Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[OldCoot]

On 7/8/2018 at 3:00 PM, Montana Marv said:

You have said that to be caught up or Raptured was a lie.

In Christ

Montana Marv

And what many who deny any idea of rapture and call it a lie is that the "forcible snatching away" of the Greek Harpazo is Raptus in the Latin which is basis of the English word Rapture.  Those that deny the concept just haven't picked up a Latin Bible, or they would realize it is there.

[Steve Conley]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Jesus Christ,

I have some worthwhile observations from my journey to eschatological truth.

Daniel’s Seventieth Week is not equal to the Day of the LORD

The use of the phrase “Tribulation Period” to refer to the seventieth week of Daniel has caused much confusion. While it is true that wars, famines, pestilence (Matt 24:6-7, Rev 6:1-6) will be on the increase after the seventieth week begins, there is no mention of any uniqueness of the conditions present upon the earth until Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7-12) and the Antichrist begins to persecute Israel (Rev 12:13) and the elect (Matt 24:21-22) both of which take place 3½  years into the seven-year period.

By calling the seventieth week “The Tribulation” it has morphed into the unparalleled period which the prophets called the “Day of the LORD.” Most pre-tribbers view the Day of the LORD as beginning when “the prince that shall come” confirms the covenant with many (Israel) initiating the last seven years of this age (Daniel 9:27). It is true that the confirmation of a covenant by the Antichrist shall begin the seventieth week, but with absolute certainty, I can say that the Day of the LORD does not begin at that time.

When does the Day of the LORD begin?

The Day of the LORD is spoken of all throughout the Scriptures, in fact, more than any other event. It is the day of God’s fierce wrath. I do not believe there is any debate at all concerning this fact, because it is spoken of so often. It truly is the day of God’s wrath. All the debate centres around when it begins and how long it lasts.

For me, the timing of the Day of the LORD was the most important thing to grasp in determining the position of the rapture in relation to the events of the seventieth week. You see like many other pre-trib teachers I had concluded, without all due scholarship mind you, that the Day of the LORD began when the seventieth week began. This was accomplished with some circular reasoning that went like this:

The Day of the Lord is a day of God’s wrath. In a future time, God’s wrath will be poured out upon the Earth. As Jesus opens the seals in Revelation 6, John sees war, famine, pestilence, and death. Since the death appears to come to one-quarter of the earth; this must be God’s wrath. So, the Day of the LORD must start at the beginning of the seven years because that's when the seals begin to be opened by Jesus Himself.

That all seems logical and straightforward especially when one is trying to read the pre-trib position into the text. The bad thing is that the Scriptures plainly tell us when the day of the LORD begins and no amount of deduction, whether circular or not, is necessary.

The Day of the LORD is preceded by the sun, moon, and stars going dark

Joel tells us of a unique celestial or cosmic event that serves to indicate that the Day of the LORD is impending, meaning its arrival is at hand.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

The eschatological Day of the LORD is associated with the sun, moon, and stars going dark. Peter even quotes Joel:

Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

These celestial signs are prominent in many of the passages detailing this future day.

Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Notice how Jesus uses these celestial markers to signal His return to gather his elect and make war upon the unbelieving world.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

John also sees and describes this sign after the opening of the sixth seal.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Notice that Jesus said the sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark comes “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matt 24:29). The tribulation in context are those of the “great tribulation” (Matt 24:21).

Let Jesus be praised.

 

[OldCoot]

It really doesn't have to be complicated.  It is understanding what the great tribulation / time of Jacob's trouble is all about and who is the main focus of that events of that period.  When one gets a grip on that, then a pre-trib idea is not that far fetched.   The alternative positions risk bordering on some sort of idea like a "protestant purgatory".   

[OldCoot]

I have had to look at things a little differently.  Still working thru the implications of something I stumbled upon. 

The removal of the righteous believers does still occur prior to the seals being opened, but I have been persuaded that the first 5 seals are a period of time between that removal and the actual start of the tribulation period. Where this really seems to come out is equating the "death and hades" of the 4th seal with Isaiah 28, where the leadership of Israel makes a covenant with death and sheol (hades).  

Read again carefully Revelation 6:8.  The way it was presented is that it is not 1/4 of the earth that dies in relation to that seal, but that death and hades have control over 1/4 of the earth, and then to kill, primarily the martyrs shown in the 5th seal (those that came to faith as a result of the removal of the righteous previously).  In Isaiah 28:14-15, the leadership of Israel is making a pact with death and sheol (hades) to avoid the scourge of death that will be going on.  But that pact will be annulled (Isaiah 28:18) and they will eventually come under the same fate.  Probably the death of the two witnesses of Revelation is what triggers the anullment of the covenant.  This aligns with Danial 9:27.  

Notice also, how the martyrs in the 5th seal wonder how much longer till their blood is avenged.  If the tribulation period had already started, that question would make no sense since they would know the length of time of that period.  But it seems these martyrs do not know, so the period may not have started when these folks were killed.

When one looks at Isaiah 28 in the context of Revelation 6:8, it would seem that death and hades are specific entities and not some spiritualized concept.  According to the one who I recently heard discuss these things as I have laid it out, Bill Salus, he feels that death and hades represents the false prophet and the world religious system.  That might be a stretch, but the general concept regarding Isaiah 28 and Revelation 6:8 seems pretty solid.

Edited September 27, 2018 by OldCoot
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[OldCoot]

 

On 8/8/2018 at 7:14 PM, Steve Conley said:

Notice how Jesus uses these celestial markers to signal His return to gather his elect and make war upon the unbelieving world.

And where does He take those elect when He gathers them?  But then also, it begs the question, which elect are we talking about being gathered?   Isaiah says that Jacob (Israel) is God's elect.  Also, Paul in Romans says that the believers are God's elect, and Paul does in no place state that Jacob (Israel) is no longer God's elect, but insists that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.  

Isaiah 45:4  For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Romans 8:33-34 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Romans 11:26-29  And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The elect are gathered from the 4 winds of the earth in Matthew 24 by angels, but that is not how Paul describes the believers being caught up to be with the Lord.   Paul says that we will be changed and caught up. He does not state that the believers are gathered by angels.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

And Isaiah seems to mirror that....

Isaiah 26:19-21  Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Psalms 27:5  For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion:
in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me;
he shall set me up upon a rock.

Jeremiah 30:7  Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

John 14:2-3 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Notice how Yeshua says "receive" as opposed to "gather".  Different words with substantially different meanings.  "Receive" matches what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians and even matches up with what Isaiah wrote.  Even in Isaiah it does not say "gathered".  It says "come".

And many scholars associated the "time of Jacob's Trouble" as being the 70th week of Daniel which, like the previous 69 weeks of Daniel, are literal weeks of years.  Thus, a 7 year period is the 70th week of Daniel.  But the scripture says the righteous are hidden in the Lord's pavilion at that time.

So one can argue somewhat the timing before the tribulation and judgement of those who dwell on the earth, but it leaves little doubt that the removal of the righteous happens before. 

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by OldCoot
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[ENOCH2010]

12 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 

And where does He take those elect when He gathers them?  

 

First stop Bozrah then to the holy land. 

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, ENOCH2010 said:

First stop Bozrah then to the holy land.

If one looks closer, where do those of Judea flee to, when the A/D is set up.  Possibly, Ammon, Moab and Edom, all east of the Jordan.  So where does some of Israel flee to, Bozrah in Edom.  No Jews in Israel, so they need to be relocated after the 2nd Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Steve Conley]

On 9/8/2018 at 1:25 AM, OldCoot said:

It really doesn't have to be complicated.  It is understanding what the great tribulation / time of Jacob's trouble is all about and who is the main focus of that events of that period.  When one gets a grip on that, then a pre-trib idea is not that far fetched.   The alternative positions risk bordering on some sort of idea like a "protestant purgatory".   

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, there is no other text that so defines the great tribulation as Matthew's account of the Olivet discourse. Christ begins to speak of it taking place after the beginning of sorrows in Matt 24:9. He continues to add detail all the way through verse 29.  Let's take a look at the first half of Chapter 24.

First, notice that this is the second longest discourse of Christ recorded in the Gospels. It takes place a few days prior to His crucifixion. Within that same period, Jesus told these same disciples (and us) "I will come again and receive you unto myself". The discourse was addressed initially to four of His disciples who were with Him on the Mount of Olives. But we know it was also intended for us the readers of Matthew's account because the Holy Spirit in verse 15 says "whoso readeth, let him understand".

The four asked Him a question with three parts. "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world (aion)?" The first refers to the timing of the destruction of the Temple which took place in 70 AD. The second and third are answered together, because Christ's coming effectively ends the present world (aion = age). They asked Jesus to tell them of the sign that would portend His return, that is His parousia, His second coming. Parousia is a somewhat technical term meaning arrival and continuing presence. It is translated as “coming” and “presence”. In verse 4 Jesus begins to answer their questions. (Only Luke records Christ's answer to the first one concerning the destruction of the Temple). Let us look at what Jesus says concerning the sign of His parousia.

Remember He is answering "what shall be the sign of thy coming". Therefore, what He has to say is in the context of that future day.

He begins by warning that there will be deceivers in that day, and false Christs.

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

He speaks of a time of war, famine, pestilences, and earthquakes that He calls the beginning of sorrows. He lets us know that these are not the end of the age. It is important to recognize that these conditions closely correspond to what John sees at the opening of the first three seals. These conditions also come before what is next. Notice the use of "then" at the beginning of verse 9.

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

He goes on to say, that next, there would be violent persecution upon the followers of Jesus Christ for His name's sake. These Christians will be hated by all nations. With these words, Jesus begins to speak of the period of time at the end of the age just before His coming that He calls great tribulation. It should be noted that the Greek word from which afflicted is translated is the word thlipsis.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Because of this persecution, many will be offended, that is they will fall away or depart from the faith. Just like those who were represented by the stony ground which gladly received the Word, but were offended when persecution came along (Matt 13:20-21), so these also will fall away.

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

At that time many false prophets shall contribute to the falling away by their deception. The result will be an increase in lawlessness causing the love of others to be diminished.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

However, He says that those who survive to the end of the persecution, even the end of the age, will be saved. That is they will be physically delivered (Dan 12:1) this deliverance comes at the rapture

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Then He says, the gospel shall be preached throughout the world before the end comes. It is interesting that the Great commission which was given to the founding members of the church and continues to be the responsibility of the church today, closes with these words "...lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Jesus said He would be with us in the making of disciples and in the teaching of those disciples, all things whatsoever He taught. He said he would be with us unto the end of the world (aeon). The disciples understood that His coming would inaugurate a new (aeon), the present aeon would end at that point. We continue in Gospel ministry until the second coming of Christ.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jesus now gives further details concerning the persecution He began to speak of in verse 9. We know this by the use of "therefore" in verse 15. He says the unprecedented persecution begins when the (rebuilt) temple is defiled (that is the abomination of desolation). Christ reverenced Daniel who says the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27). The abomination of desolation is caused by the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) in the temple (2Thes 2:3-4). He says to the inhabitants of Judaea that when they see that happen, to flee. Many if not most of the prophetic statements of the Scriptures are focused upon or around Jerusalem in Judaea, so we would expect Christ's warnings to find their focal point there. However, even though it is centered in Jerusalem, Rev 13 makes it clear that this persecution will be world-wide. Christ emphasizes that there should be no hesitation once the Beast is revealed, flee immediately, don't go back for your stuff.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Jesus further describes the severity and scope of this persecution saying that it is unprecedented. The word tribulation is translated from the same Greek word that is translated “afflicted” found in verse 9.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

He says that it is so violent that it will threaten to extinguish every believer form off the earth. To save some of the elect (believers) alive upon the earth He says those days are cut short. We should note that this is the first use of the word elect in the account. We see that it is the elect who are being killed in the unparalleled persecution. Remember, from verse 9, those that are being persecuted unto death are persecuted for the name of Christ. These elect are not unbelieving Israel, they are us, the saints of God, the church.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Again, Jesus warns of false Christs, and the lying wonders that they will use to deceive those who profess Christ. He says the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the true believer (the very elect) would be deceived. This is the second use of elect in the text. Here Jesus implies that the true elect cannot be deceived by the signs and wonders done by the false prophet. However, unbelieving Israel is still in blindness because the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in. Rev 7:9-17 describes an innumerable multitude of primarily gentiles that came out of great tribulation. These are said to be saved just as we are, in the blood of the Lamb. If God is still calling out a people for His name from among the Gentiles during the great tribulation than Israel still remains forensically blinded (Rom 11:25). Therefore, the elect, who cannot be deceived, must be the Church.

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The age-old adage is, “to be forewarned is to be forearmed”. With these warnings, Christ has armed us against deception, specifically that deception related to His arrival at His parousia. He says that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, as unmistakable as the smell of the dead to carrion-eating birds, and as unmistakable as the lightning which stretches across the sky.

Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Jesus then tells us what event signals that the unprecedented persecution is over. It is an identifiable cosmic sign, the very sign that Joel and other prophets said would precede the day of the Lord. Following the cosmic sign, the whole world will see the wonder of Christ in heaven as He comes with His holy angels. They will mourn in fear, having been caught unawares, like a thief in the night catches the unsuspecting home dweller. He will then send His angels to gather His elect, the persecuted, to Him in the clouds.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Steve Conley

[OldCoot]

All well and good except there are two elect groups.  Believers and the Hebrews.  The confusion comes when people equate the word "elect" with "saved".  

The focus of Matthew 24 is not the world, or believers, but “those in Judea” per Matthew 24:26. And the “elect” are the Hebrew people. It is believer arrogance that equates “elect” with only “saved”.

Also further along, the “elect” are the remaining Hebrews.  We can know that because in Isaiah, YHVH calls the Hebrews His elect, Paul says that the gifts and calling on them are irrevocable, and Matthew 25 (sheep and goat judgement) is a exposition by Yeshua on Joel 3 regarding the nations being judged on how they treated the Hebrew people.  Yeshua is telling them this on the Mt of Olives that overlooks the Valley of Jehoshaphat that Joel 3 is talking about.

The entire chapter is directed at Hebrews.   For instance, in the parable of the virgins, they are not the church, the bride is.  The wedding feast/reception is going on.  That happens even today AFTER the groom and bride are married (not during or prior to the wedding), and in Yeshua’s time, 7 days after the wedding and the period of time in the Chupah (wedding chamber) of only the groom and bride.  A good study of the Jewish wedding, especially in the days of Yeshua, clears a lot of this stuff up.   The actual marriage and consumption of the marriage is a private deal.  The groom comes unannounced and gets his bride.  He then takes her back to his Father's house where he has prepared a place for them.  They spend 7 days in the Chupah, or wedding chamber, consummating the marriage.  Then they both come forth and then the wedding feast, along with guests, starts.  Simple illustration of Yeshua and His Bride, the Church.  You can find this sort of stuff in many works of 1st century Jewish tradition.  You know... the time that Yeshua was expressing these things.

Some abusive bible teachers have tried to use that parable to beat believers over the head and put them on a guilt trip.  Shameful.

And (Matthew 24:14) who is it that preaches the Gospel to all the world?  According to Revelation 14:6 says it is an angel that accomplishes that.  Not the Church (removed prior) nor the 144K Hebrews, nor the Two Witnesses.  

Many erroneously put believers/Church in the middle of chapters 24-25 when they are not the focus of the dissertation.

Edited October 9, 2018 by OldCoot
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[Steve Conley]

12 hours ago, OldCoot said:

All well and good except there are two elect groups.  Believers and the Hebrews.  The confusion comes when people equate the word "elect" with "saved".  

The focus of Matthew 24 is not the world, or believers, but “those in Judea” per Matthew 24:26. And the “elect” are the Hebrew people. It is believer arrogance that equates “elect” with only “saved”.

Also further along, the “elect” are the remaining Hebrews.  We can know that because in Isaiah, YHVH calls the Hebrews His elect, Paul says that the gifts and calling on them are irrevocable, and Matthew 25 (sheep and goat judgement) is a exposition by Yeshua on Joel 3 regarding the nations being judged on how they treated the Hebrew people.  Yeshua is telling them this on the Mt of Olives that overlooks the Valley of Jehoshaphat that Joel 3 is talking about.

The entire chapter is directed at Hebrews.   For instance, in the parable of the virgins, they are not the church, the bride is.  The wedding feast/reception is going on.  That happens even today AFTER the groom and bride are married (not during or prior to the wedding), and in Yeshua’s time, 7 days after the wedding and the period of time in the Chupah (wedding chamber) of only the groom and bride.  A good study of the Jewish wedding, especially in the days of Yeshua, clears a lot of this stuff up.   The actual marriage and consumption of the marriage is a private deal.  The groom comes unannounced and gets his bride.  He then takes her back to his Father's house where he has prepared a place for them.  They spend 7 days in the Chupah, or wedding chamber, consummating the marriage.  Then they both come forth and then the wedding feast, along with guests, starts.  Simple illustration of Yeshua and His Bride, the Church.  You can find this sort of stuff in many works of 1st century Jewish tradition.  You know... the time that Yeshua was expressing these things.

Some abusive bible teachers have tried to use that parable to beat believers over the head and put them on a guilt trip.  Shameful.

And (Matthew 24:14) who is it that preaches the Gospel to all the world?  According to Revelation 14:6 says it is an angel that accomplishes that.  Not the Church (removed prior) nor the 144K Hebrews, nor the Two Witnesses.  

Many erroneously put believers/Church in the middle of chapters 24-25 when they are not the focus of the dissertation.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, you, like so many other pre-tribbers, regurgitate the same old tired misconception, trying to convince yourselves and others that the clear and obvious subject of Christ's warnings must be set aside. Christ's warnings are for His followers. They/we are His elect, His chosen. The elect that He spoke of are the same elect that includes Peter, James, John, and Andrew. It was they who asked Christ for the sign of His parousia. Peter. James, John, and Andrew were among the Apostles and Prophets who were said to be the Church's foundation, with Christ Jesus being the Chief Cornerstone. The elect in this context is the church. Jesus was speaking to the founding members of His church.

It is the church that Paul addresses speaking of the very same happenings taking place before Christ's coming. Paul said that before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, would come the revelation of the man of sin (that is the trigger of the very abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke of) and the falling away (that is the departure from the faith of "professors" that Jesus said would be offended by the persecution for Christ's name sake and be deceived by the false Christs and false prophets)(2Thes 2:3-4). Paul also said that the elect (church) would be caught up at the "parousia" of Christ (1Thes 4:15-17). It is the "parousia" of Christ that the disciples wanted to know the sign of (Matt 24:3, 27, 37, 39).

The same week, it was to them (the 11), that it was said, "if I go away I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there ye may be also". You don't hesitate to claim that promise, but you say the warnings Jesus gave to the very same disciples the very same week belong to a bunch of unbelieving Jews. How inconsistent.

The disciples asked for the sign of the end of the age (aion) (Matt 24:3). Jesus told them that the gospel of the Kingdom would be preached in all the world before the end comes. Then, not even two months later, Jesus having risen from the dead, told them that He would be with them in the making of disciples and in the teaching of all His commandments until the end of the age (aion) (Matt 28:19-20). Jesus also, before, said that the harvest of the Children of the Kingdom will be reaped by the angels at the end of the age. At that time the angels will also remove from Christ's kingdom all the sinners that offend.

OC, concerning your statement that it is believer arrogance to equate the elect with the saved, I say it is your foolish arrogance to say that the elect is anything other than the believer. Paul specifically said:

Rom 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

He said that there was a remnant of believers among the Israelites, even though most remain in unbelief.

Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Notice that he distinguishes between Israel and the remnant of believing Israelites whom he identifies as the election. It is the election who has Christ and all that is found in Him.

Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God made a promise to the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) and that promise shall be completely fulfilled in Christ. The beneficiaries of that promise shall be believing Israelites and believing Gentiles. God keeps all His promises, but it was to the true seed of Abraham that they shall come.

Rom 4:11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom 4:13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

All Gentiles who believe have been graffed in among believing Israel into the promises made to the Fathers. Even as all the unbelieving Israelites have been broken off from the promises made to the Fathers (Rom 11:11-24).

Just as Christ's words in Matt 24 were for the elect of Israel who followed Him, so also are they for us Gentiles who have believed upon Christ unto salvation and been made partakers of their promises. He has made of twain (Believing Jew and believing Gentile) one new man in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:11-3:12).

They were first called Christians at Antioch.

Glory be to Jesus Christ