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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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17 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

Rev. 20 :4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection

What did John see; 1.  thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge (The Bride, the Church)  2. The souls of those beheaded during the time of the A/C and False Prophet (over 90 percent of the Body has and will not ever see this or partake in this)..... 3. the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 were over.    Yet it says blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection.  All this if for The Resurrection for the Just.

Those mentioned in the GWT Judgment are not revealed until v. 11. which is after the 1000 years is over. And after v. 4,5 and 6; which are all the Just.

31 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

Those whose names are written in the book of life enter into the joy of the Lord.  They are judged by their works.  Those who are not in the book of life go to the lake of fire.  This is when the sea gives up its dead.  This is the second resurrection.

Yes the Resurrection of the Unjust.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

What did John see; 1.  thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge (The Bride, the Church)  2. The souls of those beheaded during the time of the A/C and False Prophet (over 90 percent of the Body has and will not ever see this or partake in this)..... 3. the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 were over.    Yet it says blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection.  All this if for The Resurrection for the Just.

Those mentioned in the GWT Judgment are not revealed until v. 11. which is after the 1000 years is over. And after v. 4,5 and 6; which are all the Just.

Yes the Resurrection of the Unjust.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Your reasoning does not match the scripture as I read it.  John who received and wrote the Revelation for us is very aware and more so than we of all that will be happening and yet in chapter 20 he describes the first resurrection and gives the limits and purpose and writes this is the first resurrection.  He did not say this is the culmination of the first resurrection or just a partial list of those who will be raised.  To add to the revelation as John received it and recorded for us is to add to the text.  John left those out that you have included because they were not included in that which was revealed to him.  Being faithful to the text is not taking away from the writings.  Whatever you believe must not be superimposed upon the writings of John. 

Believers  are raised up at the last day.  The last day is the day at the end of the thousand years.  After the last day when believers are raised according to the words of Jesus there will be no other day in the life of humans as we know it.  That will be the beginning of the new.  If you do not think Jesus was accurate when He said those who believe I will raise up at the last day, you should inform Him that He was wrong.  John 6 :40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”  This does not say some time before the tribulation it says last day.

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10 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

Your reasoning does not match the scripture as I read it.  John who received and wrote the Revelation for us is very aware and more so than we of all that will be happening and yet in chapter 20 he describes the first resurrection and gives the limits and purpose and writes this is the first resurrection.  He did not say this is the culmination of the first resurrection or just a partial list of those who will be raised.  To add to the revelation as John received it and recorded for us is to add to the text.  John left those out that you have included because they were not included in that which was revealed to him.  Being faithful to the text is not taking away from the writings.  Whatever you believe must not be superimposed upon the writings of John. 

Believers  are raised up at the last day.  The last day is the day at the end of the thousand years.  After the last day when believers are raised according to the words of Jesus there will be no other day in the life of humans as we know it.  That will be the beginning of the new.  If you do not think Jesus was accurate when He said those who believe I will raise up at the last day, you should inform Him that He was wrong.  John 6 :40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”  This does not say some time before the tribulation it says last day.

You have missed the point of the Harpozo of 2 Thes 2.  Concerning the come of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him..  Don't be alarmed. For this day will not come about until the departure occurs, and the lawless one is revealed.  Don't you remember that when I was with you, I told you of these things.  The dead in Christ rise First, then we who are still alive will meet them in the air.  This is well before the Mill.  We are his royal priesthood during the 1000 years.

The Last day can be the last day of the Church Age. It can be the last day of the 70th Week. It can be shortly after the Mill once Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire.  The Last day can be when the heavens disappear with a roar.  2 Peter 3:10.

1 Cor 15: 23,24 -  But each in his own turn, Christ the first fruit, then when he comes those who belong to him. Then the end will come when He hands over the keys of the Kingdom to the Father.

Col 3:4 - When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in Glory.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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18 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

You have missed the point of the Harpozo of 2 Thes 2.  Concerning the come of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him..  Don't be alarmed. For this day will not come about until the departure occurs, and the lawless one is revealed.  Don't you remember that when I was with you, I told you of these things.  The dead in Christ rise First, then we who are still alive will meet them in the air.  This is well before the Mill.  We are his royal priesthood during the 1000 years.

The Last day can be the last day of the Church Age. It can be the last day of the 70th Week. It can be shortly after the Mill once Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire.  The Last day can be when the heavens disappear with a roar.  2 Peter 3:10.

1 Cor 15: 23,24 -  But each in his own turn, Christ the first fruit, then when he comes those who belong to him. Then the end will come when He hands over the keys of the Kingdom to the Father.

Col 3:4 - When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in Glory.

In Christ

Montana Marv

The only problem with your theory is there is not a resurrection at that time.  Did John have an oversight in relaying the revelation and you have helped him out?  Does, "this is the first resurrection" mean anything?  Does the prayer of Jesus mean anything  when He prayed recorded in John 17, "13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them,for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified."   Jesus prayed that we not be taken out of the world.  You seem to be saying the opposite.

The gathering is linked to the resurrection.  The first is for the purpose of reigning on the earth at that time no one goes up.  The only time remaining that the rapture could occur is at the last day at the end of the millennium.  This is the day that Jesus will appear as judge of the whole earth.

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Now I can’t lay it all out here because I’m on a phone and trucking. But I see the first resurrection happening in three stages. There were the firstfruits at the resurrection of Jesus. Next will be the main harvest, which is the Body of Christ, lastly will be Old Testament and tribulation saints. The first resurrection will be complete. Exactly like harvesting a field in the Bible. IMO. 

The second resurrection will be after the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. The lost. ?

Edited by Kristin
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On 8/21/2019 at 12:33 PM, Montana Marv said:

What did John see; 1.  thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge (The Bride, the Church)  2. The souls of those beheaded during the time of the A/C and False Prophet (over 90 percent of the Body has and will not ever see this or partake in this)..... 3. the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 were over.    Yet it says blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection.  All this if for The Resurrection for the Just.

Those mentioned in the GWT Judgment are not revealed until v. 11. which is after the 1000 years is over. And after v. 4,5 and 6; which are all the Just.

Yes the Resurrection of the Unjust.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I will certainly agree that those who are raised in the first resurrection are just but not all the just.  The list is exclusive though you are trying to expand it.  The blessing of being part of the first resurrection is that the second death will have no power over them.  If everyone going into the thousand years is in this condition then satan has no success when he is loosed.  He will have no one that can be deceived.  By saying that all the just are raised at the first resurrection youdo nullify the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 25.

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

There is not a time before this that the books are opened.  Not a time before this that judgement is made.  This refers to the rest of the dead being raised at the end of the thousand years.  Thew sheep and the goats are there together and are separated at this time.  To say that the just are not raised at this time is to disagree with Jesus and say that He did not know what he was saying.

 

 

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On 8/24/2019 at 4:04 PM, seeking the lost said:

I will certainly agree that those who are raised in the first resurrection are just but not all the just.  The list is exclusive though you are trying to expand it.  The blessing of being part of the first resurrection is that the second death will have no power over them.  If everyone going into the thousand years is in this condition then satan has no success when he is loosed.  He will have no one that can be deceived.  By saying that all the just are raised at the first resurrection youdo nullify the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 25.

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

There is not a time before this that the books are opened.  Not a time before this that judgement is made.  This refers to the rest of the dead being raised at the end of the thousand years.  Thew sheep and the goats are there together and are separated at this time.  To say that the just are not raised at this time is to disagree with Jesus and say that He did not know what he was saying.

 

 

The sheep are nations, and are judged according to how they treated Christians.  Animals like sheep and goats are a common symbol for an entire nation. Eg Dan 8. 

 

Some nations live on, in an ongoing blessing, eg Israel and Egypt. Some become lakes of fire, the destiny of Edom for example. 

 

I believe the judgement at the end of the 1000 years will determine individual destinies of citizens of the nations which exist during the millennium. 

 

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On 9/19/2019 at 4:51 PM, ARGOSY said:

The sheep are nations, and are judged according to how they treated Christians.  Animals like sheep and goats are a common symbol for an entire nation. Eg Dan 8. 

 

Some nations live on, in an ongoing blessing, eg Israel and Egypt. Some become lakes of fire, the destiny of Edom for example. 

 

I believe the judgement at the end of the 1000 years will determine individual destinies of citizens of the nations which exist during the millennium. 

 

I was thinking that the thousand years were a thousand years of peace.  Do you think there are going to be rebellious nations during that time?  The sheep that Jesus is speaking of are individuals that have done the will of the Father.  The goats those who are not found in the book of life.

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17 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

I was thinking that the thousand years were a thousand years of peace.  Do you think there are going to be rebellious nations during that time?  The sheep that Jesus is speaking of are individuals that have done the will of the Father.  The goats those who are not found in the book of life.

The traditional view is that they are individuals, but 3 points contradict that view:

1) they are described as nations, not individuals

2)there is strong symbolic precedent for large animals to represent nations, for example the ram and goat of Daniel 8. 

3) they are judged for how they treat the saved brethren, implying they are not saved brethren

 

On the balance of logic, and the actual wording, points to them being nations and not individuals. 

Yes the following millennium is a time of peace, populated by people from the nations that survive the Day of the Lord. At the end of the millennium there is that final Gog/Magog war against Jerusalem, then the final judgement day. 

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On 9/23/2019 at 11:59 AM, ARGOSY said:

The traditional view is that they are individuals, but 3 points contradict that view:

1) they are described as nations, not individuals

2)there is strong symbolic precedent for large animals to represent nations, for example the ram and goat of Daniel 8. 

3) they are judged for how they treat the saved brethren, implying they are not saved brethren

 

On the balance of logic, and the actual wording, points to them being nations and not individuals. 

Yes the following millennium is a time of peace, populated by people from the nations that survive the Day of the Lord. At the end of the millennium there is that final Gog/Magog war against Jerusalem, then the final judgement day. 

I would hold to the traditional view.  The nations are brought before the throne and then the separation is made.  Each nation will have sheep and each nation will have at least some goats.  The sheep of a nation will not have to depart with the goats if they are of a goat nation.  When the books are opened the names of those who will enter the kingdom has nothing to do with their nationality.  These are individual names written in the Lambs book of life.  It is by the book that the separation is made.

 

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