Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Alive]

14 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I believe those raised/raptured/translated at the Glorious Return will be "changed in a moment" and will receive the new "spiritual body".

Those resurrected at the 8th millennium, will be resurrected in mortal physical bodies. 

I see physical circumcision (cutting away flesh) as a TYPE/symbol of the "change" we will undergo.  Our mortal "flesh" will be gone.  Joshua "circumcised the people" after they crossed Jordan, and then they ate the Passover.   Our Yeshua will circumcise his "people" as we cross the sky.  Then we will eat the Passover new with Him, in the Kingdom.

The first for sure, the second could be.

[Resurrection Priest]

6 minutes ago, Sonshine said:

Greetings... I've never heard the term "8th millennium."  What does it mean?

This is AFTER Satan is thrown into the abyss. 

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

If "the rest" do not live again for 1000 years, where does that put their resurrection? 

The 1000 years will be the 7th millennium.

Puts their resurrection at the 8th millennium.  Same time that Satan is released from "the pit". 

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

"The rest" are resurrected AND Satan is "loosed" at the same time, because the contest for the souls of "the rest" is not finished.  They have not made their choice yet. 

That is why we will be needed as priest and kings, to teach these people - to win them for Christ.  Satan will try to deceive them, to bring their destruction. 

Folks so very much want things to be over with when Jesus returns.  But it's not over.  There's another chapter. 

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Nice work, but I will keep mine simpler.

Matthew 27:53 (NKJV) and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

And many early church writers who were far closer to the event that we are, some who knew the Apostles and were in a better position to get first hand testimony of what really happened, seem to think that these saints of Matthew 27 were resurrected in the same manner as those in the future will be resurrected... as free from death again, immortal.   It comports with the pattern established with Leviticus 23 harvest.

Dr. Norman Geisler did a substantive treatise on the subject and outlined many of the early writers comments on this.

http://normangeisler.com/the-early-fathers-and-the-resurrection-of-the-saints-in-matthew-27/

So while it may be fun to break down the words and try to imply something from a subjective meaning of each word, there is no indication from the text that these resurrected "saints" were to die again as in the case of Lazarus or Jairus' daughter.  So all we can do is rely on what the early writers had to say on the issue since they were far closer to the event than we are.  To assume different one has no evidential support.

That these resurrected saints went into the city and presented themselves to others as confirmation, it is more likely that they were saints who had died in the recent years and would be known to those that saw them.  So applying the text of Acts 2:29 in implying that none of the OT saints were resurrected to eternal life has little actual support. 

And we must also look at  the account of when Yeshua arose.  When He confronted Mary early that morning near the tomb, He told her not to touch or handle him as He had yet ascended to the Father.  We know that later that evening, the disciples did touch Him as He told them to.  Yet the ascension of Acts 1 was to occur many days later.  What happened at the morning resurrection was in keeping with Leviticus 23.  As now our High Priest, He would need to remain ceremonially pure to present the first fruits of the harvest to the Father, hence His instruction to Mary to not touch Him.  After accomplishing the task of presenting the first fruits of the harvest of the redeemed, it would then be ok to touch Him, as they did later when He appeared to the disciples.

 

Even the church fathers of whom you speak lived nearly 100 years after the event at the earliest! And, Dr. Norman Geisler said, 

Quote

 

Concluding Comments

Of course, there are some aspects of this Matthew 27 text of the saints on which the Fathers were uncertain.  For example, there is the question as to whether the saints were resurrected before or after Jesus was and whether it was a resuscitation to a mortal body or a permanent resurrection to an immortal body.  However, there is no reason for serious doubt that all the Fathers surveyed accepted the historicity of this account.

 

And, the historicity of the account in Matthew 27 was his point in the first place! These early "fathers" ("call no man on earth your 'father'") were mere men like the rest of us, and they were GREATLY influenced (as were the Jews) by Greek philosophers like Plato and Socrates and Aristotle.

These philosophers were among the first to separate the "soul" from the body. The "soul" being of the spiritual realm being innately good while the body being of the physical realm being essentially bad in the sense that it is mundane and temporary and inferior to the spiritual realm.

The adoption of this Greek philosophical Platonism into the Christian faith is what Randy Alcorn called "Christoplatonism."

However, a Bible-believing student should not be so gullible. What makes this "Christoplatonism" so superior to simply studying God's Word with respect to the original languages in which the books of the Bible were written? (It's the same question I ask of those who think modern "Science" [falsely so-called] is superior to a position of taking God's Word at face value. Modern "Science" is simply a BELIEF-SYSTEM! a PHILOSOPHY solely based upon a particular INTERPRETATION of the facts!)

The simple truth is that "soul," which comes from the Hebrew word "nefesh" or the Greek word "psuchee," simply means an "air-breathing creature." That's hard to picture if one separates that "soul" from the body! That's REALLY EASY to see if one just looks at the definitions of the words in Strong's "Dictionary of the Hebrew and Chaldee Languages."

 

[OldCoot]

7 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I believe it very possible there may be 24 "courses" of elders.   King David divided "the priesthood" into 24 courses, with each course serving at the Temple for 2 weeks at a time, plus all the priests served during the Feasts.

Ding, Ding, Ding!   We have a winner!

Peter said that we are a royal priesthood.  That would be kings a priests of Revelation 5.

[OldCoot]

5 hours ago, Alive said:

Isn’t the Lord ruling with a rod of iron for the 1000 years?

Indeed.  As are we along side Him....

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'—
as I also have received from My Father;

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, the historicity of the account in Matthew 27 was his point in the first place! These early "fathers" ("call no man on earth your 'father'")

I never called them "fathers".  Norm Geisler might have, but I called them "early church writers".

[OldCoot]

9 hours ago, Sonshine said:

I don't believe Isaiah 26:20 is referencing the kind of "mansions" as described in John 14:3.  Let's look at Isaiah 26:20:

Isaiah 26:20:  "Come My People, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee:  hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast."  

God is telling His people to go into their inner chambers and shut their doors and hide from the antichrist.  Actually, we Christians will be hiding in Christ who is our Protector.  Amen?

Except context is everything.

Isaiah 26 starts out tying itself to Revelation 4.  Both Hebrew and Greek words can mean both door and gate.....

Isaiah 26:2 (NKJV) Open the gates,
That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.

Revelation 4:1 (NKJV) After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."

And Peter calls us a holy or righteous nation which ties into above, and even ties us into Revelation 5 by calling us a royal priesthood....

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

And the kings and priest redeemed from all the nations are present before the Lord opens the first seal....

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) "You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth."

I showed in an earlier post how Isaiah 26:17 ties itself into Jeremiah 30:6-7 regarding the birth pains and Time of Jacob's Trouble, which Yeshua also references in Matthew 24.

But getting to Isaiah 26:19-21, it ties into, Zephaniah 2, 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15....

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Zephaniah 2:3 (NKJV) Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And all that ties nicely into John 14...

John 14:2-3 (NKJV Strong's) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 

As a side note, a reasonable case can be made from 2 Thessalonians 2 that the timing of this removal is before the antichrist/son of perdition/man of sin is revealed.  Pinning down the removal definitively before the 70th week starts and the seals are broken.

And all the above follows the requirement of the Torah that a matter can only be established on the testimony of at least two witnesses.  And the Bereans in Acts 17 showed us how that is to be applied.....

Acts 17:11 (NKJV) These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Paul's teaching would make up a significant portion of the NT.  All the Bereans had for a canon of scripture at that time was the OT.  So the two witnesses are the OT and the NT.  Not one of them alone even with multiple references from one.  There has to be corroborated evidence from both OT and NT.  And the above references I made pass that test.

Edited January 13, 2020 by OldCoot

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I don't believe that Enoch or Elijah or those resurrected by Christ just after He was raised, were "carried off" to another location "to end their lives".  Nope!  Don't believe it. 

John was given a vision of the throne room of God.  There John saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads." (Rev 4:4).

In v.8, "the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." v.9-10  "And they sang a song, saying;  You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth." 

"Shall reign" - is in the FUTURE TENSE. 

I believe the twenty-four elders were in Heaven when John saw them, many years after Christ returned to sit at the Father's right hand.

They were "redeemed" by the blood of the Lamb.  That means they are human beings.

They were of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.  Which means they are NOT ALL LEVITE.  These are Melchizedek priests. 

They have been made (are being made - aorist tense) kings and priests, to reign on the earth.  

The twenty-four elders are human beings, in heaven, waiting for the time when they will "reign" on the earth. 

These kings and priests, were holding bowls of incense - which represent the prayers of the saints still on earth.  They are acting as priestly mediators, which WAS one of the roles of the priests.  We today, pray for others. 

Shalom, Resurrection Priest.

LOL! Sorry for laughing, but you are ASSUMING that one INSTANTLY becomes a king and/or a priest upon resurrection! Do YOU know how to perform the duties of a king or a priest right now? If you don't (and I'm pretty sure you don't), what makes you think we'll be ready immediately after resurrection/transformation? No, these "elders" are those among the children of Israel who already HAD such experience! OR, there are some who will have learning curves before they will be ready to perform their duties.

You got it partly correct: The twenty-four elders ARE human beings, freshly resurrected, waiting for the time when they will reign on the earth (as under-kings of the King of kings, Yeshua` haMashiyach haMelekh)!

You're also making an assumption that the Greek words "hoo ouranoo" do not mean "the sky" but mean "Heaven."

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Sonshine said:

Greetings... I've never heard the term "8th millennium."  What does it mean?

Shalom, Sonshine.

It's just the beginning of the "Eternal Age" when the New Earth with its New Sky is formed and the New Jerusalem comes down to land upon it. (Revelation 21 and 22).

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Nope. I equate the birth pains as either preceding or the beginning of the 70th week / tribulation period. 

The scripture is pretty clear on what constitutes the birth pains.  And as weather phenomena, seismic activity, and the numbers of active wars across the planet seem to be increasing, it would seem that the birth pains are pretty much in view.  Also, Daniel lays out that the 70th week, like the previous 69, has its focus on his people, the Hebrews.   Matthew 24, likewise, has its focus on the land of Israel, hence the Hebrews.  Likewise, Jeremiah 30 has its focus as Jacob (Israel), the Hebrews.  So applying these passages world wide, and even to the redeemed, is not warranted.   Jeremiah calls it the time of Jacob's Trouble, not the time of the Church's Trouble.   

Yes, I do equate the entire period of the tribulation / 70th week as the time of the wrath.   For one, the scroll which Yeshua is handed is written on both sides.  That is typical of a deed in the 1st century.  He is the only one found worthy to lay claim to the earth, and opening those seals is His taking back the claim to the earth.   When He was "tempted" by Satan, one of those was the offer of giving all the nations to Him if He would worship Satan.  Well, one cannot offer what one does not have, and Yeshua never disputed Satan's claim to owning the title deed to the earth.   The title deed was lost by Adam and Satan now owns the earth.  None of what happens on the earth as described in those seals can happen until those seals are opened, and they are opened by Him. Ergo, all the events are at and under His control.  He is the first cause.  So they all fall under what could be called "wrath".  And it is the final realization of that fact that these events are part of that, which leads those on the earth to proclaim that the wrath of the Lamb has come.

 

 

Dispensationalism and replacement theology have no scriptural support.

Think what you want but you are way off on this.

The 'church' really does not exist. The Gentiles have been grafted into the seed of Abraham. What is prophesied is for the seed of Abraham, hence everyone who is in Christ is the partaker in the promises of God. 

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9

There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

The first verse is beloved by all but it always seems the second is just for Jews.

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Gal 3:29

Now we all love this one. We sure want the promises. But then we seem to distance ourselves when it comes to any sort of curse or trouble. Curses and trouble are only for the Jewish nation after all not for the western idea of the 'church'. The 'church' is separate, blessed, perfect in all their ways, they have nothing to do with the Jews. According to Paul the only criteria is to be in Christ and then we are counted as the Seed of Abraham. The only group that exists in Christ then is the seed of Abraham. There is no Jew or Gentile as all are one in Christ. All of Matt 24 then is for those in Christ: You and I, and everyone else who calls on the name of Jesus and confesses Jesus is the Lord.