Montana Marv Posted June 9, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2018 The he/ restrainer of 2 Thes is listed in 1 Thes chp 1 They knew who he was and he is not Michael. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Conley Posted June 9, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 401 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/19/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2018 Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, All the evidence points to Michael being the restrainer of 2Thes 2. All the assertions out there cannot compare to real evidence. Hallelujah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted June 9, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2018 21 minutes ago, Steve Conley said: Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, All the evidence points to Michael being the restrainer of 2Thes 2. All the assertions out there cannot compare to real evidence. Hallelujah Not once is Michael mentioned in First Thes. It is either God the Father, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit who are mentioned in First Thes. God the Father is in Heaven, Jesus Christ is seated at His right hand. The Holy Spirit Indwells Believers, and thus He is the restrainer. Dan 12:1 - At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people (Daniels People) will arise...... 2 Thes 2:7c - till he is taken out of the way. The Holy Spirit leaves, then Michael will arise. Get the drift. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Conley Posted June 9, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 401 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/19/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) On 6/9/2018 at 3:39 PM, Montana Marv said: Not once is Michael mentioned in First Thes. It is either God the Father, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit who are mentioned in First Thes. God the Father is in Heaven, Jesus Christ is seated at His right hand. The Holy Spirit Indwells Believers, and thus He is the restrainer. Dan 12:1 - At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people (Daniels People) will arise...... 2 Thes 2:7c - till he is taken out of the way. The Holy Spirit leaves, then Michael will arise. Get the drift. In Christ Montana Marv Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, MM, Michael's action in Dan 12:1, no matter how you choose to translate it, leads to an unprecedented time of trouble. Such trouble, Jesus called great tribulation. The results of Michael's action is unprecedented persecution of Israel and the elect. That tells me that he stands aside at God's command, because he is more than capable of defending Israel and the elect. I understand your desperate need to find evidence for an unsupportable secret rapture even to the point of replacing Michael with the Holy Spirit as the restrainer. I understand how the idea of the Holy Spirit being taken out of the way might appear to lend support to the proposition that the church is raptured prior to the great tribulation. By proposing such you are just creating more problems for your false eschatological system. The revelation of the Beast takes place when he appears in the Holy of Holies in the temple shewing himself to be God. This brazen act defiles the temple in the eyes of the Jews who had reinstituted the daily sacrifice and oblation, so that it is stopped. This revelation of the man of sin is withheld until the restrainer stands aside in the middle of the week. What you are proposing would be evidence for a mid-trib rapture, that is if the Holy Spirit were the restrainer and if he were taken away with the church. Even this erroneous interpretation doesn't help you with a pre seventieth week rapture. MM, it's best to believe what the Scriptures say, and go where they lead you, even if it is contrary to what you were taught, and what your peers profess. Hallelujah Edited June 14, 2018 by Steve Conley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted June 10, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2018 7 hours ago, Steve Conley said: Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, MM, Michaels action in Dan 12:1, no matter how you choose to translate it, leads to an unprecedented time of trouble. Such trouble, Jesus called great tribulation. The results of Michaels action is unprecedented persecution of Israel and the elect. That tells me that he stands aside at God's command, because he is more than capable of defending Israel and the elect. I understand your desperate need to find evidence for an unsupportable secret rapture even to the point of replacing Michael with the Holy Spirit as the restrainer. I understand how the idea of the Holy Spirit being taken out of the way might appear to lend support to the proposition that the church is raptured prior to the great tribulation. By proposing such you are just creating more problems for your false eschatological system. The revelation of the Beast takes place when he appears in the Holy of Holies in the temple shewing himself to be God. This brazen act defiles the temple in the eyes of the Jews who had reinstituted the daily sacrifice and oblation, so that it is stopped. This revelation of the man of sin is withheald until the restrainer stands aside in the middle of the week. What you are proposing would be evidence for a mid-trib rapture, that is if the Holy Spirit were the restrainer and if he were taken away with the chruch. Even this erronious iterpretation doesn't help you with a pre seventieth week rapture. MM, it's best to believe what the Scriptures say, and go where they lead you, even if it is contrary to what you were taught, and what your peers profess. Hallelujah Steve It is best to Believe in the Scriptures. Michael stands up for Daniels people (Israel). No mention of him protecting the Church. Not in Scripture. Just an erroneous error on some who would like it to be so. As what you believe about eschatology is somewhat false, I will give you the benefit of your doubt. The Thessalonians knew who this restrainer was, Paul states this. And it was not Michael. Michael does not protect the Bride, the Holy Spirit does, I know this is hard for you to comprehend. You don't need to play these righteous or woe is me word games with me. I will just will just give them back to you. Scripture does not say the restrainer goes midweek, it says when he leaves the A/C will make himself known. I say the A/C is made known at the onset of the 70th Week, and Satan is made known after the A/D is set up. A/C in charge during the first half of the Week, Satan in charge during the second half of the week. That's it in a nutshell. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Conley Posted June 17, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 401 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/19/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 17, 2018 Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Why do pre-tribers insist that blood-bought saints of God will fall under God's wrath, when the Scriptures say different? I don't want to hear from a single one of you crying that you don't believe or teach that. The fact is that if you believe that the seventieth week in its entirety is the period of God's wrath, then you believe that the "tribulation saints" experience God's wrath poured out upon them. God delivered Noah before His wrath fell. God delivered Lot before His wrath fell. Paul says that the church is not appointed unto God's wrath upon the day of the Lord, so, He will deliver the church before His wrath falls. But pre-tribers teach that those dearest of saints who suffer the most severe of persecutions, that they will experience God's wrath. Many even teach that the persecution of these saints, our brethren, is the wrath of God through the Beast. God does not pour out His wrath upon His own. Pretribulationism stinks to high heaven. It is a foul odor in the nostrils of God. Hallelujah 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 18, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 18, 2018 On 6/9/2018 at 1:39 PM, Montana Marv said: Not once is Michael mentioned in First Thes. It is either God the Father, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit who are mentioned in First Thes. God the Father is in Heaven, Jesus Christ is seated at His right hand. The Holy Spirit Indwells Believers, and thus He is the restrainer. Dan 12:1 - At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people (Daniels People) will arise...... 2 Thes 2:7c - till he is taken out of the way. The Holy Spirit leaves, then Michael will arise. Get the drift. In Christ Montana Marv Well. That's not right. It's not a 'who' that restrains, it's a 'what'. Paul says, "...now you know WHAT restrains..." That 'what' is two events, apostasy and the revealing of the beast. What these two events are holding back is the appearing of the Lord and the gathering of the elect. This has nothing to with Micheal nor the Holy Spirit being some kind of 'restrainer' of evil or whatnot. It's the order of the end as written. First the beast. Then the coming of the Lord and the gathering. You'll see. We'll all see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 18, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Sojourner414 said: Actually, Scripture clarifies that the Restrainer is a person: " Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. " (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, NASB, emphasis mine) The Bible makes it clear here that is it not an "event", but a person who restrains. And the only way the lawlessness of the planet can be restrained is with someone of superior power to any and all such wickedness. Since Michael had issues with the "Prince of Persia" in Daniel, he isn't going to be strong enough, while the Church has no power without the Holy Spirit (never mind the fact that the Church won't be here for the Tribulation). That leaves one candidate left who has the power, ability and sheer magnitude to restrain: The Holy Spirit. Not true due to mistranslation. Don't have time right now to present the case. Will have time this evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 18, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 18, 2018 3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said: So you are essentially saying then that every translation got it wrong? http://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm Don't know that, haven't looked all of them. I do know that some certainly did. I'll present the case when I can get to my laptop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 18, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 18, 2018 12 hours ago, Sojourner414 said: Actually, Scripture clarifies that the Restrainer is a person: " Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. " (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, NASB, emphasis mine) The Bible makes it clear here that is it not an "event", but a person who restrains. And the only way the lawlessness of the planet can be restrained is with someone of superior power to any and all such wickedness. Since Michael had issues with the "Prince of Persia" in Daniel, he isn't going to be strong enough, while the Church has no power without the Holy Spirit (never mind the fact that the Church won't be here for the Tribulation). That leaves one candidate left who has the power, ability and sheer magnitude to restrain: The Holy Spirit. Before I get to the verse in question it's important to establish that a normal reading of the above passage indicates that it's the return of Jesus and the gathering that is being delayed. "with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him....it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, " Clearly the Lords coming and the gathering only occurs after the rebellion and the revealing of the man of sin. Since this is true then what is being withheld is the coming of Jesus and the gathering, and these two events are stymied by two other events: the rebellion and the revealing of the man of sin. Put together sans parentheticals, "with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction....And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. " From the top of the passage Paul is setting the record straight about the coming of Jesus and the gathering, telling the Thessalonians they had missed it and they were not in the Day of the Lord. Then he tells them what they can look for to know when that day will come; not before the great defection and the revealing of the beast. Ergo, the coming of our Lord and our gathering to him is being withheld by these two future catastrophic events. The verse in question. only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. This verse looks like it has been not only misunderstood (by me) but mistranslated as well. Behold a new reality: KJV only he who now letteth [will let], Greek monon arti katecho heos Literal Merely just now hold fast until. KJV until he be taken out of the way. Greek heos ginomai ek mesos Literal Greek until to emerge from out of in the midst. ‘Ginomai’ (he be taken) Definition to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage of men appearing in public to be made, finished of miracles, to be performed, wrought to become, be made ‘Mesos’ (the way) Definition middle the midst in the midst of, amongst These are the two most important points from the verse in question and they completely change the understanding of 2 Thess 2:7. This is a profound change especially in light of the real meaning of “what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.” In context what withholds is the fulfillment of apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin, that Jesus may be revealed in His time. The context of the passage is the 2nd coming and the fear of the people they missed it. Paul explains they did not miss this and relates what must occur first. Since apostasia and the revealing must happen before Jesus returns, WHAT withholds, not WHO, are the coming events of apostasia, and the revealing of the man of sin, and what they are withholding is the 2nd coming and the gathering of the elect. The fragment, “only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way”, is mistranslated as well as taking no help from the context. 2 Thess 2:3-8 concerns the conditions that must occur before the 2nd coming and the gathering of the elect, allaying the fears of the church. The coming fulfillment of the apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin are in fact withholding the 2nd coming so then only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way, is an oddity jammed into this section of revealed truth. If we adhere to the Greek and continue in the same context as Paul this fragment should read a bit differently, e.g. “Simply endure for now until he rises in the middle.” or, “Merely holdfast for now until he appears to the world from in the midst.” Maybe, “Wait until the coming into being in the middle,” is better. Or perhaps even better might be the idea that the withholding will continue until apostasia is complete and the man of sin is revealed, becoming or coming into being; manifesting to the world from right in between, or the middle, or in the midst of. Since this entire passage is about the delaying of the coming of Jesus, and the gathering of the elect, and why there is a delay, and what causes that delay, it makes sense there should be a mention of when that delay will end and what that will look like. Only after this ‘coming into being in the midst’ “shall that Wicked be revealed,” Paul immediately says, "Then shall that wicked be revealed..." seamlessly continuing the previous thought, "Merely hold on for now until he rises on the world stage in the middle." Presumably the middle of the week. So then the event of the revealing of the beast is what is in view here. This isn't a taking away, it's an arrival. Why this fragment appears as it does in some versions I do not know. The original language and definitions refute what appears. Interesting, huh? Just like mining for gold. Kick over enough rocks and get rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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