Jump to content
IGNORED

Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  34
  • Topic Count:  1,989
  • Topics Per Day:  0.49
  • Content Count:  48,687
  • Content Per Day:  11.89
  • Reputation:   30,342
  • Days Won:  226
  • Joined:  01/11/2013
  • Status:  Offline

Well, many many moons ago I think I responded to this post. I just can't find it.

If you read the Bible literally you can't miss it. There definitely is a pretribulation rapture. 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  494
  • Content Per Day:  0.17
  • Reputation:   208
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  05/15/2016
  • Status:  Offline

On 4/21/2019 at 12:50 AM, missmuffet said:

Well, many many moons ago I think I responded to this post. I just can't find it.

If you read the Bible literally you can't miss it. There definitely is a pretribulation rapture. 

Could you literally give the text that specifically definitely says anything about a pre tribulation rapture.  I have read and listened to the Bible many time and must have missed it all those times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  34
  • Topic Count:  1,989
  • Topics Per Day:  0.49
  • Content Count:  48,687
  • Content Per Day:  11.89
  • Reputation:   30,342
  • Days Won:  226
  • Joined:  01/11/2013
  • Status:  Offline

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Could you literally give the text that specifically definitely says anything about a pre tribulation rapture.  I have read and listened to the Bible many time and must have missed it all those times.

I have given scripture so many times on Worthy that supports the pre tribulation rapture. You will find it several places on this message board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

On 4/9/2019 at 8:37 PM, HAZARD said:

Notice the specific list of those who are raised at this point.  To qualify for this resurrection you have to have been beheaded for the witness of Christ and the word of God,  Those who had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received the mark of the beast.  These are raised.  No one else is raised at this point.  If you wish to add to the list there is some warning about adding stuff if you recall.  The rest of the dead will include those who have fallen asleep in Christ.  That is the second resurrection.

Agreed.

I would only add that Paul said the dead in Christ from his time will be raised before those who are alive and remain. Rev 20 doesn't limit who is resurrected. "And I saw thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge.", it's showing that these people are there. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  11
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,364
  • Content Per Day:  0.59
  • Reputation:   277
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/03/2017
  • Status:  Offline

On 5/7/2019 at 4:43 AM, Diaste said:

Agreed.

I would only add that Paul said the dead in Christ from his time will be raised before those who are alive and remain. Rev 20 doesn't limit who is resurrected. "And I saw thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge.", it's showing that these people are there. 

Hi Diaste, 

              Sorry to say, I cannot agree with this ...or what Hazard posted to you:

Notice the specific list of those who are raised at this point.  To qualify for this resurrection you have to have been beheaded for the witness of Christ and the word of God,  Those who had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received the mark of the beast.  These are raised.  No one else is raised at this point.  If you wish to add to the list there is some warning about adding stuff if you recall.  The rest of the dead will include those who have fallen asleep in Christ.  That is the second resurrection.

             You are right about there being more than those who were beheaded at the first resurrection. This verse (Rev. 20:4) is not disconnected from other verses on the same subject. For example, Jesus taught that His followers would rule over cities. No mention of a requirement of martyrdom. Rev 5 is about people from all nations- And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 

So if the rest of us need to wait until the millennium is over how do those people get to reign with Him? Paul stated: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: and all who will live Godly shall suffer persecution. Sorry, no reigning for you folks. I don't see beheaded people here in Rev. 7 either:  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. To reign you usually sit upon a throne if its a kingdom being ruled. 

"The rest of the dead" "who have fallen asleep" (quoting from above) are resurrected at the same time. Poor Lazarus wouldn't be able to make it though, under this scenario. we have no record of him resisting the mark of the beast. So, when the judgment of sheep and goats takes place is it after the 1000 yr. reign of Christ is over?

The people like Lazurus and O.T. saints and us will be raised up together. Please see Heb. 11:40.

Edited by Uriah
capitalize
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

15 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Diaste, 

              Sorry to say, I cannot agree with this ...or what Hazard posted to you:

Notice the specific list of those who are raised at this point.  To qualify for this resurrection you have to have been beheaded for the witness of Christ and the word of God,  Those who had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received the mark of the beast.  These are raised.  No one else is raised at this point.  If you wish to add to the list there is some warning about adding stuff if you recall.  The rest of the dead will include those who have fallen asleep in Christ.  That is the second resurrection.

             You are right about there being more than those who were beheaded at the first resurrection. This verse (Rev. 20:4) is not disconnected from other verses on the same subject. For example, Jesus taught that His followers would rule over cities. No mention of a requirement of martyrdom. Rev 5 is about people from all nations- And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 

So if the rest of us need to wait until the millennium is over how do those people get to reign with Him? Paul stated: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: and all who will live Godly shall suffer persecution. Sorry, no reigning for you folks. I don't see beheaded people here in Rev. 7 either:  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. To reign you usually sit upon a throne if its a kingdom being ruled. 

"The rest of the dead" "who have fallen asleep" (quoting from above) are resurrected at the same time. Poor Lazarus wouldn't be able to make it though, under this scenario. we have no record of him resisting the mark of the beast. So, when the judgment of sheep and goats takes place is it after the 1000 yr. reign of Christ is over?

The people like Lazurus and O.T. saints and us will be raised up together. Please see Heb. 11:40.

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.53 For the perishable must be clothed  with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,"

"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

 

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete (Second Resurrection). This is the first resurrection (Verse 4) .6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

All the dead in Christ from the time Paul taught such, and the living at the time of the Return of our King, are raised from the dead or taken alive off the earth at His glorious return, the first Resurrection. The rest of the dead would include those in the grave not in Christ at the time of his return and those who die from His return till the end of the 1000 years, the second Resurrection. No additions or subtractions and in harmony with other scripture on the same subject.

 

 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  11
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,364
  • Content Per Day:  0.59
  • Reputation:   277
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/03/2017
  • Status:  Offline

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.53 For the perishable must be clothed  with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,"

"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

 

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete (Second Resurrection). This is the first resurrection (Verse 4) .6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

All the dead in Christ from the time Paul taught such, and the living at the time of the Return of our King, are raised from the dead or taken alive off the earth at His glorious return, the first Resurrection. The rest of the dead would include those in the grave not in Christ at the time of his return and those who die from His return till the end of the 1000 years, the second Resurrection. No additions or subtractions and in harmony with other scripture on the same subject.

 

 

Diaste,

The reason I wrote what I did because you started out by telling Hazard that you "Agreed" but looking back I saw your qualifications were added. So not knowing how to take it I pretty much went over things (from Hazard)that make those claims clear contradictions of other related scriptures.

Now in the portion of your post I underlined I want to add a bit more. You mention those in the grave not in Christ at the time of his return as having to wait until the 1000 yrs are over to be resurrected. But if you look at Jesus' teaching regarding the sheep and goats they are side by side being judged. If that is after 1000 yrs. it means WE are going to miss the millennium too. He says "enter " to one group while the others are condemned. He also says that there is an hour coming when ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth! Paul stated that He will judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and kingdom. So there is plenty of scriptural proof for what Daniel said about people people rising from the dust being all at once.

The rest of the dead, as you said, are those who die after He returns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

 

 

On 5/12/2019 at 6:05 AM, Uriah said:

Now in the portion of your post I underlined I want to add a bit more. You mention those in the grave not in Christ at the time of his return as having to wait until the 1000 yrs are over to be resurrected. But if you look at Jesus' teaching regarding the sheep and goats they are side by side being judged. If that is after 1000 yrs. it means WE are going to miss the millennium too. 

 

I suppose that's one way to look at it. Looking closer at the judgement:

 

31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. :This cannot be those resurrected in Christ, and those who are alive and remain as they are with the Lord in the clouds of the air immediately upon resurrection and translation per 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4

34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36 I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’ The qualification for entry into the kingdom; showing love. (Big mistake to think only "Christians" can show love. In fact "Christians" may be far less loving than people who do not make such a claim.)

37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’ This blessed group does not even know what they did to afford such a great gift. "Christians" arrogantly assume that because they identify as "Christian" they are immune from sin. This is not a group of people associated with "Christianity" but only with showing love to those in need and never saw Jesus in who they were helping, they were just helping others out of their true loving nature.

40 And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’ Amazing!  Note the absence of what "Christians" think are the qualifications to enter into eternal glory. Love for others is the best qualifier, superseding all else.

41 Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Disqualified for ignoring the needs of others, not showing love.

44 And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ "

So the ones judged righteous in this group are not those in Christ resurrected when our Lord appears, but judged righteous by their actions in the mercy and love of the Most High God at the time the 'rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.'

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  11
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,364
  • Content Per Day:  0.59
  • Reputation:   277
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/03/2017
  • Status:  Offline

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

 

I suppose that's one way to look at it. Looking closer at the judgement:

 

31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. :This cannot be those resurrected in Christ, and those who are alive and remain as they are with the Lord in the clouds of the air immediately upon resurrection and translation per 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4

34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36 I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’ The qualification for entry into the kingdom; showing love. (Big mistake to think only "Christians" can show love. In fact "Christians" may be far less loving than people who do not make such a claim.)

37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’ This blessed group does not even know what they did to afford such a great gift. "Christians" arrogantly assume that because they identify as "Christian" they are immune from sin. This is not a group of people associated with "Christianity" but only with showing love to those in need and never saw Jesus in who they were helping, they were just helping others out of their true loving nature.

40 And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’ Amazing!  Note the absence of what "Christians" think are the qualifications to enter into eternal glory. Love for others is the best qualifier, superseding all else.

41 Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Disqualified for ignoring the needs of others, not showing love.

44 And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ "

So the ones judged righteous in this group are not those in Christ resurrected when our Lord appears, but judged righteous by their actions in the mercy and love of the Most High God at the time the 'rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.'

 

 

 

Heoo  D,

 I stand by the scripture I posed above ("ALL  which are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth") and your post proves it by citing the places where TWO groups of people are standing together before the Lord! They are NOT separated by 1,000 yrs. Therefore the "rest of the dead" in Rev. 20  are those who die in the millennium and in the period shortly thereafter. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

Heoo  D,

 I stand by the scripture I posed above ("ALL  which are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth") and your post proves it by citing the places where TWO groups of people are standing together before the Lord! They are NOT separated by 1,000 yrs. Therefore the "rest of the dead" in Rev. 20  are those who die in the millennium and in the period shortly thereafter. 

Even though scripture says:

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) "

And logically only the dead in Christ are raised at the return of the Lord, meaning the dead not in Christ are not raised at that time. That leaves the rest of the dead to be raised at the second resurrection and appear here:

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

I agree that any of the dead not in Christ from the return of the Lord to the end of the millennium will appear before the great white throne, we still have to account for all the dead not in Christ, who were not raised when Jesus returned. These two groups are separated by 1000 years as we see here. The dead in Christ are reigning as well as those who came from GT dead in resisting the beast and the mark, and these are separated by 1000 years. Notice the two groups in the second paragraph of scripture above. This is more detail about the same judgement from Matt 25.

Rev 20 pretty much proves that just because all in the graves will hear His voice and come forth does not mean all will hear that voice at the same time, and scripture does not say, "all in the graves will hear His voice and come forth all at the same time." as it's obvious some of the dead are not raised till after 1000 years. How is it that everyone appears at the Judgement of Matt 25 when a large group is already alive and reigning with Jesus? And if all in the grave hear His voice all at the same time and come forth how would we account for the living raised from the dead at the return of our Lord, when only those in Christ are raised from the dead?

It looks like the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain never face the power of death at the GWT judgement. They are already deemed righteous or they would not be raised from the dead and hence rule with Jesus for one thousand years before the GWT. During the GWT the dead are judged and only those who's names were not found written in the book of life are cast into eternal torment. The language of  Rev 20:11-15 more than suggests that some names are found written in the book of life and some are not.

The resurrection of the saints occurs when Jesus returns, the resurrection of the dead occurs after the millennium. No one misses the millennium that is supposed to be there and not everyone appears at the GWT with the power of death hanging over them, if those of the 1st resurrection appear before the GWT judgement at all.

 

 

 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...