Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, n2thelight said:

If you die in Christ,you have no fear of the 2nd death,as you are his

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

This is where I think it's as I opined earlier, "until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were," This context must be the end of the age as this appears in Revelation at the 5th seal. I'm not saying that anyone who truly dies in Christ for the last 2000 years is going to be in eternal, mortal danger. We simply cannot ignore the need for the GWT judgment, nor this, "

³¹ “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. ³² All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. ³³ He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

³⁴ “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. ³⁵ For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, ³⁶ I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

³⁷ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?³⁸ When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? ³⁹ When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

⁴⁰ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

⁴¹ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ⁴² For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, ⁴³ I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

⁴⁴ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

⁴⁵ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

⁴⁶ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

There would be no need for the GWT judgment if all the souls in Christ that have passed since the ascension were already deemed righteous.

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v11 tells u that it's just not those that came out of the tribulation as per the below

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The above are those who stood their ground against satan,during the tribulation.

You must believe that you were raised just like Christ,and not at some later date,but at death of the flesh.

How does this say, 'not just those that came out of GT'? It's pretty specific that these are those from GT as only those that were in GT could have faced the mark and the image.

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Let's go to Thess

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

This is the subject,those who have died

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

Doesn't really say when that hope is realized.

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I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

While this is true I don't think the people Paul was addressing were somehow lamenting the deaths of some 50 future generations. Pretty sure he was addressing the graves that were opened and those righteous that were takenwith Jesus at his resurrection and ascension. There has to be a great group of the righteous that are allowed into the kingdom at the GWT judgment.

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. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Hmm...yes. I'll have to think about this one.

Thought about it..."

Ecc 12:7.

and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
    and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Cor 5.

⁸ We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

⁹ Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

¹⁰ For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

None of this says that all the dead have been allowed into heaven before the GWT. I would say the spirit of the dead are with God somewhere, Abraham's bosom perhaps? Not sure what or where that is to be honest. But it doesn't look as though any one but those who faced the beast, the mark and the image are raised in the first resurrection and live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. I don't think that's bad news. The righteous will always be safe whether the judgment is now or in a million years.

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Diaste

[n2thelight]

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

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v11 tells u that it's just not those that came out of the tribulation as per the below

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The above are those who stood their ground against satan,during the tribulation.

You must believe that you were raised just like Christ,and not at some later date,but at death of the flesh.

How does this say, 'not just those that came out of GT'? It's pretty specific that these are those from GT as only those that were in GT could have faced the mark and the image.

The above are those who came out of the GT

however the below is not

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

[Diaste]

2 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

The above are those who came out of the GT

however the below is not

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Sure, but the context is the end of the age, the last week, the 7 seals. How would Rev 6:9 include all that ever died in Christ without specific language?

[n2thelight]

58 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Sure, but the context is the end of the age, the last week, the 7 seals. How would Rev 6:9 include all that ever died in Christ without specific language?

Rev 6 doesn't say when they got there,the language is in the verse,they died 4 their testimony, ie,like most of the Apostles. 

The verse later on in Rev specifically says, they came out of the GT.

Per your earlier post,all will be at the GWJ.

[Montana Marv]

On 7/2/2018 at 9:20 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

The time of Rapture is not in Scripture, neither could it be because it is an invention. It is not true, it is a lie

1 Thes 4:11 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (Harpozo) (Raptured) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the Air.

What say you now.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[n2thelight]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

1 Thes 4:11 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (Harpozo) (Raptured) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the Air.

What say you now.

In Christ

Montana Marv

That's our gathering back to Christ.the 2nd coming.

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

What I know and say is that the believers in Christ JESUS will not fly in the air like birds, just like you and many others imagine they will fly. 

Keep this. The caught / rapture that will happen is the transformation from the animal body to the heavenly body (Luke 20: 35-36), then the believers will be taken from the second heavenly region, which is the exact second heaven where the believers are now (Phi.3: 7-8), which is the second Concert, the Concert of the New Testament, for the third heaven which is the Kingdom of God, that is, which is the coming world, as Jesus said. (Luke 20: 35-36)   Rev. 5:10 - 10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev. 11:v.15 - The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

The second heaven where the believers in Christ are now (heaven is not the physical space of Universe-sky) it is the second Covenant, the Covenant of the New Testament, so, the believers, after their changing from animal nature to celestial nature, they will know a new celestial environment, the third heaven, an higher heaven than the 2nd heaven, where the Apostle Paul was once caught / raptured (2Cor.12:1-4). 

1Cor.15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all BE CHANGED,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall BE CHANGED.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Phil.3:20-21
20 For our conversation is in heaven (in the 2nd heaven where we are now ); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall CHANGE our vile body (this is the rapture of the believers in Christ), that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.  Again: Rev. 5:10 - 10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev. 11:v.15 - The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
Halellujah!
 
In Christ JESUS, KING of kings and LORD of lords (see Rev. 5:v.10)
Oseas

You have said that to be caught up or Raptured was a lie.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Steve_S]

10 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

The Word of God does n0t lie. The Word is God. God is Truth.

You are lying as always, first because you have not the Spirit of God and can not understand the things of God. Your spirit is the spirit of lie and you lie when you manifest yourself trying to speak about Scriptures, the Word of Truth.  There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  Your spirit has not argument against the Word of God, for your spirit is an spirit of darkness. I know him.

Poster removed from thread for this post.

[n2thelight]

On 7/4/2018 at 9:46 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

We have entered in the beginning of the first century of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day of God's time, that is the Great Sabbath, the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Millennium of Vengeance. The world of Devil is already Judged and Condemned, and now, in this seventh and last millennium, it will be punished with strong punishments,there will be only and only punishments in this last Day, the Day of the Lord, the Lord JESUS, King of kings and LORD of lords.

Been saying the same thing for a while now,however I think that 7th day starts at the return of Christ.

[Steve_S]

3 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Every time you make the above statement, and you repeat it often, you openly lie, and you do so with full knowledge that you are doing so.  How can you justify being on a Christian forum, debating Christian doctrine and openly and knowingly lying, day after day?  How does that work?  Pre-tribulation believers do not believe that they are either privileged or entitled.  You have been told this repeatedly, in this specific thread and yet you continually claim that they do believe this.  You make this claim knowing that it is false.

Cobalt banned from thread for this statement.