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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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17 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Two misconceptions.  I was pointing out how the 1st century Hebrew marriage closely mirror everything from the last supper to the millennial kingdom.  The removal of the righteous is only one aspect of the multi faceted marriage ritual. 

Next off, there is nothing secret about the pre-trib removal.  It will be known by everyone when it happens. The only thing "secret" is the date, and for that matter, go ahead and predict the date of the end of the world.  Can't be done.  Even Yeshua said in Matthew 24 that He didn't know the date or the hour of the end of the world and neither did the angels.  Only the Father.  So the end of the world is even more of a secret than any rapture.   At least we can know the times and season.  Calling it a "secret" rapture is just a attempt, consciously or unconsciously, to demean those who hold the position.  Another example of worldly political type methodology of confronting the opposition.  

 

You were saying that it won't be a secret. How can you conclude it won't be a secret? Where do you find the pretribulation rapture in scripture and why do you conclude it won't be a secret?

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21 minutes ago, The Light said:

You were saying that it won't be a secret. How can you conclude it won't be a secret? Where do you find the pretribulation rapture in scripture and why do you conclude it won't be a secret?

I think I elaborated on how I see others who are anti pre-trib use the term.  Yes, technically it is a mystery on the timing, but that is not how many who deride the concept use the term "secret rapture".  They use it as a derogatory term, demeaning others. I have seen the "Left Behind or Led Astray" hatchet job passed off as a scholarly work and that is how they use "secret rapture" when they mention it.... as a dig at those who hold the pre-trib view.   But if they were honest and viewing thinks in a proper fashion, they would have to admit that everything at this point is a mystery or "secret" on the timing.  But just because these things are a mystery on the timing does not negate that they will happen.

Edited by OldCoot
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2 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I think I elaborated on how I see others who are anti pre-trib use the term.  Yes, technically it is a mystery on the timing, but that is not how many who deride the concept use the term "secret rapture".  They use it as a derogatory term, demeaning others. I have seen the "Left Behind or Led Astray" hatchet job passed off as scholarly and that is how they use "secret rapture" when they mention it.... as a dig at those who hold the pre-trib view.   But if they were honest and using it in a proper fashion, they would have to admit that everything at this point is a secret on the timing.  But just because these things are a mystery on the timing does not negate that they will happen.

The world will believe that aliens have come and taken people. There will be plenty of faked video to prove the aliens have come and then there will be a need for world government, a new world order.

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On 6/30/2019 at 10:04 AM, OldCoot said:

The timing of the end of the planet is a secret also, as is the identity of the antichrist, even more so than the pre-trib view point.  So what is your point?   But when all these happen, there will be no doubt in anyone's mind.  

But that is not how many anti pre-trib folks use the term "secret rapture".  They typically use it in a derogatory manner that is designed to make those who hold the view a laughing stock. It is similar to Democrat political methodology in the U.S.   You know..... embracing the actions of those in the world instead of distancing from it.

Actually, every position at this point is a "secret" because no one is certain of the beginning day that starts the tribulation period. Just like the pre-trib, we can only see the signs of its fast approaching.  This is why it amazes me that so many get their panties in a kink over these issues and not just have fun debating them and sharing views.  it is not a condition of justification.

Greetings OldCoot,

You say the end of the world is a secret,  that would be at the end of the millennium.

The identity of the antichrist will be revealed right before the days of tribulation begin.  

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

When the man of sin is revealed then the beginning of trouble.

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8 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

You say the end of the world is a secret,  that would be at the end of the millennium.

Correct.

Matthew 24:35-36 (NKJV) Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

"that day" refers to the previous antecedent in the discourse...  heaven and earth passing away.  The only day that is specified in scripture as the day that is a total secret, only known to the Father, is when Heaven and earth pass away.  Of course, that is after the millennium.  

All the scripture you posted is supportive that the antichrist will not be revealed until other conditions happen.  So by logical extension, when those things happen, folks will know the antichrist is about to be revealed.   Thereby, it is not a total secret.  

Edited by OldCoot
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On 7/4/2019 at 11:40 AM, OldCoot said:

  heaven and earth passing away....    Of course, that is after the millennium.  

Hello Coot,

If this is the case, what do you u say about:

Rev. 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Here we see the sky (heaven) has departed, and the planet is transformed. This is at the end of the tribulation/beginning of the millennium.

forumsky.png

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29 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Hello Coot,

If this is the case, what do you u say about:

Rev. 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Here we see the sky (heaven) has departed, and the planet is transformed. This is at the end of the tribulation/beginning of the millennium.

forumsky.png

Sounds good until you compare it with Revelation 21 which is describing a new heaven and new earth.  And that is indeed after the millennial kingdom.

Revelation 6:14 that you quote, and the verses that surround it, could describe nuclear war also or even a similar occurrence to what happened to the earth during the flood of Noah, depending on the person reading the text.  Revelation 21 is pretty solid in terms of heaven and earth passing away, whereas Revelation 6 seems to be referring to cataclysmic events as opposed to a total elimination of the earth.  On the heaven departing like a scroll, watch detailed nuclear air bursts and watch the effect on the atmosphere (heaven).  

Revelation 6:14 (NKJV) Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place

Revelation 6:14 (NASB) The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 6:14 (ESV) The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Revelation 6:14 (CJB) The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Revelation 6:14 (ISV) The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Edited by OldCoot
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44 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Sounds good until you compare it with Revelation 21 which is describing a new heaven and new earth.  And that is indeed after the millennial kingdom.

Revelation 6:14 that you quote, and the verses that surround it, could describe nuclear war also or even a similar occurrence to what happened to the earth during the flood of Noah, depending on the person reading the text.  Revelation 21 is pretty solid in terms of heaven and earth passing away.

I assume this is the verse you refer to, because the rest of the chapter is about the City of New Jerusalem.

Rev 21:1- And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

However if you will look at :

Rev 20:4-15....

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The purple verses are meant to be in parentheses. There were NO punctuation in the manuscripts so it throws people off. John simply digresses-into the future- then returns to the narrative.

By neglecting this we don't have the judgment for a thousand years whereas Jesus taught otherwise in Matt. 25:31+, as well as His teaching in Luke 19:15-27 where He judges people when He returns. This also fits perfectly with 2Tim. 4:1

 

 

Edited by Uriah
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Rev. 20:11- And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 

( fled away...=sky departed, moountains and islands moved)    (for them to hide)

Rev.6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15- And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16- And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

So they actually see the throne! This is at the end of the tribulation.

Edited by Uriah
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On 7/6/2019 at 7:48 AM, Uriah said:

By neglecting this we don't have the judgment for a thousand years whereas Jesus taught otherwise in Matt. 25:31+, as well as His teaching in Luke 19:15-27 where He judges people when He returns.

Actually, the contents of Matthew 25 show a separation of those who will go into the millennial kingdom and those who will not.  The separation of the nations into sheep and goat divisions in Matthew 25 is a discourse on Joel 3.  And it has nothin to do with the redeemed of the church.  The brethren of the discourse is the Hebrew people.    Those of the nations are judged on how they treated the Hebrew people, Yeshua's brethren in the flesh.

The parable of the maidens early in Chapter 25 was a discourse on Ezekiel 20, where the Hebrews themselves are separated at the end of the tribulation period.  Yeshua does not have a myriad of brides, only one. These maidens in the parable are the bridesmaids. 

And it is those who make it thru these two different judgements who go into the kingdom who will repopulate the earth.  There will be children born in the kingdom.  There also will still be sin in the kingdom. The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 and various passages in the OT show that.  Why else would the Lord and the redeemed rule over the earth despotically with a "rod of iron"?  Why would those who do not go up to Jerusalem at the feast of Tabernacles have rain withheld from their land?

To make any matter worth considering, it requires equal support in both NT and OT. That is the standard established in scripture by the Torah and the Bereans in Acts 17.    Otherwise there is a risk of misapplying a passage.  

 

Edited by OldCoot
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