Montana Marv Posted October 25, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Steve Conley said: MM, what have you been smoking Only your second hand smoke. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted October 25, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Steve Conley said: You said that Peter, James, John, and Andrew were not believers, but only followers, whatever that means. They did not truly believe until after Christ was Crucified and Him rising from the dead. In Christ Montana Marv Edited October 25, 2018 by Montana Marv add clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted October 30, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) On 10/17/2018 at 11:35 PM, n2thelight said: Not true,they are grafted in,and become Israel in Christ.But my the point still remains if from your point of view,if the Church if the bride,and God has promised to re-marry Israel,does He have two wives ? That statement seems to imply you do not believe in the triune nature of YHVH. While the Father has His throne in Heaven as espoused throughout scripture, the Son will rule from a throne in Jerusalem in the authority of King David as per Psalms 2 and the angel Gabriel when he appeared to Miriam. Yeshua does not reign from the Father's throne. Right now, He sits at the Father's right hand. So while both the Father and the Son are the one true God, they are distinct entities, each with differing positions and to this discussion, two different relationship groups. The Father was married to Israel and that union will be renewed. The Son has the redeemed from the time of Shavuot (Pentecost) 32AD until that group is caught up to be with Him prior to the GT as His bride. The only reason many get all confused about this is that they have a tough time dealing with the vast dimensionality of YHVH. We live in 4 dimensions.... length, height, width, and time. Yet we know that there are at least 10 dimensions to the known universe. That would mean that YHVH is several dimensions beyond that at least. The story of Avraham, Yitzhak, and the servant who goes to secure a bride for Isaac is a magnificent picture of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in all of this (Genesis 24). Was Avaraham married to Yitzhak's bride Rivkah? Of course not! Avraham was married to Sarah. Was Yitzhak married to his mother Sarah? Absurd! So then, will Yeshua be married to Israel from which He came into this world? Of course not! Yeshua does not marry His mother, Israel, who is the woman of Revelation 12 which refers back to Genesis 37. Israel is the wife of the Father. Those that are the redeemed (Jew and Gentile) are the bride of Messiah. Is it clear now? It is assumed by the NT writers that one has a familiarity with the OT also. Many of these difficulties are cleared up if one spends their time more in the OT. Yeshua said the Torah and the Prophets were all about Him. Edited October 30, 2018 by OldCoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted October 30, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted October 30, 2018 On 10/24/2018 at 8:30 PM, Montana Marv said: They did not truly believe until after Christ was Crucified and Him rising from the dead. In Christ Montana Marv Agreed. Remember the story of the two who walked along to Emmaus discussing these things in Luke 24? They were not even firmly in the believing camp until Yeshua appeared to them and gave them an OT Bible study to show that the things that happened were predicted in scripture. Then their eyes were opened and they realized fully who Yeshua was, that He was indeed the promised Messiah. The other disciples also had the same reservations until Yeshua appeared to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted October 30, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2018 2 hours ago, OldCoot said: That statement seems to imply you do not believe in the triune nature of YHVH. While the Father has His throne in Heaven as espoused throughout scripture, the Son will rule from a throne in Jerusalem in the authority of King David as per Psalms 2 and the angel Gabriel when he appeared to Miriam. Yeshua does not reign from the Father's throne. Right now, He sits at the Father's right hand. So while both the Father and the Son are the one true God, they are distinct entities, each with differing positions and to this discussion, two different relationship groups. The Father was married to Israel and that union will be renewed. The Son has the redeemed from the time of Shavuot (Pentecost) 32AD until that group is caught up to be with Him prior to the GT as His bride. The only reason many get all confused about this is that they have a tough time dealing with the vast dimensionality of YHVH. We live in 4 dimensions.... length, height, width, and time. Yet we know that there are at least 10 dimensions to the known universe. That would mean that YHVH is several dimensions beyond that at least. The story of Avraham, Yitzhak, and the servant who goes to secure a bride for Isaac is a magnificent picture of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in all of this (Genesis 24). Was Avaraham married to Yitzhak's bride Rivkah? Of course not! Avraham was married to Sarah. Was Yitzhak married to his mother Sarah? Absurd! So then, will Yeshua be married to Israel from which He came into this world? Of course not! Yeshua does not marry His mother, Israel, who is the woman of Revelation 12 which refers back to Genesis 37. Israel is the wife of the Father. Those that are the redeemed (Jew and Gentile) are the bride of Messiah. Is it clear now? It is assumed by the NT writers that one has a familiarity with the OT also. Many of these difficulties are cleared up if one spends their time more in the OT. Yeshua said the Torah and the Prophets were all about Him. So what shall we do with the verse that says,I and the Father are one. I do agree that many take the Old Testament for granted,yet we no the volume of the Book was written of Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted October 30, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, n2thelight said: So what shall we do with the verse that says,I and the Father are one. Look at it from another angle... what do we do with those verses where the Lord is called Elohim? That is a plural (3 or more in Hebrew) noun yet is always used with singular verb. A grammatical mistake. And it starts right out in Genesis 1:1. "In the beginning, God" (Elohim in Hebrew). Plurality does not negate singular unity. Yeshua and the Father, along with the Holy Spirit are indeed the One true God while being 3 distinct personages. One area where we see the 3 personages of the One God is in Psalms 2. When one reads that Psalm carefully and slowly, it is a dialogue between those three. And of course, at the baptism of Yeshua by John. The three are manifested at the same time. There is unique individuality within the one true God that we in our limited existence are hard pressed to describe. Again, we are limited in our dimensionality to understand these things and talking about a God who is several multiples of dimensionality beyond us. Only when we come face to face with Yeshua, will we then begin to grasp some of this. But boy, I sure am looking forward to it!!! Cliff Edited October 30, 2018 by OldCoot spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Conley Posted December 2, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 401 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/19/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2018 (edited) Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The topic here is "Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture". How does one defend the indefensible? You start by stating assumptions as fact. You use these assumptions to build a layered fortress through circular reasoning. This system of circular reasoning, in the minds of the errant, is used to twist even the most explicit of Biblical statements. That which is most plain and clear must mean something different than it obviously says or else the whole system, made up of what is thought to be orthodox truth, collapses. Some of these misunderstandings (I'm being charitable) which are thought to be orthodox are: 1) Imminence, Christ could come secretly at any moment to rapture His church. 2) The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord. 3) God has to rapture the church before he can deal with the Jews. 4) God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath upon the tribulation saints. 5) God's wrath begins with the opening of the first seal. 6) The 144,000 are Jewish evangelists who bring about the greatest revival in history. 7) The great tribulation is for the Jews, the church will not be present. And there are many more. These tenants of pretribulationism are all interdependent upon each other. The whole system is built upon misunderstandings and assumed inferences predicated upon those misunderstandings. If one falls, they all fall. But as we have heard concerning some corporations or organizations, "they are too big to fail." So like those, pretribulationism is propped up by denominational leaders and those teachers who would lose face were they to correct their teaching. Many of these, upon being exposed, instead of repenting, double down and go to greater lengths in the wresting of the Scriptures. They are forever finding new, so-called, references to a pre-trib rapture that they can publish in books to satisfy the itching ears of those who love to have it so. The latest of these is "the apostasia = the rapture" false teaching being promoted by House, Woods, Ice, and others. I will deal with each of these misunderstandings as I have time. The false teaching of Imminence Imminency is one of the pillars which holds up the Pre-trib model of eschatology. The so-called doctrine of imminency purports that the Bible teaches that a secret rapture could happen at any moment and that the condition has been such since the days of the Apostles. Many passages which communicate an air of expectancy are referenced in support of this teaching. However, this is just another of the false notions which support the Pre-trib rapture model. In investigation of this teaching let’s look at all the verses that are used to support the any moment return of Christ and ask of each of them the question: does this verse say that Christ could rapture His church at any moment? Let’s look at each of these supposed proofs for the doctrine of imminence. Before each passage of Scripture, I have written a short statement of what is communicated in it concerning the rapture and Christ’s coming. You will notice that not even one of these passages say that Jesus will return unexpectedly at “any moment.” Jesus says he will come again to receive His own to Himself Joh 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. All creation is waiting for the day the saints come into the fullness of their inheritance Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ 1Co 1:7-8 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. The living believer will be changed in an indivisible point of time at the last trump following the resurrection of the dead in Christ. 1Co 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The Lord is coming 1Co 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. Looking for our Saviour and our glorification Php 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. The Lord is near Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. When He appears we shall appear with Him Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. We are to wait for Jesus to rescue us from the coming wrath 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. For the believer to be in the Lord’s presence at His coming is Paul's ultimate reward 1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? Jesus is coming to take unto Himself both the dead and the living in Christ. Those alive shall be caught up together with the dead in Christ into the clouds to be forever with the Lord. 1Th 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. The believer whether living or dead is not appointed unto wrath but to be saved from it 1Th 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Paul prayed that the whole man would be blameless unto the Lord’s coming 1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s coming and our gathering to Him (the day of Christ) will not be at hand until the ap-os-tas-ee'-ah and revealing of the man of sin comes 2Th 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Paul tells Timothy to keep the commandment until Jesus appears 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Jesus will judge the living and dead at His appearing and His kingdom 2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Believers are to live right as they look for that blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ Tit 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. For many years, it has been taught that the blessed hope is the rapture/resurrection of the dead in Christ and that the glorious appearing is something altogether separate. But this is absolutely false. The rapture is an integral part of the Parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of Christ. There is only one future Parousia of Christ, His second coming. Jesus will save or rescue those who look for Him when He appears the second time Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Be patient waiting for the Lord’s coming, it is getting nearer Jas 5:7-9 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. Be rewarded at the revelation of Jesus by passing the test when your faith is tried 1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Peter says that the trial of our faith will be rewarded at Christ's appearing. The Greek word translated appearing in this passage is the same one from which we get the title of the book of Revelation in Rev. 1:1. It is the word (ap-ok-al'-oop-sis) which is a disclosure, revealing, or manifestation of something or someone. In this text, it is the revelation or appearing of Jesus Himself. The word is used to describe this event seven times in the New Testament. Paul speaks of this event using the same Greek word. It is here translated “revealed”. 2Th 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Notice that His revelation is when the saints will be able to rest from the tribulation they are experiencing. His revelation is when He comes in vengeance with the mighty angels. It is when He will be glorified in His saints (That is when the principalities and powers in heavenly places see the wisdom of God in the redemption of mankind [“his saints”] and the Eternal God is glorified [Eph. 3:10]. The redemption that brings God glory is complete at the first resurrection/rapture when the saints receive their immortal bodies [Luke 21:28, Rom. 8:23, Php. 3:21, 1 Cor. 15:51-52]). It really isn’t hard to see, that, again and again, the Scriptures tell us that the rapture/resurrection and the revelation/second coming are part of the singular return of Christ (parousia) and they happen at the same time. Be completely confident that at His revelation Jesus Christ will come with favour toward you 1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; Peter says that it is at Christ’s revelation that we are to with confidence expect his favour, implying that we meet Him then. This is the revelation (ap-ok-al'-oop-sis) of Rev 1:7, 2Thes 1:7 and Matt 24:30. Have confidence and not shame before Christ at His coming and appearance by continuing in Him 1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. John here clearly says that it is at His coming (parousia) that we, the church, stand before him. We will be like Christ when He appears 1Jn 3:1-2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Guard your love for God as you confidently await His mercy unto eternal life Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jesus tells the faithful in Thyatira to maintain their faithfulness till He comes Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. Because of their faithfulness, those of the church in Philadelphia will not experience the time of trial that will come upon the earth dwellers Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. The texts that we have just looked at are the 26 prominent passages used to teach imminence, the any moment return of Jesus Christ to rapture His church. However, as it has been demonstrated, not a single one of them says that Jesus will appear at any moment to rapture away His church. In them we are told that He will at some future time gather His own unto Himself. We are also told that we should patiently wait for His return. But not a single one says to expect Him at any moment. Imminency is a false doctrine After honest investigation, it is clear that imminency is a false doctrine. In fact, the teaching of an “any moment” return of Christ is a subtle twisting of the true Bible doctrine of watchful expectancy for Christ’s return. Imminency as it is taught today by pre-tribbers, was developed and has become entrenched as an essential support for the pre-trib rapture model. As such it has found a place in the doctrinal statements of evangelical churches right alongside of the Deity of Christ and Christ's future literal, physical, premillennial coming. For roughly the past hundred and fifty years, many believers without any critical scriptural investigation have believed in the “any moment” return of Christ for His church. One single passage of Scripture is all it takes to expose this as a false teaching. Peter didn't preach imminency Jesus says to Peter in the forty days after His resurrection: Joh 21:18-19 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. Jesus told Peter how he would die, saying that he would be an old man. That being true, it is certain that Peter could never have believed or taught that Jesus could come at any moment and rapture him away. Jesus spoke of Peter’s death, how he should glorify God. Peter would die as a martyr in his old age, he would not be among the living saints to be raptured. Extra-Biblical history tells us that both Peter and Paul died as martyrs in June of 67 AD. That passage alone should strike the death nail to the false doctrine of imminency. Yet there are many more scriptural observations which make it clear that the any moment rapture is unsupported by the Holy Scriptures. Paul didn't preach imminency It is also true that Paul didn’t believe or teach the any moment rapture either. At the time of Paul’s conversion, it was promised that he would bear Christ’s name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel and that he would suffer great things for Christ’s sake. Act 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. God also spoke through Agabus concerning Paul’s future. Act 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. Later the Lord told Paul that he would witness in Rome also. Act 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. Paul, when writing to Timothy, spoke of his soon departure from this life (his death as a martyr). 2Ti 4:6-8 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. All this being true, there is no way that Paul taught an “any moment” rapture. In fact, he taught exactly what Jesus did (Matt 24:9-10, many shall be offended), which is that there must first be a falling away (a notable departure from the faith) and that the antichrist would be revealed before the coming (parousia) and our gathering together unto Christ. 2Th 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Expectancy is not imminency The Bible teaches watchful expectance not an any moment rapture. Glory be to Jesus Christ Edited December 2, 2018 by Steve Conley 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemke Posted December 2, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,028 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 451 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/24/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2018 (edited) It's called systematic theology. Perceiving scripture with a Hellenistic mindset. I talked with a woman who had been saved a little over a year. She had some form of a degree in literature so she took on reading the scriptures with gusto. After reading them several times she started to follow patterns and like phrases, referencing like thoughts and signs. She was confused about prophecy because of what others were saying about it and couldn't comprehend how what they were saying fit the scriptures. Her understanding of second coming language was a blessing. She was doing well and was perceiving the scriptures from more of a Hebraic mindset. Not because some teacher was training her with a new theology but because she was praying and reading. Supernaturally natural. It just made sense to her. She had been thinking she was way off and struggled to comprehend how others were understanding what they were saying as though she was missing a huge piece of understanding. But she wasn't missing what they were trying to say she just wasn't influenced by a western hermeneutic approach just yet. It made me a bit jealous, it was so pure. What systematic theologies do is train us to view the scriptures in a systematic way. Dispensationalism has truth to it but to approach the Bible with only dispensational thought gets us only so far. It's good to understand what is for Israel, what is for the church, especially the prophets, but that practice in dispensationalism goes too far to the exclusion of passages being for both like how they view Matthew 24 as being exclusive for the Jews in the tribulation period, believing it's not for the church. They just can't get around that. It's blinded them and that's what is wrong with western systematic theologies, in part, as just a very basic example. We live at a time when more Jews are being saved and these things of the end are becoming understood further. Even Clarence Larkin said the pre-trib rapture is not clearly stated in the text but he and men like him just can't place it anywhere else because of their theological belief. Today dispensationalists, with no further understanding or clarity than those before them, state it's clear and some of the more staunch radical dispensationalists believe a person to be in heresy if they can't see it. Clarence would have never and didn't take that position. Edited December 2, 2018 by Zemke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted December 2, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,182 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,482 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted December 2, 2018 God is always doing things according to HIS PURPOSES. Thus for people to understand when the `catching away` is, will need to understand the purpose of the Body of Christ and its eternal inheritance. Also God does clearly say WHEN the `catching away` is. Marilyn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted December 4, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2018 On 12/1/2018 at 9:19 PM, Marilyn C said: God is always doing things according to HIS PURPOSES. Thus for people to understand when the `catching away` is, will need to understand the purpose of the Body of Christ and its eternal inheritance. Also God does clearly say WHEN the `catching away` is. Marilyn. So how can it be imminent ? His purpose is His Word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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