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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

Actually, the contents of Matthew 25 show a separation of those who will go into the millennial kingdom and those who will not.  The separation of the nations into sheep and goat divisions in Matthew 25 is a discourse on Joel 3.  And it has nothin to do with the redeemed of the church.  The brethren of the discourse is the Hebrew people.    Those of the nations are judged on how they treated the Hebrew people, Yeshua's brethren in the flesh.

The parable of the maidens early in Chapter 25 was a discourse on Ezekiel 20, where the Hebrews themselves are separated at the end of the tribulation period.  Yeshua does not have a myriad of brides, only one. These maidens in the parable are the bridesmaids. 

And it is those who make it thru these two different judgements who go into the kingdom who will repopulate the earth.  There will be children born in the kingdom.  There also will still be sin in the kingdom. The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 and various passages in the OT show that.  Why else would the Lord and the redeemed rule over the earth despotically with a "rod of iron"?  Why would those who do not go up to Jerusalem at the feast of Tabernacles have rain withheld from their land?

To make any matter worth considering, it requires equal support in both NT and OT. That is the standard established in scripture by the Torah and the Bereans in Acts 17.    Otherwise there is a risk of misapplying a passage.  

 

Do you not remember JESUS giving two examples from the O.T.? Noah and Lot! If you are trying to disqualify JESUS , good luck with that. He IS the N.T.!!!

Wheat and tares

Fish and net

Sheep and goats

These are all about eternal destiny, not about getting another chance in the millennium- that is J.W. rhetoric.

In each parable one group is cast into fire/ destruction.

In the sheep and goats teaching, Jesus specifically explains it saying: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Nowhere does He speak of repopulating anything. but pre tribbers cannot help but force the scriptures into their ideology rather than BELIEVE the scriptures. Believe the SCRIPTURES.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Do you not remember JESUS giving two examples from the O.T.? Noah and Lot! If you are trying to disqualify JESUS , good luck with that. He IS the N.T.!!!

Wheat and tares

Fish and net

Sheep and goats

These are all about eternal destiny, not about getting another chance in the millennium- that is J.W. rhetoric.

In each parable one group is cast into fire/ destruction.

In the sheep and goats teaching, Jesus specifically explains it saying: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Nowhere does He speak of repopulating anything. but pre tribbers cannot help but force the scriptures into their ideology rather than BELIEVE the scriptures. Believe the SCRIPTURES.

 

 

Didn't forget at all.  Noah and Lot are relevant, but not in the way you seem to be implying, and certainly not relevant to the discussion at hand.  

Regarding the sheep and goats, only those who are righteous (sheep) are allowed to enter into the kingdom physically. Sure they go to eternal life as the scripture says, just like the redeemed living today have passed from death to eternal life thru the Messiah. Do you not know that the redeemed who trust in Messiah now have passed from death to eternal life?  Don't read more into it than what is being said.  The sheep and goat judgement is simply an expanded discourse on Joel 3 regarding the judgement of the nations to determine who will go into the kingdom and who will be cast off.  Only those who are righteous by their trust in Messiah as shown by how they treated His brethren, the Hebrews, will go into the kingdom.  And being righteous, they will go to eternal life just like anyone now who trusts in Messiah is given eternal life.

But those righteous out of the tribulation that go into the kingdom will also have children just like the righteous currently who have passed form death to eternal life now have children.   And just like redeemed, eternal life possessing believers now in their physical bodies still sin, so will those who go into the kingdom in their physical bodies.   And their children will sin.  If you seriously study the kingdom parables in Matthew 13, you will find that sin eventually permeates the kingdom to a level that when Satan is released, in accordance with Revelation 20, he will be able to foment a great final rebellion against the Lord.  This is also shown in Psalms 2.  

 

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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:
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Didn't forget at all.  Noah and Lot are relevant, but not in the way you seem to be implying, and certainly not relevant to the discussion at hand.

 Well, how about the way JESUS is plainly DECLARING???--He follows it by saying, "it will be just like this when the Son of Man is revealed." I am pretty sure He knows what is relevant. AND the topic being discussed.

Quote

Regarding the sheep and goats, only those who are righteous (sheep) are allowed to enter into the kingdom physically. Sure they go to eternal life as the scripture says, just like the redeemed living today have passed from death to eternal life thru the Messiah. Do you not know that the redeemed who trust in Messiah now have passed from death to eternal life?  Don't read more into it than what is being said.  The sheep and goat judgement is simply an expanded discourse on Joel 3 regarding the judgement of the nations to determine who will go into the kingdom and who will be cast off.  Only those who are righteous by their trust in Messiah as shown by how they treated His brethren, the Hebrews, will go into the kingdom.  And being righteous, they will go to eternal life just like anyone now who trusts in Messiah is given eternal life.

Reading more into it? You mean quoting JESUS? (In His own words in the same context.) I think the shoe is on the other foot.

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But those righteous out of the tribulation that go into the kingdom will also have children just like the righteous currently who have passed form death to eternal life now have children.   And just like redeemed, eternal life possessing believers now in their physical bodies still sin, so will those who go into the kingdom in their physical bodies.   And their children will sin.  If you seriously study the kingdom parables in Matthew 13, you will find that sin eventually permeates the kingdom to a level that when Satan is released, in accordance with Revelation 20, he will be able to foment a great final rebellion against the Lord.  This is also shown in Psalms 2.  

The righteous out of the tribulation are seen here:-

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

BELIEVE the scriptures.

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6 hours ago, Uriah said:

Well, how about the way JESUS is plainly DECLARING???--He follows it by saying, "it will be just like this when the Son of Man is revealed." I am pretty sure He knows what is relevant. AND the topic being discussed.

That portion from Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the redeemed of the church.  Those taken later in that passage are the ones who are condemned, not the righteous.  Just like those who were condemned in Noah's day were taken by the flood were the condemned while Noah and his family were saved thru it.   So again, the passage is not relevant in regards to the redeemed of the church.  That time will be just like Noah's day when the condemned were taken away.  

This passage is further expanded in Matthew 25 regarding the Parable of the Maidens and the Sheep and Goat judgement.  Both of which, again, have nothing to do with the redeemed of the church.  The target audience of the Olivet discourse is the Hebrew people.  If you want a discourse directed at the redeemed of the church by Yeshua, then that is in John 13 onward.

Yes indeed, there will be righteous that come out of the Tribulation Period. But that doesn't mean they go into that period righteous.  The scripture, both OT and NT says in multiple passages that the redeemed.... before the tribulation period begins.... are kept from that time coming on the earth.   But there will be those that witness the removal, see what is coming, and place their trust in Yeshua.   But since they did not do that before the removal, they are stuck to deal with the Tribulation Period that is coming upon all the people of the earth.

Just like the unbelieving Hebrews will have to face the music also.  And it will be such as to drive them to realize the overall rejection of Yeshua by the Hebrew people and the acknowledge their mistake and petition for Yeshua to rescue them. That will be required before Yeshua will ever return and set foot on this planet.  Hosea 5-6 is quite clear about that and Yeshua affirmed that in Matthew 23:39.

Again, it comes down to a proper perspective of what the Tribulation Period is all about, what its purpose is, and who is the primary target for that purpose.  And the saints during that period are just a side bar, not the focus.  

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On 7/4/2019 at 10:33 AM, seeking the lost said:

You say the end of the world is a secret,  that would be at the end of the millennium.

Indeed!  That is the only mention of no man knowing, the angels not knowing, and the Son not knowing.  Only the Father knowing. it is a secret to Him and no one else.....

Matthew 24:35-36 (NKJV) Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

"that day and hour" refers to the antecedent in the previous verse... Heaven and Earth passing away. 

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20 hours ago, OldCoot said:
Quote

That portion from Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the redeemed of the church.

That is not true: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

And this another dodge from the passage I showed you in Luke--which provides the true intent of Jesus in His statements of Matt 24! He doesn't talk out of both sides of His mouth. Angels are plainly seen in this passage taking HIS ELECT. And it happens to be at the time of all those cataclysms and matching Rev.6 with Jesus being seen above. 

Quote

 Those taken later in that passage are the ones who are condemned, not the righteous.  Just like those who were condemned in Noah's day were taken by the flood were the condemned while Noah and his family were saved thru it.   So again, the passage is not relevant in regards to the redeemed of the church.  That time will be just like Noah's day when the condemned were taken away.  

The redeemed are His elect-the church, want see some verses that confirm this? In Noah's day, (and Lot's) God's people were delivered ON THE DAY that the judbment came down from above.

Quote

This passage is further expanded in Matthew 25 regarding the Parable of the Maidens and the Sheep and Goat judgement.  Both of which, again, have nothing to do with the redeemed of the church.  The target audience of the Olivet discourse is the Hebrew people.  If you want a discourse directed at the redeemed of the church by Yeshua, then that is in John 13 onward.

Again, with the sheep and goats there are two groups. One enters eternal life and one is sent to destruction. You can only go to these places after being raised from the dead! Your version does not agree with the scriptures. BELIEVE the scriptures.

Quote

Yes indeed, there will be righteous that come out of the Tribulation Period. But that doesn't mean they go into that period righteous.  The scripture, both OT and NT says in multiple passages that the redeemed.... before the tribulation period begins.... are kept from that time coming on the earth.   But there will be those that witness the removal, see what is coming, and place their trust in Yeshua.   But since they did not do that before the removal, they are stuck to deal with the Tribulation Period that is coming upon all the people of the earth.

So you think that God rejects believers, even when I showed you that they are before the throne in Rev. 7 and they are seen in Rev. 20 as well!? I say again, if they are not afforded ALL that the Gospel promises, it is another gospel!

Quote

Just like the unbelieving Hebrews will have to face the music also.  And it will be such as to drive them to realize the overall rejection of Yeshua by the Hebrew people and the acknowledge their mistake and petition for Yeshua to rescue them. That will be required before Yeshua will ever return and set foot on this planet.  Hosea 5-6 is quite clear about that and Yeshua affirmed that in Matthew 23:39.

Just off topic, again.

Quote

Again, it comes down to a proper perspective of what the Tribulation Period is all about, what its purpose is, and who is the primary target for that purpose.  And the saints during that period are just a side bar, not the focus.

The Lord indeed has great overarching purposes, but to say that the bride is just a side bar of the bridegroom is beyond laughable.

But this provides another fine demonstration of how putting a pet teaching to a supreme position distorts. Believe the SCRIPTURES.

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3 hours ago, Uriah said:

The redeemed are His elect-the church, want see some verses that confirm this?

Indeed, the church is made up of elect, but they are not the only elect.  Don't confuse election with justification. A group can be elect, but that doesn't mean they are individually justified.  Isaiah 45:4 is quite clear the Jacob (Israel) is Yahweh's elect and expounds on that in Chapter 65. And as Paul stated, though Israel is elect, not all of them have the faith of Abraham.... true Israel.

In Isaiah 65, the elect inherit the land.  It ties into what the disciples asked Yeshua before His ascension to the Father.... "is now the time You will restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6-7). Yeshua did not state that the question was invalid or stupid. He essentially stated that it is in the Father's hands to determine the time and they shouldn't worry about it.  And in stating that, He affirms that the kingdom will one day be restored to the Hebrew people, that elect group of Yahweh, in accordance with Isaiah.

Paul even makes a point in Romans 11:28 that Jacob (Israel) has an election.  Peter refers to the Hebrews of the diaspora as being elect, right out of the gate in 1 Peter 1.  

Keep in mind Galatians 2, where the agreement was struck that Paul would be the emissary to the Gentiles/Goyim, whereas James, Peter, and John would be the emissaries to the Hebrew people.  So while Paul calls the redeemed elect and rightly so, Peter calling the Hebrews in the diaspora elect is also right.  No conflict.  Election is a setting aside or calling out for the purpose of Yahweh.  Justification before Yahweh is a separate concept.

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

Again, with the sheep and goats there are two groups. One enters eternal life and one is sent to destruction.

There are two groups in focus by Yeshua in Matthew 25 / Joel 3:   The nations (group 1) and the brethren (group 2).   In both scripture passages, it is the nations and Jacob/Israel. 

If the brethren of Matthew 25 are the believing elect that make up the church, then why is it only the nations (goyim) are being judged and not also the Jacob (Israel) along with them?   In the world today, there is three distinct groups..... the nations/gentiles, the Hebrews/Jacob/Israel, and the redeemed that make up the body of Messiah where there is no longer a Hebrew or Gentile distinction. 

But there are only two groups in view in the passage of Matthew 25. Where is the third group?  It was removed via the rapture early on leaving only the nations and the Hebrews.     The third group we see in the world today is the redeemed who make up the Body of Messiah.  That group is not part of the passages of Matthew 25 or Joel 3.

Both the sheep and the goats come from the same group.... the nations.  It is those that are declared righteous out of that group that are the saints (sheep) that come out of the GT period and go physically into the kingdom to repopulate the earth.   They have eternal life because they are redeemed by Yeshua.  Just like the redeemed now have eternal life, yet we are still in our physical bodies at the present time.

Yeshua, in Matthew 25, is expanding on Joel 3, the nations are judged and separated in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, the very spot where Yeshua is delivering the Olivet discourse on the mount that overlooks that valley.  Those listening to Him knew exactly what He was referring to, and it was in Joel 3 where the nations are being divided over how they treated the Hebrew people... the same people who are the physical brethren of the Hebrew Messiah.... Yeshua/Jesus.  

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

But this provides another fine demonstration of how putting a pet teaching to a supreme position distorts. Believe the SCRIPTURES.

No, what I have stated provides a fine demonstration of following the guidance of scripture in how to establish a matter.  The Torah (teaching) tells us that no matter can be established without the testimony of at least two witnesses.  The Bereans in Acts 17 showed how that works.  Essentially stating that for any matter to be established, it must be equally affirmed in both OT and NT.    I have done that by showing the correlation between Mathew 25:31-46 and Joel 3:1-17. Likewise how in both the OT and NT, Jacob(Israel) is called elect just like the redeemed are called elect.   It is that some have failed to follow the guidance of scripture that they come up with alternative ideas about who is who in Matthew 25.  

Although you chose to ridicule of me in your post, I will not return the favor.  

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21 hours ago, OldCoot said:
Quote

Indeed, the church is made up of elect, but they are not the only elect.  Don't confuse election with justification. A group can be elect, but that doesn't mean they are individually justified.  Isaiah 45:4 is quite clear the Jacob (Israel) is Yahweh's elect and expounds on that in Chapter 65. And as Paul stated, though Israel is elect, not all of them have the faith of Abraham.... true Israel.

So are you saying that the angels will NOT gather Christians,

but instead Matt 24 is about a gathering of Jews to the valley of Jehoshaphat?

Col. 3:12- Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;,

Titus 1:1- Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:2- Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Quote

In Isaiah 65, the elect inherit the land.  It ties into what the disciples asked Yeshua before His ascension to the Father.... "is now the time You will restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6-7). Yeshua did not state that the question was invalid or stupid. He essentially stated that it is in the Father's hands to determine the time and they shouldn't worry about it.  And in stating that, He affirms that the kingdom will one day be restored to the Hebrew people, that elect group of Yahweh, in accordance with Isaiah.

Off topic

Quote

 

Paul even makes a point in Romans 11:28 that Jacob (Israel) has an election.  Peter refers to the Hebrews of the diaspora as being elect, right out of the gate in 1 Peter 1.  

Keep in mind Galatians 2, where the agreement was struck that Paul would be the emissary to the Gentiles/Goyim, whereas James, Peter, and John would be the emissaries to the Hebrew people.  So while Paul calls the redeemed elect and rightly so, Peter calling the Hebrews in the diaspora elect is also right.  No conflict.  Election is a setting aside or calling out for the purpose of Yahweh.  Justification before Yahweh is a separate concept.

 

Off topic

Quote

There are two groups in focus by Yeshua in Matthew 25 / Joel 3:   The nations (group 1) and the brethren (group 2).   In both scripture passages, it is the nations and Jacob/Israel. 

You have failed to address the fact that people in Matt 25 are being sent to everlasting life and everlasting destruction, as revealed by Daniel and seen in Rev. 20. They are from all nations. 

Quote

If the brethren of Matthew 25 are the believing elect that make up the church, then why is it only the nations (goyim) are being judged and not also the Jacob (Israel) along with them?   In the world today, there is three distinct groups..... the nations/gentiles, the Hebrews/Jacob/Israel, and the redeemed that make up the body of Messiah where there is no longer a Hebrew or Gentile distinction. 

Jesus said ALL nations will be gathered before the great white throne...that would include those from the nation of Israel. Believe the scriptures.

Quote

But there are only two groups in view in the passage of Matthew 25. Where is the third group?  It was removed via the rapture early on leaving only the nations and the Hebrews.     The third group we see in the world today is the redeemed who make up the Body of Messiah.  That group is not part of the passages of Matthew 25 or Joel 3

So there are the goats (unrighteous), the sheep, who Jesus calls "the righteous", is there another group, extra righteous? A different rapture/ resurrection? One can ONLY appear in this scenario if they are righteous. So the "third group IS here. They ARE the sheep. All those who have died or been raptured will be in ONE place at ONE time. There are NOT two raptures and three resurrections. But I have asked you to address this before. How do those from teh tribulation make it to their place in Rev.7 and Rev 20. If you hold true to your pattern you will change the topic again. 

Quote

Both the sheep and the goats come from the same group.... the nations.  It is those that are declared righteous out of that group that are the saints (sheep) that come out of the GT period and go physically into the kingdom to repopulate the earth.   They have eternal life because they are redeemed by Yeshua.  Just like the redeemed now have eternal life, yet we are still in our physical bodies at the present time.

Impossible! Those from the G.T. are seen in Rev 20, about to reign for 1,000 yrs. Will you deny this? Will you create an extra rapture/ resurrection?

Quote

Yeshua, in Matthew 25, is expanding on Joel 3, the nations are judged and separated in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, the very spot where Yeshua is delivering the Olivet discourse on the mount that overlooks that valley.  Those listening to Him knew exactly what He was referring to, and it was in Joel 3 where the nations are being divided over how they treated the Hebrew people... the same people who are the physical brethren of the Hebrew Messiah.... Yeshua/Jesus.

Joel 3 has no great white throne or people being cast into eternal life etc. The angels (mighty ones) are sent down to destroy the armies from the nations that are in the valley to approach Jerusalem. They are judged in battle, meaning defeated. The judgement in Matt 25 is NOT in battle, but it matches that of Rev 20-the Great White Throne.  

Quote

No, what I have stated provides a fine demonstration of following the guidance of scripture in how to establish a matter.  The Torah (teaching) tells us that no matter can be established without the testimony of at least two witnesses.  The Bereans in Acts 17 showed how that works.  Essentially stating that for any matter to be established, it must be equally affirmed in both OT and NT.    I have done that by showing the correlation between Mathew 25:31-46 and Joel 3:1-17. Likewise how in both the OT and NT, Jacob(Israel) is called elect just like the redeemed are called elect.   It is that some have failed to follow the guidance of scripture that they come up with alternative ideas about who is who in Matthew 25.  

You haven't shown a correlation, these are two different matters. You ignore the vast differences. Even angels are called "elect" so a mere word game won't work. And when JESUS shows the correlation from the O.T.(Noah and Lot), then makes a declaration of things that were NOT  shown in the O.T. because He IS the N.T.....you refuse to acknowledge Him!!!

Although you chose to ridicule of me in your post, I will not return the favor.  

There is a great deal of diversion/obfuscation here. The same pattern in avoiding what was brought up in 2 Thes. 2:8, the declaration by Jesus about Noah and Lot, and now this. You simply run from these truths and immediately point to other matters out of context. 

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I'm sure I posted this on the board before but I don't remember when. Save checking 131 pages I will post it again. here is all that is written in Scripture regarding a pre-trib rapture.

The Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

 

Daniel’s Seventieth Week and the Tribulation. Dan. 9:24-27.

The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31.

Jesus said that the angels don't know when the rapture will happen, He also said that even He does not know. So if the angels don't know then Satan also doesn't know when it will happen. Only the Father knows according to Jesus.

Mark 13:4, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

 

Jesus replied,

 

Mark 13:32, But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 

Scripture also states that Satan knows that he has but a short time.

 

Revelation 12:12,Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

Taking in the fact that we and Satan live in eternity future, Satan knew he had but a short time the day he rebelled against the Father, and the fact the Jesus defeated him by His death and resurrection. Any length of time cut from a life to be lived in eternity, no matter when this occurs will be but a short time.

Mark 13:4, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

 

5, And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

 6, For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    7, And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

    8, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

 

9, But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

  10, And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

 

All these things so far at one time or another have been happening since Jesus returned to Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us and guide us. The only thing I can see that has not yet occurred is the fact the gospel has not yet been preached among all nations.

 

There have been tribes found deep in South America, Papua New Guinea, and other parts of the Earth that have not yet even heard of God, the gospel, or Jesus.

Edited by HAZARD
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53 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Jesus said ALL nations will be gathered before the great white throne...that would include those from the nation of Israel. Believe the scriptures.

But this judgement of the sheep and goats is not the GWTJ.  That is later after the millennial kingdom period.  The S&G judgement is at the end of the GT period and the discourse in Matthew 25 regarding this is an exposition on Joel 3.  And in the case, only the gentiles are referred to as the 'nations' or goyim.  It really is just that simple if one reads the scripture. 

 

57 minutes ago, Uriah said:

So there are the goats (unrighteous), the sheep, who Jesus calls "the righteous", is there another group, extra righteous? A different rapture/ resurrection?

There is no resurrection at the S&G judgement.  The redeemed that make up the church were already taken out before the GT period kicked into gear.  The S&G judgement is to determine who is cast off and who goes into the kingdom.  No different rapture or resurrection.   If you can find where the resurrection is mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46, please let us know.  But since this discourse is on Joel 3, you would have to also provide proof from Joel of that also.

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Joel 3 has no great white throne or people being cast into eternal life etc.

By golly, you actually got something right in this discussion!   Well done!   Except where does it say in Joel 3 or Matthew 25 about people "being cast into eternal life".  But both are a judgement of how the Goyim (nations) treated the Hebrew people.  Goes allllll the way back to Genesis 12:3.  Yeshua did expand on Joel 3.  That is what is done in an expository discourse.  He did add elements that weren't stated by the HS to Joel. But Joel 3 still remains as the base text Yeshua was teaching from. 

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

.you refuse to acknowledge Him!!!

And that is a slanderous lie.  Where have I refused to acknowledge that Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh and the promised Messiah?  Since you have decided to use character assassination as a tactic here, you will have to proceed on your own.  I have no reason to consider anything more you have to say.  

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