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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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On 6/24/2018 at 3:17 AM, Sojourner414 said:

 

What does change is that God once again deals with the Jews, and the 144,000 are representative of this. With the Church removed, the 144,000 become evangelists to the world, preaching Christ resurrected, and at their darkest hour, the remnant of Israel believes and "mourns the one they pierced", as prophecy speaks. That is when, at Armageddon, the Lord returns with all the saints and the hosts of heaven, wipes out the Antichrist's armies, and sets up His kingdom.

 

 

Hi Sojourner414....

You say that the 144,000 become evangelists to the world, preaching Christ......

Where do you get this from? Are they sealed before the Tribulation begins?

Rev 6 is the opening of the first 6 seals. The first mention in Rev about the 144,000 is in Rev 7.

In Rev 7:1, John says....AFTER these things ( this follows  Rev 6 and the opening of the 6 seals) I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree....

Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

So it is here that these 144,000 are sealed ..........................after the 6th seal and before the 7th seal.

After the 7th seal is opened, then the angels who have the 7 trumpets begin to sound. It is here that the earth, sea and trees are harmed.

Rev 8:7  The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Rev 8:8  And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Rev 8:10  And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

So if the 144,000 are not sealed until after the 6th seal and before the 7th seal, how can they be evangelists that are sealed BEFORE the beginning of the Tribulation and minister to the whole world?

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8 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Sojourner414....

You say that the 144,000 become evangelists to the world, preaching Christ......

Where do you get this from? Are they sealed before the Tribulation begins?

Rev 6 is the opening of the first 6 seals. The first mention in Rev about the 144,000 is in Rev 7.

In Rev 7:1, John says....AFTER these things ( this follows  Rev 6 and the opening of the 6 seals) I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree....

Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

So it is here that these 144,000 are sealed ..........................after the 6th seal and before the 7th seal.

After the 7th seal is opened, then the angels who have the 7 trumpets begin to sound. It is here that the earth, sea and trees are harmed.

Rev 8:7  The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Rev 8:8  And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Rev 8:10  And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

So if the 144,000 are not sealed until after the 6th seal and before the 7th seal, how can they be evangelists that are sealed BEFORE the beginning of the Tribulation and minister to the whole world?

Because the pre-tribbers say so ?

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There is a great deal of inconsistency in pretrib doctrine. Not that adherents can see it. They fully believe the doctrine no matter the evidence. 

The main problem in my mind is the unanswerable contradiction inherent in the reason for the early exit; 'we are not appointed to wrath'.

Then why are there millions of tribulation saints?

Pretrib equates the 70th week, great tribulation and wrath, and from this the contradiction of the 'we are not appointed to wrath' early exit and the millions of 'those which came from out of great tribulation' arises.

There is a simple solution where these two are not in opposition; the 70th week and great tribulation ARE NOT God's wrath.

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

There is a great deal of inconsistency in pretrib doctrine. Not that adherents can see it. They fully believe the doctrine no matter the evidence. 

The main problem in my mind is the unanswerable contradiction inherent in the reason for the early exit; 'we are not appointed to wrath'.

Then why are there millions of tribulation saints?

Pretrib equates the 70th week, great tribulation and wrath, and from this the contradiction of the 'we are not appointed to wrath' early exit and the millions of 'those which came from out of great tribulation' arises.

There is a simple solution where these two are not in opposition; the 70th week and great tribulation ARE NOT God's wrath.

Exactly, the wrath doesn't happen until the one and only 2nd coming. 

The tribulation is of satan.

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

There is a great deal of inconsistency in pretrib doctrine. Not that adherents can see it. They fully believe the doctrine no matter the evidence. 

The main problem in my mind is the unanswerable contradiction inherent in the reason for the early exit; 'we are not appointed to wrath'.

Then why are there millions of tribulation saints?

Pretrib equates the 70th week, great tribulation and wrath, and from this the contradiction of the 'we are not appointed to wrath' early exit and the millions of 'those which came from out of great tribulation' arises.

There is a simple solution where these two are not in opposition; the 70th week and great tribulation ARE NOT God's wrath.

Hi Diaste,

 

Why do you think there are millions of tribulation saints?  I would say it is much higher and even into the billions.  Revelation says they cannot be numbered.  This is such high a number that we do not even know.  Revelation does mention many numbers that can be counted so the tribulations saints are even high than these.  Some of the number that are counted in Revelation are the 144,000 from Israel and the 200,000,000 Army in Revelation 9:16 so the number of tribulation saints must be much higher since 200 million can be counted.

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Where in the Bible does it say the 144,000 are going to be preachers 

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3 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Hi Diaste,

 

Why do you think there are millions of tribulation saints?  I would say it is much higher and even into the billions.  Revelation says they cannot be numbered.  This is such high a number that we do not even know.  Revelation does mention many numbers that can be counted so the tribulations saints are even high than these.  Some of the number that are counted in Revelation are the 144,000 from Israel and the 200,000,000 Army in Revelation 9:16 so the number of tribulation saints must be much higher since 200 million can be counted.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Brother Duke, I have come to believe that those mentioned as coming out of great tribulation include all the saints, both those who take part in the first resurrection and the survivors who are changed. The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the change of the survivors takes place in an indivisible moment of time which is followed by our gathering to Christ by the angels, of which nothing is said that it is instantaneous.

The great multitude is those who take part in the first resurrection (and the small number of survivors that are changed at that moment). The resurrection takes place on the day the great tribulation ends. That means that the number will far exceed the number of true believers alive today. Billions are definitely within reason.

Hallelujah 

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21 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Where in the Bible does it say the 144,000 are going to be preachers 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

It doesn't say it anywhere. It is rather the implication of adopting an erroneous pre-trib model for the timing of the rapture. It is one of many propositions in the circular reasoning of those who are pretribulationists. It is their way of explaining where all the "tribulation saints" come from after the imaginary pre-trib rapture takes place. Many of them also teach that the greatest revival in history will take place because of the preaching of these 144,000 Israelite virgins. There is no end to what the imagination of some can come up with.

Hallelujah

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40 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

You said that "it's exact time of JESUS's coming is not in Scripture. Oh! it is, surely. 

I said the time of the Rapture is not in Scripture, not coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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21 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Well, if you remove the book of Revelation from the Bible then I guess you could float that theory.  The problem is that Revelation, in it's entirety says that the Tribulation is God delivering His wrath on an unbelieving world.  You can't take the wrath of the Lamb and just pigeonhole it.

God's wrath is this big, immovable boulder that post-trib devotees have to get rid of to make their cellophane doctrine work.

Pretend God doesn't have wrath.

Pretend that the Church replaces Israel.

Pretend God lied when He promised to preserve Israel.

Pretend that a weak God has to test believers to see if they really belong to him or not.  Like He doesn't already know.

Post-trib doctrine is a game of pretend that removes huge chunks of the Bible because they are inconvenient.

The tribulation is not God's wrath 

Who is Israel and where is Judah.

The Church didn't replace Israel, it has always been,Israel. 

Where in revelation does it say tribulation is His wrath?

Scripture tells me we will always have tribulation, so what you're telling me is that,all those who have and still are dying 4 his Word, is God's wrath,you serious? 

What part we removing? 

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