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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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20 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

- If the Lord's wrath is only the Bowl Judgments, then why does Revelation 6 say:

" I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Revelation 6:12-17, NASB, emphasis mine)

It says "for the great day of their wrath has come", not "the great day of their wrath is coming". Keep in mind that Jesus breaks the Seals, God orders the angels to sound their trumpets, and to pour their bowls; seals to bowls, all of it is the Lord.

- If the first 14 Judgments aren't God's wrath as you claim, then what? Was God only slightly irritated?

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Error #5

You said, "If the Lord's wrath is only the Bowl Judgments, then why does Revelation 6 say:"

I don't teach that His wrath is only the bowl judgments. His wrath falls suddenly upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipping, earth-dwellers who will have been persecuting the church and Israel to the death.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

It falls on them, later the very same day as our rapture, after the seventh seal is opened and the first trumpet is blown.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The very day, that the cosmic sign appears, which Joel said comes before the day of the Lord, is the very day God's fierce wrath begins to be poured out.

The order for that day is: the mega earthquake, the cosmic sign, Christ's revelation with the holy angels in the clouds of heaven, the resurrection/change, the rapture, the sealing of the 144,000 for protection from the plagues of the day of the Lord, the raptured saints before the throne, the seventh seal opened, 1/2 hour of silence in heaven, the first trumpet blown, and the wrath begins to fall. The wrath falls over a period of time no less than 6 months and no more than ~3.5 years.

Hallelujah

Edited by Steve Conley
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Just now, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Error #5

You said, "If the Lord's wrath is only the Bowl Judgments, then why does Revelation 6 say:" I don't teach that His wrath is only the bowl judgments. His wrath falls suddenly upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipping, earth-dwellers who will have been persecuting the church and Israel to the death. It falls on them, later the very same day as our rapture, after the seventh seal is opened and the first trumpet is blown.

The very day that the cosmic sign, which Joel mentioned comes before the day of the Lord, appears, is the very day God's fierce wrath begins to be poured out.

The order for that day is, the mega earthquake, the cosmic sign, Christ's revelation with the holy angels in the clouds of heaven, the resurrection/change, the rapture, the sealing of the 144,000 for protection from the plagues of the day of the Lord, the raptured saints before the throne, the seventh seal opened, 1/2 hour of silence, the first trumpet blown, and the wrath begins to fall.

Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Sojourner414's errors continued,

Error #6

You said, "If the first 14 Judgments aren't God's wrath as you claim, then what? Was God only slightly irritated?"

I have never claimed such a thing. I have only demonstrated dozens of times that what John sees as the seals are opened is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God begins with the first trumpet judgement.

Anyone that can read should be able to see that God's vengeance has not fallen during the first five seals.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

At the opening of the fifth seal the martyred saints cry out for vengeance and are told that it will not come for a little season yet. How much plainer can it be?

The day of vengeance is the day of the Lord and Joel and Peter said that the cosmic sign witnessed by John at the opening of the sixth seal comes before (prior to) the day of the Lord. How much plainer can it be?

Hallelujah

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16 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, it is not truth.  The Bible says no such thing.   Israel is Israel and the Church is the Church.   "Israel" is used 71 times in the NT and is never applied to the Church.  It is always referring to the ethnic Israelite people.

So what would you have us do with the below?

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Do you only listen to Paul when you think he's teaching a rapture?

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Romans 12:5 "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

I take it the Jew's don't belong to this body?

We have two bodies in Christ,one for the Jew's and one for the Church,is that what you saying?

 

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6 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The promise here was the blessing which is Jesus Christ.  Not the Land, Not the People.  Those not in Christ are just who they are. Unbelievers

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

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12 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The promise here was the blessing which is Jesus Christ.  Not the Land, Not the People.  Those not in Christ are just who they are. Unbelievers

In Christ

Montana Marv

My point exactly 

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20 hours ago, Davida said:

That is called Replacement Theology & it misses the mark. 

Where's the replacement part?

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Who is Abraham's seed,and what is the promise?

Edited by n2thelight
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Guest shiloh357
10 hours ago, n2thelight said:

So what would you have us do with the below?

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

 

That's not talking about Israel.  It is talking about Gentiles not needing to become Jews to be saved.  Paul was confronting the Judaizers who were teaching the Galatian church that they had to convert to the Jewish religion in addition to faith in Jesus.   Being the seed of Abraham doesn't make you an Israelite.  Abraham was not an Israelite.   Abraham was saved as a Gentile. And Gentiles are saved the same way Abraham was.   It has nothing to do with being an Israelite.

Quote

 

Do you only listen to Paul when you think he's teaching a rapture?

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Romans 12:5 "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

 

Which, again, has nothing to do with being "Israel" is not a spiritual or theological term.   It is a reference to the Israelite people, the real flesh and blood 12 Tribes.  Nothing more.

 

Quote

 

I take it the Jew's don't belong to this body?

We have two bodies in Christ,one for the Jew's and one for the Church,is that what you saying?

 

No.  That is not what I am saying.

Even when the Bible references Jewish people who are believers  the term "Jew" or "Israel" is only referencing the ethnic Jewish people.   "Christian" and "Israel"  are not interchangeable terms.

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18 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Our citizenship is in Heaven, which is his promise to us. Israel was promised a land, which was his promise to them. Israel.

We are not Israel, nor their offspring. We were not offered a land, just a heavenly home.

In Christ

Montana Marv

The problem with that is,heaven will be here on earth.The only way to get to heaven now is,if you die.

Christ brings those who have died in Him,with Him from heaven.

The idea that the church will be in heaven,while Israel is here,can be found nowhere in scripture. 

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On 6/26/2018 at 4:34 AM, shiloh357 said:

No, it is not truth.  The Bible says no such thing.   Israel is Israel and the Church is the Church.   "Israel" is used 71 times in the NT and is never applied to the Church.  It is always referring to the ethnic Israelite people.

Greetings Shiloh 357,

Many things were accomplished at the cross.  Among the things accomplished was the middle wall of partition was broken down.  This is the wall between Jew and Gentile and now He has created one new man. 

Ephesians 2: 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

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