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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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12 hours ago, OldCoot said:

That would be correct except for the following...

Romans 8:1 (NKJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

While individual chastisement by the Father is shown to be a part of the Christian experience when one gets out of line, there is no corporate chastisement by the Father shown in scripture that will befall the unique Body of Messiah that started in Acts 2, unlike corporate Israel had chastisement and punishment that fell on even those who were faithful.   Both corporate Israel and gentiles have the promise of group focused chastisement from the Lord.  Not the unique Body of Messiah.

Tribulation is general is a part of the Christian experience to one degree or another.  But the coming tribulation as a part of driving unbelieving Israel to the wall to get them to recognize their Messiah and accept Him is not.  Again, it is a matter of ecclesiology more than eschatology along with an understanding of what the 70th week and GT period are all about and who is the primary focus.  Even Paul delineates that there are 3 distinct groups now... Israel, Gentiles, and the Church.  The 70th week of Daniel 9 pertaining to his people leaves only Israel and gentiles with Israel the primary focus since it will be incumbent on them to recognize their corporate rejection of Messiah and petition for His return as per the prophet Hosea.

Being the seed of Abraham spiritually does not make us the seed of Abraham physically.  Else all males that are Christian would be required to be circumcised which is a sign of the still in force unconditional Abrahamic Covenant (similarly, while there is no male or female in Messiah, there is a physical distinction that remains).   Yet the Jerusalem Council, Peter, Paul all agree that circumcision was not required of gentiles coming to faith in the Messiah. Acts 15.   And James also had Paul take an offering to the temple for the Nazarite Vow to prove that he did not teach Hebrews living in the diaspora to forsake the requirements of being a physical seed of Abraham.  Acts 21

And the curses of Leviticus 26 were to national Israel as part of the Mosaic Covenant which was made with them.  Paul, James, and Peter, yet again are very clear that gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua are not part of the Mosaic Covenant and uniquely specified that they are still under the requirements of the Noahide Covenant. Acts 15.   

So while gentile believers are grafted in the the tree fed by the root of the Patriarch's faith, they are not the tree. And Paul is very clear about that. Romans 11.

Any DNA descendant of Abraham, who does not believe in Jesus as Christ, is NOT ATTACHED to the Olive Tree of Romans 11.

Attachment to that Tree is ABOUT FAITH. 

Sure some of Hebrew descent believed in Jesus.  Those were "natural branches" who were not "broken off" (cut off). 

You seem to want three different groups.  There are really only two - believers and unbelievers.  Those attached to "the Tree", and everyone else.

Paul does say it is easier to graft a "natural" branch BACK onto "the Tree", but that happens only if that "natural branch" comes to faith in Jesus before it completely withers away. 

Paul says they had not fallen beyond recovery (11:11).  They can still be grafted BACK into "the Tree". 

Romans 11:23 "And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."
 

The "remnant" still left of DNA Israel,  "chosen by grace" are those natural branches that stayed attached to the Tree, who were never "broken off for unbelief" (in Jesus).  (11:5).

 

Being "Abraham's Seed" is about faith - not DNA.   Jesus Christ IS Abraham's one Seed.  When we are "in Him" - then we are counted also as Abraham's Seed.   Those NOT "in" the One "Seed", are NOT "Abraham's Seed" (not withstanding Hebrew DNA). 

Galatians 3:16 "The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ." (NIV)

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

 

Paul does say that having Hebrew DNA - that is being raised Hebrew/Israelite does have advantages - informational advantages - a familiarity with the Law and Covenants and prophecies.  That should make it easier to convince someone of Jewish heritage (easier to graft a natural Olive branch back into an Olive Tree). 

Maybe that was the case back in Paul's day.  I wonder if such is the case today.  Most Jews today don't seem to have a deep or enthusiastic grasp of their own Scriptures. 

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

"a departing"

646 avpostasi,a apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}
Meaning:  1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" (KJV)

868 avfi,sthmi aphistemi {af-is'-tay-mee}
Meaning:  1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove 1a) to excite to revolt 2) to stand off, to stand aloof 2a) to go away, to depart from anyone 2b) to desert, withdraw from one 2c) to fall away, become faithless 2d) to shun, flee from 2e) to cease to vex one 2f) to withdraw one's self from, to fall away 2g) to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

If one "depart from the faith" because he is seduced by demons, does that sound like apostasy or defection from faith? 

 

The "departing" of 2Thess 2:3 is not departing from this earth.  It is departing from faith.  

 

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2 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

"a departing"

646 avpostasi,a apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}
Meaning:  1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" (KJV)

868 avfi,sthmi aphistemi {af-is'-tay-mee}
Meaning:  1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove 1a) to excite to revolt 2) to stand off, to stand aloof 2a) to go away, to depart from anyone 2b) to desert, withdraw from one 2c) to fall away, become faithless 2d) to shun, flee from 2e) to cease to vex one 2f) to withdraw one's self from, to fall away 2g) to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

If one "depart from the faith" because he is seduced by demons, does that sound like apostasy or defection from faith? 

 

The "departing" of 2Thess 2:3 is not departing from this earth.  It is departing from faith.  

 

You realize that your taking of a Strong's reference is but one man's interpretation of the word?   How is it that Jerome, `1400 years earlier used "discessio" to translate apostasia?  Did the man who grew up and was immersed in the Greek language know less than a man in the 1800's not culturally immersed in the Greek language?  

ne quis vos seducat ullo modo quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis

And discessio has the connotation of a physical distancing as opposed to a spiritual distancing.

And how is it that every English translation prior to the KJV also determined that apostasia means departure as did Jerome?   The Wycliff Bible (1384), the Tyndale Bible (1526), the Coverdale Bible (1535), the Cranmer Bible (1539), the Beeches Bible (1576), the Geneva Bible (1577, 1599, 1608).

As did Dr. Kenneth Wuest (1893 - 1961) who served as chair of New Testament Greek for several decades at Moody Bible Institute.  As does Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary.  As does Dr. Ken Johnson, a recognized scholar specializing in ancient and early church documents.

The root is apo, which has a meaning of distance.  Even James Strong got that right.  As to why he didn't maintain the standard, who knows.  

And there have been many "falling aways" of the last 2000 years.  Ever read about the "dark / middle ages"?  To make a "falling away" a unique marker that precedes the revealing of the man of sin is not justified.  Paul uses the definite article in the passage to denote a singular, unique event that must precede the man of sin being revealed.  And Paul ties it to the "our gathering unto the Lord" in the first verse.  To state that Paul started the passage topic about our gathering to the Lord and then switches tense to our departing from the Lord to bolster his case violates even basic grade school grammar, especially since Paul is refuting a false letter that had been wrongfully distributed claiming to be from him.  Hardly the style of one of the most learned individuals of his day who wrote the definitive outline of Christian systematic theology.

But you are free to disagree.  

I would contend that a falling away is not in view.  I am not convinced a "falling away" as many understand it will be a major characteristic of the end period. What we see going on is not a "falling away", but a total rejection of the Gospel by many, especially in the western world.  I can see a "falling away" of those who have accepted a false gospel.   I see no real evidence that a falling away from the true Gospel is what is happening or will happen.  I see true believers every day holding fast to what they have placed their trust in, the Messiah.  In fact, look at many areas where Christians are being persecuted.... China, Sudan, N. Korea, et al... and one sees a very vibrant group of believers that are holding fast under extreme pressure..  and growing exponentially.   It is said that the Chinese believers will be the largest group of Christians in the next few years at the rate they are going.   Even in Iran as we discuss this, people are starting to accept the Gospel in great numbers.   A place where one will lose their head if caught.   Now how could that be perceived as a "falling away"?   

I think many view such passages thru a western lens and see the decline of Christianity in the west as a "falling away".  it is not a falling away but an outright rejection.  One cannot fall away from something they have not accepted.  The West is not departing from the faith, the West is declining to accept it.

 

 

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On 1/12/2020 at 2:30 AM, OldCoot said:

 

Quote

He didn't put "mansions for us in heaven"; He put them in the New Jerusalem! And, after the Millennium, the New Jerusalem COMES HERE! See how it works?

I don't.  Since Yeshua seems to make it pretty clear that the mansions/chambers/rooms etc are being prepared at the Father's house....

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Shalom, OldCoot.

The question is simply this: What KIND of a house is "my Father's house"? Look at Revelation 21:1-4 and then we'll look at those verses in the Greek:

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (sky) and a new earth (ground/land): for the first heaven (sky) and the first earth (ground/land) were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky; hence, it lands), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Now, here's the Greek:

Apokalupsis Ieesou Christou 21:1-4

1 Kai eidon ouranon kainon kai geen kaineen; ho gar prootos ouranos kai hee prootee gee apeelthan, kai hee thalassa ouk estin eti. 2 Kai teen polin teen hagian Ierousaleem kaineen eidon katabainousan ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou, heetoimasmeneen too andri autees. 3 Kai eekousa foonees megalees ek tou thronou, legousees,

"Idou! Hee skeenee tou Theou meta toon anthroopoon, kai skeenoosei met' autoon, kai autoi laoi autou esontai, kai autos ho Theos met' autoon estai, autoon Theos, 4 kai exaleipsei pan dakruon ek toon ofthalmoon autoon, kai ho thanatos ouk estai eti, oute penthos oute kraugee oute ponos ouk estai eti; hoti ta proota apeelthan."

1 Kai = 1 And
eidon = I-saw
ouranon = a-sky
kainon = new
kai = and
geen = an-earth/land/ground
kaineen; = new;
ho = the
gar = for
prootos = first
ouranos = sky
kai = and
hee = the
prootee = first
gee = earth/land/ground
apeelthan, = had-passed-by-and-away
kai = and
hee = the
thalassa = sea
ouk = no/not
estin = was-there
eti. = anymore.
2 Kai = 2 And
teen = the
polin = city
teen = the
hagian = holy/clean/singled-out
Ierousaleem = Yerushalayim/Jerusalem
kaineen = new
eidon = I-saw
katabainousan = descending/coming-down
ek = out
tou = of-the
ouranou = sky
apo = away-from
tou = the
Theou, = God,

heetoimasmeneen =having-been-prepared
too = for-the
andri = husband
autees. = of-her.
3 Kai = 3 And
eekousa = I heard
foonees = a-voice
megalees = loud
ek = out
tou = of-the
thronou, = throne,
legousees, = saying,

"Idou! = "Look!/Behold!
Hee = The
skeenee = tabernacle/Bedouin-tent
tou = of-the
Theou = God
meta = with
toon = the
anthroopoon, = men,
kai = and
skeenoosei = He-shall-tabernacle/He-shall-tent
met' = with
autoon, = them,

kai = and
autoi = they
laoi = people
autou = of-Him/His
esontai, = shall-be,
kai = and
autos = He
ho = the
Theos = God
met' = with
autoon = them
estai, = shall-be,
autoon = of-them/their
Theos, = God,
4 kai = 4 and
exaleipsei = He-shall-wipe-away
pan = all/every
dakruon = teardrop
ek = out
toon = of-the
ofthalmoon = eyes
autoon, = of-them/their,
kai = and
ho = the
thanatos = death
ouk = no/not
estai = shall-be
eti, = anymore,
oute = neither/nor
penthos = mourning
oute = neither/nor
kraugee = an-outcry
oute = neither/nor
ponos = hard-labor/toil/suffering
ouk = no/not
estai = shall-be
eti; = anymore;
hoti = because
ta = the
proota = first-things
apeelthan." = have-gone-away."

And, such a Bedouin tent is seen in Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

The Greek is...

Pros Hebraious 11:8-10

8 Pistei kaloumenos Abraam hupeekousen exelthein eis topon hon eemellen lambanein eis kleeronomian, kai exeelthen mee epistamenos pou erchetai. 9 Pistei parookeesen eis geen tees epaggelias hoos allotrian, en skeenais katoikeesas meta Isaak kai Iakoob toon sugkleeronomoon tees epaggelias tees autees; 10 exedecheto gar teen tous themelious echousan polin, hees technitees kai deemiourgos ho Theos.

8 Pistei = 8 By-faith
kaloumenos = being-called
Abraam = Avraham/Abraham
hupeekousen = obeyed
exelthein = to-go-out
eis = into
topon = a-place
hon = that
eemellen = he-was-going
lambanein = to-receive
eis = into
kleeronomian, = an-inheritance,
kai = and
exeelthen = went-out
mee = not
epistamenos = knowing
pou = where
erchetai. = he-was-going.
9 Pistei = 9 By-faith
parookeesen = he-sojourned
eis = into
geen = a-land
tees = of-the
epaggelias = promise
hoos = like/as
allotrian, = a-foreign-(land)
en = in
skeenais = Bedouin-tents
katoikeesas = to-settle
meta = with
Isaak = Yitschaq/Isaac
kai = and
Iakoob = Ya`aqov/Jacob

toon = the
sugkleeronomoon = joint-heirs
tees = of-the
epaggelias = promise
tees = of-the
autees; = same;
10 exedecheto = 10 he-was-awaiting
gar = for
teen = the
tous = the
themelious = foundations
echousan = having
polin, = city,
hees = of-that-which
technitees = architect
kai = and
deemiourgos = builder
ho = the
Theos. = God.

So, just as Abraham lived with Isaac and Jabob in a Bedouin tent - their HOUSE, so the New Jerusalem is God's "Bedouin tent" - HIS HOUSE! And, it is THERE that Yeshua` has been building all of us "monai" or "ROOMS," translated as "MANSIONS!"

Simply LOOK at the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22! Don't you think it sounds like how many people say "Heaven" is described? "Pearly gates," "golden streets," "walls of jasper," .... Need we go on? There's no "Heaven"; it's the NEW JERUSALEM that we expect!

On 1/12/2020 at 2:30 AM, OldCoot said:

And Isaiah 26, which prefaces itself as at the beginning of the birth pains as mentioned by Jeremiah...

Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Isaiah 26:17 (NKJV) As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O Lord.

And it is the same context that Isaiah says the righteous are hidden, in accordance with Zephaniah....

Zephaniah 2:3 (NKJV) Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.

Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

So no, I don't concur with your assessment that these mansions/chambers/rooms etc are part of the New Jerusalem after the Millenium.  One would have to present a lot of sciptural support for that to outweigh the above references.

Well, I suppose one could argue that these mansions/chambers/rooms could be the New Jerusalem as it sits in Heaven, but not as you assert after it has come to the earth.  Especially since the saints who are there return with the Lord when He comes to establish the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom.

Jude 1:14-15 (NKJV) Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

And that judgment mentioned is the judgement of both Israel (Ezekiel 20:37-38) and the nations (Joel 3:2, Matthew 25:31-46) at the end of the Tribulation Period, at the point where the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom starts.

The 1000-year Messianic Kingdom is when the Messiah reigns as King and King of kings! One of the jobs of being king is to be a JUDGE. Do you really think the King will be idle during that ONE THOUSAND YEARS?! He will be judging THROUGHOUT the Millennium, not just at the end!

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5 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Nope!  Wrong again.  I was NOT ASSUMING such. 

Why don't you just ASK ME, if I'm "assuming" something.  I'll tell you if an assumption is built in to my conclusions. 

Why ASSUME I'm assuming?

Shalom, Resurrection Priest.

I didn't say that you assumed ON PURPOSE. People FREQUENTLY assume much without realizing that they did so! Please don't take offense; I meant no disrespect.

5 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Heaven is the "true" Tabernacle. 

The sky is the "true" Tent? Hmmmm.....

5 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I believe those raised/saved at the Glorious Return will go to Heaven (the "true Tabernacle") where they will live and study and learn and heal - for 1000 years (the 7th millennium).  THEN we will return to our inheritance.  THEN we will begin our work as kings and priests, over "the rest of the dead" who will be resurrected at that time (Rev 20:5). 

In the TYPE, priests were consecrated for 7 days.  They did not begin their priestly ministry UNTIL "the eighth day". 

Leviticus 8:33  "And you shall not go outside the door of the Tabernacle of meeting for seven days, until the days of your consecration are ended.  For seven days He shall consecrate you."

"With the LORD a day is as a thousand years" (2Peter 3:8). 

8th day = 8th millennium

"The woman" (Israel) who gave birth to the male child (Yeshua), won't even be "clean" until "the 8th day".   Remember those childbirth laws?

Don't mix metaphors.

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11 hours ago, Behold said:

Sure it does.  what the NT  doesn't have is the word "dispensations" in it.  But it also does not have the word "trinity", in it.

But a verse does describe it, as part of the process of becoming a sound student of NT doctrines, and the bible in general.

The verse is this..  "study to show thyself approved unto God,......... RIGHTLY DIVIDING"....

The fact is, if you don't understand a few dispensations, and how they work, you'll never be able to understand much in the NT .

The word there......"dividing", it literally means, comprehend the divisions, as seasons, and times, and judgments, seals,   etc.

So, let me give you some simple dispensations.  As these are in fact nothing more then how God was dealing with man, in different ways, at different times..

you'll note that as you read them, you probably already knew this, but didnt realize this is "rightly dividing".....or dispensational teaching.

1.) FROM : Genesis to Moses.    You have NO LAW.  

2.) From MOSES TO CHRIST< you have Law and no Grace.

3.) From Jesus (The Cross), Till the Great Trib, you have the "time of the gentiles", = "not under the law, but under grace". Salvation is a Free Gift

4.) From the Trib to the Millennium ....... everything changes again, regarding how God deals with man.

And there are more....

Where the problem come is, is with Hyper Dispensationalism.

Where WISDOM comes in, is when God shows you how to not be one of those, and why not to be one of those.  

Hi, 

The idea of dispensationalism is a false one and always has been. When Paul wrote this, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness." to Timothy it's apparent he is comparing the word of truth to vain babblings, and not to times and seasons. You could be correct about times and seasons or the course of creation and the interaction between God and man, but 2 Tim 2:15 doesn't prove it. The word for rightly divide, and it's definition follows:

'3718 orthotoméō(from temnō, "to cut" and 3717 /orthós, "straight") – properly, cut straight (on a straight line), i.e. "rightly divide" (correctly apportion).'

This is about correct understanding and application, not dividing up vague and incomprehensible periods of time. Paul is telling Timothy, all of us, to work hard and learn to handle correctly the Word and teach rightly.

When I first learned there was a time with no law, therefore sin is not imputed, it amazed me. Instantly I felt a sense of deep respect and admiration for the Lord. It's a perfectly just stance. How can one transgress when there is nothing to violate? And how can there be sin if one does not know what constitutes sin? That is fair, just and loving, don't you agree? Of course that isn't the whole story. Moses was in trouble for murder and had to flee. Cain too. He had to be protected from retaliation. Those are just two examples.

It has always been grace and this is where the idea of any dispensationalism of any stripe disintegrates. All flesh was found evil in the sight of the Lord before the flood. Only Noah found favor in God's eyes. The term used is 'chen: favor, grace'. Even before the Law came into existence grace was required for salvation. Noah could not have followed OT law as it didn't exist.

David said:

"15O Lord, open my lips,
And my mouth shall show forth Your praise.
16For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—"

This is an OT witness to repentance and grace. Notice how David tells us God has no delight in burnt offering. Isaiah 1 and Hosea 6 say the same thing, from the lips of God himself. I fail to see then how the Law saves anyone since even the blood sacrifice and burnt offerings do not please God, but a broken spirit and a broken and contrite heart do. As Paul concludes so do I, the Law did not save anyone, it is death. Only the grace of God saves, just like that same grace saved Noah. There are so many more examples in the OT of people relying on the grace of God both before and after Moses. The Law imputes sin only and does not save but condemns; Romans 7:13-24. 

If the Law is only death then how was David justified? By grace and grace alone. Him and many others. If that isn't true how then were those in the graves risen when Jesus was resurrected; seeing how the Law cannot justify?

Dispensationalism is just mind numbing propaganda of the western christian church; designed to exalt one group and condemn another, it's division and therefore to be dismissed.

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23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Disagree on first, agree on second.   Dispensation as you might understand the concept may not be in scripture, but that doesn't negate that the idea is in scripture.

Ephesians 1:10 (NKJV) that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Ephesians 3:2 (NKJV) if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

The covenants given throughout the OT exhibit dispensation.  The Adamic Covenant, the laws were very limited in scope and the revealing of God was minimal.  the Noahide Covenant, more laws were brought in as requirements and there was more revealing of the nature of God.   With the Abrahamic Covenant, even more reveling of the nature and plan of God was brought out.  With the Davidic Covenant, yet again, more of the nature and plan of God was revealed.  Each is a dispensation. 

Those are just examples and not a conclusive list by far.

So dispensation is a scriptural concept.  Even if someone refuses to believe it, which probably has more to do with misunderstanding the concept at best.

Except Paul was speaking of stewardship in these passages; not of a change in interactions such as a switch from Law to Grace. The idea of stewardship is correct here any other idea is not as salvation has always been by the grace of God through Christ Jesus, from the beginning.

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23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

That would be correct except for the following...

Romans 8:1 (NKJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

While individual chastisement by the Father is shown to be a part of the Christian experience when one gets out of line, there is no corporate chastisement by the Father shown in scripture that will befall the unique Body of Messiah that started in Acts 2, unlike corporate Israel had chastisement and punishment that fell on even those who were faithful.   Both corporate Israel and gentiles have the promise of group focused chastisement from the Lord.  Not the unique Body of Messiah.

"because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."" - Hebrews 12

My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline, and do not resent his rebuke, 12because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in." - Proverbs 3

The 'unique body of Messiah'. All his sons and daughters, corporately and individually.

For the 100,000 of the members of the unique body of Messiah that die every year for His word and the the testimony they hold, where is their 'rapture'? 

23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 Even Paul delineates that there are 3 distinct groups now... Israel, Gentiles, and the Church.  

There is Israel the land and then believers and unbelievers, not three types of believers.

23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Being the seed of Abraham spiritually does not make us the seed of Abraham physically. 

Wrong. "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And the curses of Leviticus 26 were to national Israel as part of the Mosaic Covenant which was made with them.  Paul, James, and Peter, yet again are very clear that gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua are not part of the Mosaic Covenant and uniquely specified that they are still under the requirements of the Noahide Covenant. Acts 15.   

Textual butchery.

23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

So while gentile believers are grafted in the the tree fed by the root of the Patriarch's faith, they are not the tree. And Paul is very clear about that. Romans 11.

Then you don't know what grafting is. The new branch literally becomes part of the tree. Paul says only that the Gentiles were not of the original tree, not that the Gentiles did not become one with the tree, therefore of the tree. The Tree is the faith of Christ, He is the holy root. The olive tree is not Israel, it's the Godhead.

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On 1/13/2020 at 5:49 PM, Resurrection Priest said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ( KJV)

What "day" is "that day" ?  Just back up one verse.

 2 Thessalonians 2:2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (NAS)

"that day" is "the day of the LORD". 

2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." (NKJ)

Doesn't sound like we will be raptured off the earth BEFORE the DAY the earth is burned. 

I personally believe the 7 bowl plagues will be "poured out" ON THE DAY that Christ returns in glory.  We are removed first, then the last plagues are poured out - ON THAT DAY.

"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day."  (Rev. 18:8)

If it's like Sodom, Lot and family were pulled out of the city by angels just ahead of the fire coming down.  SAME DAY.

Jeremiah said he was shown "the earth" AFTER the "great day of the LORD".  

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light." 

I personally am of the opinion that this earth will be desolate and uninhabited for at least a good part of the 7th millennium. 

According to Jeremiah, desolation for the earth IS "rest".   (Lev 26:23-25)

We will be in "the Father's House".  We won't return to our inheritance to resume work, until "the Jubilee". 

Lest anyone say that "the earth" is only "the land" promised to Abraham's seed:

Hebrews 1:10 He also says, "In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment." (NIV)

The "earth" that "will perish" is the same one created "in the beginning". 

Shalom, Resurrection Priest.

Your questions can be answered if you change your view a little on "the day of the Lord."

First, the phrase is NOT unique to the day you're talking about. There have been other "days of the LORD."

Second, the phrase "the day of the Lord" is different than "the day of the LORD." In Hebrew, "Lord" in the KJV refers to the word "Adonay" and "LORD" refers to the word "YHWH," haShem, the Name! The first refers to "the day of Jesus Christ" or "the day of Yeshua` the Messiah." The second refers to "the day of YHWH" or "the day of God the Father!"

Third, "the day of the Lord" is not restricted to a 24-hour period at the end of the Millennium (AND especially NOT the beginning of the "eighth Millennium"). The "sun of righteousness" will shine for a THOUSAND YEARS! Since a year is 365.2422 days, that's a (1000 x 365.2422 x 24)-hour period! Remember: Kefa ("Peter") told us,

2 Peter 3:8-10 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which (Greek: en hee = "in the-[one]") the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

He wasn't saying that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" in a 24-hour period! He was saying that it would happen within a 1000-year period!

Specifically, according to Yochanan ("John"), this happens at the END of the 1000-year period, not at the beginning! HaSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy") must be released from his prison first!

Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Edited by Retrobyter
Sorry. I meant "hour" not "day."
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5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Hi, 

The idea of dispensationalism is a false one and always has been.

I just showed you 4.

Nothing false about them..

I appreciate that you have been taught that this word has negative connotations, and as i said, you can't rightly divide the bible, unless you understand some basic dispensations.

Here are 2 dispensations that you might consider using.

The Old Testament.

The New Testament.

Did you notice they are not the same?

If you've not yet realized this, then consider these as your intro into the  reality of "studying to show yourself approved, "rightly DIVIDING".

Let me know if i can help with anything else.

 

 

shalom

Edited by Behold
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