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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

I would hold to the traditional view.  The nations are brought before the throne and then the separation is made.  Each nation will have sheep and each nation will have at least some goats.  The sheep of a nation will not have to depart with the goats if they are of a goat nation.  When the books are opened the names of those who will enter the kingdom has nothing to do with their nationality.  These are individual names written in the Lambs book of life.  It is by the book that the separation is made.

 

The parable of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 occurs at the second coming but is nothing like the rapture. When the rapture separates the saved, it is not a Throne room judgement. In addition the saved are raptured according to faith in Jesus, not according to how they treated the brethren. Our rapture/separation is not a works based salvation, it is based on faith. Yet the sheep nations in the parable are judged on works. 

 

The sheep are not saved believers, what are they then? 

 

 

 

Edited by ARGOSY
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3 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

The parable of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 occurs at the second coming but is nothing like the rapture. When the rapture separates the saved, it is not a Throne room judgement. In addition the saved are raptured according to faith in Jesus, not according to how they treated the brethren. Our rapture/separation is not a works based salvation, it is based on faith. Yet the sheep nations in the parable are judged on works. 

 

The sheep are not saved believers, what are they then? 

 

 

 

I do not follow your timeline at all.  It bares no resemblance to scripture.  There are only two resurrections.  The second resurrection is when believers are raised.  Jesus said those who believe in Him will be raised up on the last day.  The resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the last day.  Books are opened believers judged by works.  Jesus said my sheep hear my voice.  Who do you suppose those sheep are?

The rapture happens at the second resurrection.  You do know that the rapture is linked to this resurrection.  

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3 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

I do not follow your timeline at all.  It bares no resemblance to scripture.  There are only two resurrections.  The second resurrection is when believers are raised.  Jesus said those who believe in Him will be raised up on the last day.  The resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the last day.  Books are opened believers judged by works.  Jesus said my sheep hear my voice.  Who do you suppose those sheep are?

The rapture happens at the second resurrection.  You do know that the rapture is linked to this resurrection.  

I've never heard of your timeline before. You say that believers are raised at the second resurrection? 

Those that reign with Christ are surely believers and come to life at the first resurrection:

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection

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7 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

I've never heard of your timeline before. You say that believers are raised at the second resurrection? 

Those that reign with Christ are surely believers and come to life at the first resurrection:

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection

The only ones raised at the first resurrection are those stated for the purpose of reigning.  This does not include all believers.  Rev. 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Only the martyrs are raised at the first resurrection.  It is not a good idea to add to the specifically stated people that are raised.  There is a curse associated with adding to the text.  The rest of the dead includes all people sheep and goats from the beginning of time to the end of days.

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15 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

The only ones raised at the first resurrection are those stated for the purpose of reigning.  This does not include all believers.  Rev. 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Only the martyrs are raised at the first resurrection.  It is not a good idea to add to the specifically stated people that are raised.  There is a curse associated with adding to the text.  The rest of the dead includes all people sheep and goats from the beginning of time to the end of days.

I will stick to scripture, thank you very much. 

The sheep are judged by works, so they cannot be believers who are judged on faith in Christ 

The sheep are judged for how they treat the brethren, so they cannot be the brethren if they are described as separate entities to the brethren. 

The sheep have a throne room judgement, but us believers go straight to heaven at the rapture without being divided from unbelievers in a throne room judgement . 

The sheep are described as nations, they are described differently to the brethren within the same chapter who are obviously individuals. 

 

You haven't dealt clearly with each one of my objections. 

Edited by ARGOSY
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Way back when--about 40 years ago--I was instructed by folks who were old timers then who said that the pre-trib rapture doctrine started when a woman in an assembly somewhere in the southern USA said the Lord gave her a word on it.

I can't recall the state, but it seemed to me at the time to be a well accepted thing among those that said they were familiar with the event.

Has anyone ever heard of this. Or does anyone have knowledge as to when in history the doctrine had its inception?

 

edited: my memory was faulty on this. I have been remembered. It was a women in Scotland in 1830.

Edited by Alive
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3 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

I will stick to scripture, thank you very much. 

The sheep are judged by works, so they cannot be believers who are judged on faith in Christ 

The sheep are judged for how they treat the brethren, so they cannot be the brethren if they are described as separate entities to the brethren. 

The sheep have a throne room judgement, but us believers go straight to heaven at the rapture without being divided from unbelievers in a throne room judgement . 

The sheep are described as nations, they are described differently to the brethren within the same chapter who are obviously individuals. 

 

You haven't dealt clearly with each one of my objections. 

I do not believe you are sticking to scripture.  It seems you are sticking to some things that you have put together and assume to be the truth.  Jesus teaches clearly that all will be judged by what they do.  Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

If you do not do the will of the Father, which is works, you will hear I never knew you.  Consider the words of James 2

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.  

Your faith is judged as not saving faith if you do not do the will of the Father.  We the sheep are judged on the basis of faith that produces works.  Faith without works is dead.

Ephesians  2, a well known passage teaches us that we are saved unto works. 

. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Works were prepared for us to do.  If you are one who hears the word only and does not do it you are in trouble.

All judgement will be on individual basis.

It seems that you have made an assumption about who makes it in to the Millennium.  Do you have any base in scripture that would indicate goats in this kingdom?

Footnotes:

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On 9/25/2019 at 7:33 PM, seeking the lost said:

I do not believe you are sticking to scripture.  It seems you are sticking to some things that you have put together and assume to be the truth.  Jesus teaches clearly that all will be judged by what they do.  Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

If you do not do the will of the Father, which is works, you will hear I never knew you.  Consider the words of James 2

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.  

Your faith is judged as not saving faith if you do not do the will of the Father.  We the sheep are judged on the basis of faith that produces works.  Faith without works is dead.

Ephesians  2, a well known passage teaches us that we are saved unto works. 

. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Works were prepared for us to do.  If you are one who hears the word only and does not do it you are in trouble.

All judgement will be on individual basis.

It seems that you have made an assumption about who makes it in to the Millennium.  Do you have any base in scripture that would indicate goats in this kingdom?

Footnotes:

There are no goat nations in the millennial kingdom. 

The parable of the sheep and goats is pretty clear. Those nations who treated the brethren/Christians badly will not survive judgement day at the second coming. 

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On 9/24/2019 at 4:23 PM, ARGOSY said:

The parable of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 occurs at the second coming but is nothing like the rapture. When the rapture separates the saved, it is not a Throne room judgement. In addition the saved are raptured according to faith in Jesus, not according to how they treated the brethren. Our rapture/separation is not a works based salvation, it is based on faith. Yet the sheep nations in the parable are judged on works. 

 

The sheep are not saved believers, what are they then? 

 

Indeed, the Sheep and Goat judgment happens after Yeshua (Jesus) physically returns to earth. But it is an expository teaching by Yeshua on Joel 3.....

Joel 3:2 (NKJV) I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

Matthew 25:32 (NKJV) All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Actually, "nations" in scripture always has the Goyim / Gentiles in view.

The brethren that they are being either condemned (goats) or judged righteous (sheep) for are how they treated Yeshua's physical brethren, the Hebrew people.  See again Joel 3.

The Sheep are indeed saved believers, but not the believers of the Ekklesia/Church which had already been removed previous to the revealing of the man of sin / lawless one / son of perdition / antichrist character.

These sheep also have eternal life, just as we as believers now have passed from death to life due to our faith in the Messiah.  But they are still in their physical bodies and enter into the kingdom in those physical bodies.

These believers, or "sheep", of the Matthew 25 account are the people that came thru the GT period and will enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth under the Messiah's reign.  They are not ruling along with Messiah as it states the ekklesia/chruch does in Revelation 2:26-27.

Edited by OldCoot
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26 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Indeed, the Sheep and Goat judgment happens after Yeshua (Jesus) physically returns to earth. But it is an expository teaching by Yeshua on Joel 3.....

Joel 3:2 (NKJV) I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

Matthew 25:32 (NKJV) All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Actually, "nations" in scripture always has the Goyim / Gentiles in view.

The brethren that they are being either condemned (goats) or judged righteous (sheep) for are how they treated Yeshua's physical brethren, the Hebrew people.  See again Joel 3.

The Sheep are indeed saved believers, but not the believers of the Ekklesia/Church which had already been removed previous to the revealing of the man of sin / lawless one / son of perdition / antichrist character.

These sheep also have eternal life, just as we as believers now have passed from death to life due to our faith in the Messiah.  But they are still in their physical bodies and enter into the kingdom in those physical bodies.

These believers, or "sheep", of the Matthew 25 account are the people that came thru the GT period and will enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth under the Messiah's reign.  They are not ruling along with Messiah as it states the ekklesia/chruch does in Revelation 2:26-27.

Thanks for the reply, my view is similar, but being post-trib not quite the same. 

I believe the nations will be judged for how they treat Christians and Israel. On a national, not individual basis. 

I don't quite agree with your Jehosaphat comparison, that is specifically the destruction of all the attacking armies on the DOTL, in the mountainous area to the East of Jerusalem, also known as the winepress of wrath in Rev 14 and Rev 19.

But forgetting the details, I agree that the saved are resurrected earlier, and the better nations survive the second coming and populate the millennium. The bad nations are destroyed at the second coming. 

 

 

Edited by ARGOSY
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