Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

That's possible.  But what about Moses and Elijah?  Moses died (Joshua 1:2).  Then he appeared with Elijah, talking to Yeshua on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Doesn't that make him resurrected? 

Shalom, Resurrection Priest.

No. One must CAREFULLY read the Scriptures before making assumptions:

Matthew 16:24-17:13 (KJV)

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples,

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory (brightness) of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus,

"Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." 

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him!" 

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,

"Arise, and be not afraid."

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,

"Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

10 And his disciples asked him, saying,

"Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

These three disciples were given a VISION of things in the FUTURE, things that will occur AFTER that Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:23b)!

Quote

  And Paul says that "death reigned from Adam to Moses" (Romans 5:14). 

Is it possible that Moses was resurrected, and Elijah taken up, and Enoch taken without seeing death - all because of what God and His Son had promised to do.  God, because He saw the future, saw it as already done, and allowed Moses' resurrection because of what would be. 

No. Be careful to continue reading passages WITHIN THEIR CONTEXTS! Paul was talking to the Romans about this (and this is the MINIMUM one can cut the context):

Romans 5:12-21 (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift cameupon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Also, go back and read chapters 3 and 4. There were a few stages, but they ALL worked to the same result: all have sinned, and therefore all have been paid their wages of death for their sins. It's just that the Law put a "face" on that sin that led to death! All that Paul was saying was that, even before the Law was written down by Moses the Law-Giver, there was death as a result of sin!

Quote

That doesn't change Yeshua being "the firstfruits".  It was because of what Christ did, that Moses could be resurrected.  Everyone resurrected - was/is resurrected because of what Christ did.  His is the resurrection from which all the others flow - regardless of when they occurred.  Christ is not "first" in the sense of time occurrence.  He is first in the sense of cause, and importance. 

Yes, the Messiah IS the first and ONLY One to be resurrected as the new, "spiritual" body (sooma pneumatikon, "an air-blasting body"). All others before him were resurrected as his or her old "natural" body (sooma psuchikon, "an air-breathing body"). When He returns to set up His Kingdom, THEN those who are His will be resurrected/transformed as "air-blasting bodies."

Edited January 12, 2020 by Retrobyter
proper perspective

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I am not personally a believer in a "secret rapture" 7 years before the Glorious Return.   I don't see that.

I agree. But I DO believe in a pre-wrath rapture.  True - the saints/church may have to live through the seals and trumpets. But the 7 bowls of God's wrath come at an entirely different level.  They will be so devastating that there will be little (if any) life left on earth. Then, I believe (not absolutely) that the saints will return to set up Christ's millennial reign on earth.

My belief on that has been getting a little shaky.  Why would Christ prepare mansions for us in heaven if the Millennium is here on earth?

[JoeMo]

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

These three disciples were given a VISION of things in the FUTURE, things that will occur AFTER that Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:23b)!

I'm new here, so pardon me if I disagree.  While I can agree that people like Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, and the widow's son were resurrected to die again, I can't see that for folks like Elijah, Enoch, and Moses, or those holy ones resurrected with the resurrection of Christ.

"... it is appointed for men to die once; and then comes judgement" (Heb. 9:27).

Moses and Elijah are representatives or firstfruits of the two types of people who will inherit the Kingdom - Moses represents those who experienced the first death before entering the Kingdom, and Elijah represents those who at the end of time will enter the Kingdom without tasting death.  At least that's how I see it.

[Retrobyter]

15 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I agree. But I DO believe in a pre-wrath rapture.  True - the saints/church may have to live through the seals and trumpets. But the 7 bowls of God's wrath come at an entirely different level.  They will be so devastating that there will be little (if any) life left on earth. Then, I believe (not absolutely) that the saints will return to set up Christ's millennial reign on earth.

My belief on that has been getting a little shaky.  Why would Christ prepare mansions for us in heaven if the Millennium is here on earth?

Shalom, again, JoeMo.

He didn't put "mansions for us in heaven"; He put them in the New Jerusalem! And, after the Millennium, the New Jerusalem COMES HERE! See how it works? Please read carefully Revelation 21 and 22. (You might want to lead into it with chapter 20, as well.) Try to read the whole thing in a single sitting; it won't take you long to read 2 (or 3) chapters. To avoid distractions, read them with your family aloud.

[Retrobyter]

15 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I'm new here, so pardon me if I disagree.  While I can agree that people like Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, and the widow's son were resurrected to die again, I can't see that for folks like Elijah, Enoch, and Moses, or those holy ones resurrected with the resurrection of Christ.

"... it is appointed for men to die once; and then comes judgement" (Heb. 9:27).

Moses and Elijah are representatives or firstfruits of the two types of people who will inherit the Kingdom - Moses represents those who experienced the first death before entering the Kingdom, and Elijah represents those who at the end of time will enter the Kingdom without tasting death.  At least that's how I see it.

Shalom, again, JoeMo.

No problem. Eliyahuw ("Elijah"), Hanokh ("Enoch"), and Mosheh ("Moses") have all died. NONE OF THEM were translated to "heaven," as a place. The first two were carried off somewhere else to end their existence, and Moses was buried in a secret place. They shall be resurrected at the time when the Messiah returns, just as we.

Oh, and in the first post on page 153, which part don't you get?

Edited January 12, 2020 by Retrobyter
to address the reaction

[OldCoot]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, JoeMo, and welcome!

You're mentioning the same one that OldCoot says is the first in Matthew 27. However, only Yeshua` was the One who was resurrected at that time as a NEW body as described in
1 Corinthians 15:35-49. The others resurrected at His DEATH (not His Resurrection) were resurrected as people who would have to die again later.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 gives us Paul's understanding of the order of general resurrections:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and [is] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(1 or "0") Christ the firstfruits;
(2 or "1") afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (3 or "2") Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet.

(But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him (Christ, the Son), that God may be all in all.

The Greek of verse 20 is ...

Pros Korinthious A 15:20 

20 Nuni de Christos egeergetai ek nekroon, aparchee toon kekoimeemenoon.

20 Nuni = 20 now
de = But
Christos = [the]-Anointed-One, [the]-Messiah
egeergetai = has-been-raised
ek = from
nekroon, = [the]-dead-[ones], (plural adjective)
aparchee = [the]-firstfruit (singular noun)
toon = of-the (plural article)
kekoimeemenoon. = ones-having-fallen-asleep. (plural)

This last word is a verbal that is treated as a noun. It's a "perfect participle middle or passive" verb treated as noun that is a "genitive masculine plural." We'd call it a "gerund," as we would use the word "fishing" in the sentence "My favorite sport is fishing."

So the only words that are plural are nekroon, toon, and kekoimeemenoon (where "ee" is eta, and "oo" is omega). The only true verb (egeergetai) is third-person singular, and "aparchee," "firstfruit," is a singular noun.

The "Christ" or Messiah Yeshua` was the ONLY ONE who was in the first (or "zero-eth") resurrection!

Verse 24 is talking about the Resurrection found in Revelation 20, which happens after the Thousand-Year ("Millennial") Kingdom, when He shall be "putting all enemies under His feet," "putting down all rule and all authority and power." Then, He shall deliver up that "kingdom to God, even the Father," and "also Himself be subject unto him, ... that God may be all in all."

One must look closely at Matthew 27:

Matthew 27:45-54 (KJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" (Aramaic or "Syriatic" Hebrew transliterated into Greek and English)

that is to say,

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Greek translated to English)

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias!" ("Eliyahuw," often abbreviated to "Eliy")

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him."

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of God."

Let's look at the Greek of verses 51 through 53:

Kata Maththaion 27:51-53

51 Kai idou to katapetasma tou naou eschisthee ap' anoothen heoos katoo eis duo, kai hee gee eseisthee, kai hai petrai eschistheesan, 52 kai ta mneemeia aneoochtheesan kai polla soomata toon kekoimeemenoon hagioon eegertheesan, 53 kai exelthontes ek toon mneemeioon meta teen egersin autou eiseelthon eis teen hagian polin kai enefanistheesan pollois.

51 Kai = 51 And
idou = behold; look!
to = the
katapetasma = veil
tou = of-the
naou = Temple
eschisthee = was-torn
ap' = away-from
anoothen = [the]-top
heoos = until; as-much-as
katoo = [the]-bottom
eis = into
duo, = two,
kai = and
hee = the
gee = earth; ground
eseisthee, = was-shaken
kai = and
hai = the
petrai = rocks
eschistheesan, = were-split,
52 kai = 52 and
ta = the
mneemeia = memorials; tombs
aneoochtheesan = were-opened
kai = and
polla = many
soomata = bodies
toon = of-the
kekoimeemenoon = ones-having-fallen-asleep
hagioon = holy
eegertheesan, = were-raised,
53 kai = and
exelthontes = having-gone-forth
ek = out
toon = of-the
mneemeioon = memorials; tombs
meta = after
teen = the
egersin = resurrection
autou = of-Him; His
eiseelthon = they-entered
eis = into
teen = the
hagian = holy
polin = city
kai = and
enefanistheesan = they-appeared
pollois. = to-many.

So, these that arose at that time, were brought back to life AT HIS DEATH! The tombs were opened, but they didn't leave them until the Messiah arose, and THEN they went into the city, Jerusalem. Their resurrections were still resurrections like those of Lazarus, the daughter of Jairus, and the widow's son! They would have to die again! They were NOT resurrected as our Lord was! They had time to help the believers after Yeshua` ascended ALONE to the sky! (See Acts 1:9-11.)

Also, the "two men" who "stood by them in white apparel" (Acts 1:10) are never said to be "angels." These may have been two of the ones who were resurrected, but that's conjecture.

Ephesian 4:8 is a QUOTATION from Psalm 68:18!

Psalm 68:7-19 (KJV)

7 O God, when thou wentest forth before thy people, when thou didst march through the wilderness; Selah:

8 The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.
10 Thy congregation hath dwelt therein: thou, O God, hast prepared of thy goodness for the poor.
11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.
12 Kings of armies did flee apace: and she that tarried at home divided the spoil.
13 Though ye have lien among the pots, yet shall ye be as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with yellow gold.
14 When the Almighty scattered kings in it, it was white as snow in Salmon.
15 The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan; an high hill as the hill of Bashan.
16 Why leap ye, ye high hills? this is the hill (Mount Moriah in Zion) which God desireth to dwell in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.
17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

This "captivity led captive" were the children of Israel, those whom were led from Egypt!

Nice work, but I will keep mine simpler.

Matthew 27:53 (NKJV) and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

And many early church writers who were far closer to the event that we are, some who knew the Apostles and were in a better position to get first hand testimony of what really happened, seem to think that these saints of Matthew 27 were resurrected in the same manner as those in the future will be resurrected... as free from death again, immortal.   It comports with the pattern established with Leviticus 23 harvest.

Dr. Norman Geisler did a substantive treatise on the subject and outlined many of the early writers comments on this.

http://normangeisler.com/the-early-fathers-and-the-resurrection-of-the-saints-in-matthew-27/

So while it may be fun to break down the words and try to imply something from a subjective meaning of each word, there is no indication from the text that these resurrected "saints" were to die again as in the case of Lazarus or Jairus' daughter.  So all we can do is rely on what the early writers had to say on the issue since they were far closer to the event than we are.  To assume different one has no evidential support.

That these resurrected saints went into the city and presented themselves to others as confirmation, it is more likely that they were saints who had died in the recent years and would be known to those that saw them.  So applying the text of Acts 2:29 in implying that none of the OT saints were resurrected to eternal life has little actual support. 

And we must also look at  the account of when Yeshua arose.  When He confronted Mary early that morning near the tomb, He told her not to touch or handle him as He had yet ascended to the Father.  We know that later that evening, the disciples did touch Him as He told them to.  Yet the ascension of Acts 1 was to occur many days later.  What happened at the morning resurrection was in keeping with Leviticus 23.  As now our High Priest, He would need to remain ceremonially pure to present the first fruits of the harvest to the Father, hence His instruction to Mary to not touch Him.  After accomplishing the task of presenting the first fruits of the harvest of the redeemed, it would then be ok to touch Him, as they did later when He appeared to the disciples.

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

He didn't put "mansions for us in heaven"; He put them in the New Jerusalem! And, after the Millennium, the New Jerusalem COMES HERE! See how it works?

I don't.  Since Yeshua seems to make it pretty clear that the mansions/chambers/rooms etc are being prepared at the Father's house....

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

And Isaiah 26, which prefaces itself as at the beginning of the birth pains as mentioned by Jeremiah...

Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Isaiah 26:17 (NKJV) As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O Lord.

And it is the same context that Isaiah says the righteous are hidden, in accordance with Zephaniah....

Zephaniah 2:3 (NKJV) Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.

Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

So no, I don't concur with your assessment that these mansions/chambers/rooms etc are part of the New Jerusalem after the Millenium.  One would have to present a lot of sciptural support for that to outweigh the above references.

Well, I suppose one could argue that these mansions/chambers/rooms could be the New Jerusalem as it sits in Heaven, but not as you assert after it has come to the earth.  Especially since the saints who are there return with the Lord when He comes to establish the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom.

Jude 1:14-15 (NKJV) Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

And that judgment mentioned is the judgement of both Israel (Ezekiel 20:37-38) and the nations (Joel 3:2, Matthew 25:31-46) at the end of the Tribulation Period, at the point where the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom starts.

Edited January 12, 2020 by OldCoot

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I don't.  Since Yeshua seems to make it pretty clear that the mansions/chambers/rooms etc are being prepared at the Father's house....

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

And Isaiah 26, which prefaces itself as at the beginning of the birth pains as mentioned by Jeremiah...

Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Isaiah 26:17 (NKJV) As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O Lord.

And it is the same context that Isaiah says the righteous are hidden, in accordance with Zephaniah....

Zephaniah 2:3 (NKJV) Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.

Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

So no, I don't concur with your assessment that these mansions/chambers/rooms etc are part of the New Jerusalem after the Millenium.  One would have to present a lot of sciptural support for that to outweigh the above references.

Well, I suppose one could argue that these mansions/chambers/rooms could be the New Jerusalem as it sits in Heaven, but not as you assert after it has come to the earth.  Especially since the saints who are there return with the Lord when He comes to establish the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom.

Jude 1:14-15 (NKJV) Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

And that judgment mentioned is the judgement of both Israel (Ezekiel 20:37-38) and the nations (Joel 3:2, Matthew 25:31-46) at the end of the Tribulation Period, at the point where the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom starts.

I admit your posts have an internal logic and consistency for the most part. I do like the fact that you are convinced of your position. But it only works if one equates the 70th week with birth pangs, with tribulation, with wrath. I noticed you don't like to equate the Father's house with New Jerusalem. Maybe it is valid to equate the two, maybe not. I don't know that they are equivalent but they could be as the same object can be called by different names. 

But you seem to have no problem equating the 70th week with birth pangs, great tribulation, and wrath as if they are all the same, and with no justification for your position. At least you try and justify why you contend the Father's house is not New Jerusalem, though it's a bit sketchy. Your position is that since it's not called New Jerusalem in John 14 then it isn't. That is proving something doesn't exist which is logically untenable. Absence of evidence is a trap allowing the mind to conjure all sorts of scenarios through mental gymnastics. Is there really no evidence, or maybe evidence hasn't been found? 

Then, when there is hard evidence that things do exist it seems you deny it in favor of the false premise. No where is there evidence that the 70th week, birth pangs, great tribulation and wrath are synonymous nor can be gathered under the umbrella of 'The Tribulation Period'. So this is absence of evidence. Nothing says this cannot be true, so it must be. Illogical and unsupported ergo, a false premise. There is evidence they are distinct periods of time within an overarching historical period contradicting the idea of equivalency. Matt 24 lays out the flow of time and the profound changes providing insight into the great changes in the nature of conditions of each separate period. 

Birth pangs are not a huge concern. Great tribulation is a monstrous and terrifying time. The return of Jesus is glorious for the elect and destruction for the rebels. The pretrib stance here would have great tribulation as the whole of the week; pouring out the time that has not been nor ever shall be right from the beginning of the week and throughout the whole week, in direct opposition to the words of Jesus, "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed...All these are the beginning of birth pains." Then later Jesus says,

Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak. How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved."

Two distinct periods of time, one where there is no cause for alarm, the next the most pressure packed period the world has ever seen. In no way are these periods equivalent. To make the claim of equivalency one must elevate themselves in status to the godlike as the idea of equivalency contradicts the Lord in comparing these passages. Now the next false premise...

It is also false to claim the birth pangs have been occurring since Jesus ascended. It's true what is mentioned in Matt 24:4-14 has been going on since Jesus spoke these words, but also for millennia before His first advent. So it cannot be that it's a general statement concerning world conditions over 5000 years for two reasons:

1) Jesus is answering the disciples about the end of the age and His return, not about 5000 years of general world conditions and the sin in the heart of mankind. He must be speaking of specific conditions that represent a fundamental difference in the behavior of mankind.

2) ""So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened"

Ergo; the conditions of Matt 24:4-14 must represent a change in the behavior of mankind in close proximity to end of the age and the return of Jesus. The generation alive at the time must not only see all those things contained in Matt 24:4-29, that generation will not pass away until it's all fulfilled. This cannot be said to have occurred in history to this point. Accordingly, the last generation must be a witness to a paradigm shift in psychology and behavior in close proximity to the A of D, great tribulation and the cosmic upheaval signalling the return of the King.

Wrath is not synonymous with the 70th week and is an event and condition that occurs within and only after great tribulation; and all must occur in the sight of a generation that witnesses all these things and does not pass till it's all fulfilled.

 

                                                                                                

                                                                                       

 

 

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

But you seem to have no problem equating the 70th week with birth pangs, great tribulation, and wrath as if they are all the same,

Nope. I equate the birth pains as either preceding or the beginning of the 70th week / tribulation period. 

The scripture is pretty clear on what constitutes the birth pains.  And as weather phenomena, seismic activity, and the numbers of active wars across the planet seem to be increasing, it would seem that the birth pains are pretty much in view.  Also, Daniel lays out that the 70th week, like the previous 69, has its focus on his people, the Hebrews.   Matthew 24, likewise, has its focus on the land of Israel, hence the Hebrews.  Likewise, Jeremiah 30 has its focus as Jacob (Israel), the Hebrews.  So applying these passages world wide, and even to the redeemed, is not warranted.   Jeremiah calls it the time of Jacob's Trouble, not the time of the Church's Trouble.   

Yes, I do equate the entire period of the tribulation / 70th week as the time of the wrath.   For one, the scroll which Yeshua is handed is written on both sides.  That is typical of a deed in the 1st century.  He is the only one found worthy to lay claim to the earth, and opening those seals is His taking back the claim to the earth.   When He was "tempted" by Satan, one of those was the offer of giving all the nations to Him if He would worship Satan.  Well, one cannot offer what one does not have, and Yeshua never disputed Satan's claim to owning the title deed to the earth.   The title deed was lost by Adam and Satan now owns the earth.  None of what happens on the earth as described in those seals can happen until those seals are opened, and they are opened by Him. Ergo, all the events are at and under His control.  He is the first cause.  So they all fall under what could be called "wrath".  And it is the final realization of that fact that these events are part of that, which leads those on the earth to proclaim that the wrath of the Lamb has come.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Sonshine said:

The LORD’s heaven will be here on earth (the new Jerusalem descending out of heaven) on Mt. Zion.

But that is after the 1000  years and the new earth and new heaven of Revelation 21.  That does not comport with the Isaiah 26 and John 14, which specifically states the mansions/rooms/chambers/abodes are in the Father's house.  

For any matter to be established according to Torah and as exampled by the Bereans in Acts 17, the testimony of both the OT and NT must be in uniformity.  You will have to provide ample evidence from both the NT and OT that the mansions/rooms/abodes/ etc refer only to the New Jerusalem. 

Edited January 12, 2020 by OldCoot