punishment along with the ungodly. Where is God's love as his children in that?

No, it all adds up to the theology of men who don't understand all aspects of the scriptures that tell the Bride of Christ that we will not experience his wrath.

What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

The quote from Joel indicates "delivered", as does Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13. The original text can interchange the translation to deliverance and or salvation depending on the context.

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. 

You suppose then that Christians who are faithful in believing the scriptures that tell of the rapture, are actually forfeiting on the promises of God for protection? As if being raptured is not protection.

It's unfortunate that your theology so limits God.

And btw, what pray tell is the peace and prosperity to be had during the Tribulation of satan's wrath and God's wrath?

There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing them to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29 

Mat.21:43 is talking about the particular Pharisees who did not accept him as the Messiah. Therefore the kingdom of God could not be available to them. Even as Paul said that the Christians could not enter into the kingdom of God if they practiced any unrighteousness.

So it means that any Pharisee, such as Paul, can enter into the kingdom. We know that he did. Even as many entered on the day of Pentecost. And it's very clear that those who see him at his Second Coming and say "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" do enter into the kingdom.

But that you use the Mat verse to say that Christians who believe in the very clear teaching of the apostle Paul concerning the rapture, will somehow miss out on any of God's promises to the Church.. is a very clear indication that your eschatology is in error.

The verses that you take to apply to you, do also apply to every Christian who believes in the rapture to heaven.. for we are fellow heirs even as you consider yourself to be. No different belief in rapture vs no rapture will change that.

Rom.8:17 + 22 means that the suffering of the saints occurs before the rapture. Then vs.23 speaks of the redemption of our bodies., how do you interpret "redemption of our bodies" according to your erroneous theology? As I read it, it refers back to "being glorified with him".

Gal.3:26-29 means to me in reading it, that all includes all, and therefore we who believe in the rapture to heaven. Your different theology concerning us, is in error and therefore what you think will happen to us is only in your beliefs, which has nothing to do with our faith in God's word of being raptured and therefore not destined for wrath (1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10)

 

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Respectfully, is this thread an okay place to take a contrary stance? I was a big defender of pre-trib until some things struck me, one of them being:

Pre-trib forces all kinds of jumping about in the gospel eschatons, but pre-wrath allows Matthew 24 and 25 et al to be read completely chronologically, verse 1 then 2 then 3 . . .

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On 4/1/2018 at 5:00 PM, Sojourner414 said:

2) The only One who is able to be the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit, and the Man of Lawlessness cannot appear until the Restrainer is taken out of the way. In Scripture, the Lord promises to never leave us nor forsake us;  since that is the case, to remove the Restrainer without those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit would utterly shatter this promise, when the Restrainer is removed, so are those sealed by Him (The Holy Spirit).

The Holy Spirit does not have to be taken out of the world in order to stop restraining.  In fact the Holy Spirit cannot be taken out of the world for a couple reasons at least.  Number one, from Job 34:14 If it were his intention
    and he withdrew his spirit and breath,
15 all humanity would perish together
    and mankind would return to the dust.

This is what would happen if the Holy Spirit were to be taken from the earth.  All humanity would perish together if that were to happen.

Second If the Holy Spirit were to be taken from the earth it would follow that He would have to stop being God.  The nature of Gods is that He is omnipresent.  He not being on earth would a least disqualify Him from this attribute.

On 4/1/2018 at 5:00 PM, Sojourner414 said:

3) If the Rapture does not happen before the Second Coming, then there cannot be a Final Rebellion in the Millennial Kingdom near the end of the 1000 years. Once changed, believers will never rebel again against the Lord, so that means the rebellion will not come from them; it will have to come from mortal people in the Millennium. And if the Rapture were to happen at the Second Coming, then everyone who trusts in the Lord will be changed and all who do not are destroyed. But since there will be children who are born in and grow up during the Millennial Kingdom, there needs to be people in their mortal bodies for this to happen, as when the Rapture happens, we are transformed and will no longer procreate.

Your reasoning precludes many assumptions that do not follow the course of scripture.  There cannot be a rapture before the Second Coming because there is not a resurrection before the Second coming.  There is not a resurrection before the end of the tribulation but the last day resurrection is at the end of the thousand years.  That would be the time of the rapture.  The population of the thousand years is made up of those who have lived through the tribulation and the maryters who are raised to reign.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 

Rev. 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

At the beginning of the thousand years the wrath of God has cleansed the earth of the tares that were sown by the evil one.  No one who is not born of God, saved will make it through the tribulation.

Malachi 4 [a]“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

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50 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:

Amen brother, and that's not all there is. There is Much more to the horse manure called the pre trib rapture. A ship with many holes.   

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the
just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the
tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose
for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape
the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He
said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of,
Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before
the Son of man,” Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John
14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture.
Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor.
15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to
escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things
through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul
explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or
second advent of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air
where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present
them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to
the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are
in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their
coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14;
Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly
Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but
both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the
Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The
Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until
after the tribulation.

A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared
a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can
make Himself understood. Please understand this my friends, God will
hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to
say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false
in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that
rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word
that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48;
Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of
changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of
ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself
to be.
The Rapture of the Church before the
Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead

and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order
that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them.
Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were
to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you many be accounted worthy
to escape all these things of, 
Matt. 24, 25; Luke
21:1-19, 25-28, that
shall come to pass,
and stand before the Son of man,” 
Luke 21:34-36. These
two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3 are the only ones in the Gospels
that are clear concerning the Rapture.
. Jesus did not
reveal this, it was
revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51.
The
disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless
they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His
power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how
they were to escape.

he Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second

coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at
that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but

in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to
present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16,
17.

he Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of

Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The
saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the
Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude
14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or

Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is

Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place
before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the
Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent
cannot occur until after the tribulation.

Take note, this is very important to

understand that the church will be taken out of the world before the Antichrist
is revealed and before the tribulation begins!


The bible clearly states that the hinderer of lawlessness must be

removed before the Antichrist is revealed,  2 Thess. 2:7-8, For the
mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until
he be taken out of the way. V. 8, And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom
the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the
brightness of his coming:

There are only there things in the

world today that hinder lawlessness. They are the church, the Holy Spirit and
human governments. The hinderer that will be taken out of the world must refer
to one of these three things. It could not refer to the Holy Spirit and
governments for neither will be taken out of the world. It is clear that
governments will not be taken for the Antichrist will reign over the ten
kingdoms during the tribulation (Dan. 7:23-24; Rev. 17:8-17). The Holy Spirit
will be here during the tribulation, so He could not be the hinderer taken
(Acts. 2:16-21; John 14:16; Rev. 7:14; 12:17; 19:10; Zech. 12:10).


he Church will be taken out of the world,  (1 Thess. 4:16; Eph. 5:26-27; 1 Cor. 15:51-58), so this must be the hinderer referred to.


If you cannot understand how the church could be referred to as "he," see Eph. 2:15; 4:13 where the church is called a "man."

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14 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:
On 4/7/2018 at 4:32 PM, seeking the lost said:

.

1) Scripture says the Restrainer would be taken out of the way; you cannot get around that. Not to mention, unbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit. Additionally, if God wishes to not be present somewhere, He can do that; God is not a slave to His power, unless you think He's in the Lake of Fire with unbelievers.

Taken out of the way does not mean taken from the earth.  Do not neglect to understand Job 34:14,15

14 If it were his intention
    and he withdrew his spirit[a] and breath,
15 all humanity would perish together
    and mankind would return to the dust.

Now that you mention it yes He is in the Lake of Fire.

Psalm 139:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

14 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

2) The problem with this line of thinking is: if the rapture happens at the end of the Tribulation, none of them can have children. And exactly where do you think the countless number who rebel against the Lord and march on "the camp of the saints" comes from? Not to mention Scripture mentions that children would safely play near a cobra's den; in resurrected form, none of us will be having children. 

I have never said that the rapture happens at the end of the tribulation.  The only time that the rapture can happen is at the end of the thousand years.  That is the time of the resurrection.  That is the time that the sea gives up its dead and the books are opened.  That is the time of the rapture.

The millennium is populated by those who are raised in the first resurrection and those who have survived the tribulation.  Revelation 20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The days of the tribulation are shortened for the sake of the elect.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.  

Enjoy the dance but do not step on toes that are of another partner.

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On 5/15/2016 at 6:56 PM, Guest Robert said:

ALL of us are messed up, period. That's why we need Jesus in the first place. But as to the question here: Hal Lindsey pointed out that in this dispensation (the age of Grace), there is now no difference between Jew and gentile who trust in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:12). The Age of Law was paused before "Daniel's last week", when the kingdom was offered by Jesus Christ to Israel and they rejected Him by crucifying him. After the Rapture, the "clock" starts again on the last week when the Beast makes the agreement with the "many".

My point here is that if the Church were to be here for the Tribulation, then there would be a difference between the Jewish and Gentile believers. The Age of Law starts once again, and the 490 years Daniel spoke of finishes out. Not to mention there really is no point to the church being here for the Tribulation: if Christ's blood is not enough to cleanse us, nothing else is. If it's to suffer, we would do well to keep in mind that there are already believers out here in the world who are going through tremendous trials and suffering. Another thing to consider as well: if it were a post-trib rapture, Rev 19 mentions that we would return with Jesus Christ at Armageddon. So, we would be running into ourselves and literally would not know if we were coming or going.

And the Rapture is called "The Blessed Hope"; not much of a hope if we leave after the trib. That's like calling the fire department for a fire after it burned to the ground and all that's left is smoking ashes.

I do suppose we are all messed up in some way. This clearly makes us brethren in more than just the faith of God; therefore we should have empathy toward on another, love in reality. Even as we see what we think is wrong in another, and we may be right about that, we should consider how we have erred as well. But you probably know that. Still, it bears repeating. :)

I'm clearly not a pretribber. I have to ask, "Why the emotional arguments?" Like the, "...if it's to suffer..." or, "...the fire department..." arguments? In all these years I never understood why, still don't. 

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On 4/20/2018 at 5:24 PM, Sojourner414 said:

1) Scripture says the Restrainer would be taken out of the way; you cannot get around that. Not to mention, unbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit. Additionally, if God wishes to not be present somewhere, He can do that; God is not a slave to His power, unless you think He's in the Lake of Fire with unbelievers.

There is no way around this brother, but there is the truth. The restrainer is not a who but a what. Two 'whats' to be precise. Paul says, "...now you know WHAT withholds..." The direct antecedent to this is the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin. Two events, not a person or people. What is being withheld is another sets of events: The coming of our Lord and the gathering together of us to Him. 

On 4/20/2018 at 5:24 PM, Sojourner414 said:

2) The problem with this line of thinking is: if the rapture happens at the end of the Tribulation, none of them can have children. And exactly where do you think the countless number who rebel against the Lord and march on "the camp of the saints" comes from? Not to mention Scripture mentions that children would safely play near a cobra's den; in resurrected form, none of us will be having children. 

Well there are a number of people who are not raptured, and are not slain by the Lord, left alive at the end. These are some of the people that will repopulate the earth. There will be a remnant of people in Jerusalem that will flee to the valley created by the split in the Mount of Olives when the Lord comes to do battle with the armies arrayed against Jerusalem.

It's also possible there might some people who come out of hiding that have survived, like those that flee after the A of D. Perhaps even those who are taken to the wilderness by the great eagle. There is also something Daniel says about Jordan being a safe place, Edom, Moab and Ammon, from the beast. This is where Petra is located and it may be some of these that also flee back to Jerusalem before the Lord splits the Mount of Olives in two. So there are other possibilities.

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Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Concerning the defense of pretribulationism, there is no defense for the indefensible.

 

The End of the Age Diagram March 2018 jpeg.jpg

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

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