Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Resurrection Priest]

15 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And discessio has the connotation of a physical distancing as opposed to a spiritual distancing.

I agree there can be two types of distancing - physical and spiritual.  But I think the spiritual very often leads to the physical.  Both can happen in this world.

Someone who no longer believes, also does not want to attend church or fellowship meetings, or study meetings.  He would not hang out in the same places to be with them, 'cause they always talk about Jesus.

Hebrews 3:12-14  “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from (#868) the living God;  but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

To "depart" from something (whether a belief or a fellowship) you have to start out there.  You cannot "depart" from a place, where you've never been (spiritually or physically).

Are we talking about the rapture, or about the "once saved - always saved" doctrine" ?

[Resurrection Priest]

On 1/13/2020 at 4:36 AM, OldCoot said:

Disagree on first, agree on second.   Dispensation as you might understand the concept may not be in scripture, but that doesn't negate that the idea is in scripture.

Ephesians 1:10 (NKJV) that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Ephesians 3:2 (NKJV) if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

The covenants given throughout the OT exhibit dispensation.  The Adamic Covenant, the laws were very limited in scope and the revealing of God was minimal.  the Noahide Covenant, more laws were brought in as requirements and there was more revealing of the nature of God.   With the Abrahamic Covenant, even more reveling of the nature and plan of God was brought out.  With the Davidic Covenant, yet again, more of the nature and plan of God was revealed.  Each is a dispensation. 

Those are just examples and not a conclusive list by far.

So dispensation is a scriptural concept.  Even if someone refuses to believe it, which probably has more to do with misunderstanding the concept at best.

I can certainly see the different covenants, sequentially through from Eden to Ezekiel 36 (New Covenant).  I separate things by covenants. 

I can see the use of the word "dispensation" as simply another way of explaining time periods, but the dispensations are mostly paired to the covenants. 

Why use the word "dispensations" instead of "covenants"? 

Romans 9:4 "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;"

I don't know of a covenant made specifically with Gentiles, except maybe the LORD's covenant with the earth, promising never again a universal flood.   There are some prophecies/promises concerning descendants of Ishmael and Esau, but I wouldn't call those "covenants".

Even the "New Covenant" is made with Israel.  One must be "grafted in" to Israel, in order to partake of that Covenant. 

[Resurrection Priest]

Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV)

7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The see the human enemies "devoured" by fire from God - killed instantly.

THEN I see Satan (? his demons too) cast into the Lake of Fire, where THEY are tormented "unto the age of the ages."

I don't see human beings continuously tormented "unto the age of the ages".  Just spirit beings - Satan and his angels.  The Lake of Fire was "prepared for the Devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41).  Right?

I do agree that some humans will eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire.  I just believe the spirit beings will last much longer.  It is probable the Lake of Fire is the only thing that can contain those spirit beings. 

I also believe this earth - when it is "burned up" - will be turned into a sea of fire - real literal "fire", when "the elements will melt with fervent heat". 

[OldCoot]

37 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Why use the word "dispensations" instead of "covenants"? 

I guess the better question would be, why should one kowtow to the Orwellian mindset that has turned a legitimate word into a perjorative?   The dictionary and traditional usage of dispensation is apropos.  

 

[Resurrection Priest]

8 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I guess the better question would be, why should one kowtow to the Orwellian mindset that has turned a legitimate word into a perjorative?   The dictionary and traditional usage of dispensation is apropos.  

 

"Orwellian mindset" ?  Didn't get that. 

I thought "covenant Theology" IS apropos, when talking Bible.  

[OldCoot]

10 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

"Orwellian mindset" ?  Didn't get that. 

I thought "covenant Theology" IS apropos, when talking Bible.  

Read "1984" by George Orwell.  One of the key aspects was how words would be twisted to mean something other than what they originally meant.  "gay" is a good example.  To make "dispensation" some sort of negative or pejorative is doing the same thing.  I won't fall for the game, and I feel no compelling need to use a different word just because some might be offended in some way with the word "dispensation".

Edited January 14, 2020 by OldCoot

[JoeCanada]

20 hours ago, OldCoot said:

You realize that your taking of a Strong's reference is but one man's interpretation of the word?   How is it that Jerome, `1400 years earlier used "discessio" to translate apostasia?  Did the man who grew up and was immersed in the Greek language know less than a man in the 1800's not culturally immersed in the Greek language?  

ne quis vos seducat ullo modo quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis

And discessio has the connotation of a physical distancing as opposed to a spiritual distancing.

And how is it that every English translation prior to the KJV also determined that apostasia means departure as did Jerome?   The Wycliff Bible (1384), the Tyndale Bible (1526), the Coverdale Bible (1535), the Cranmer Bible (1539), the Beeches Bible (1576), the Geneva Bible (1577, 1599, 1608).

As did Dr. Kenneth Wuest (1893 - 1961) who served as chair of New Testament Greek for several decades at Moody Bible Institute.  As does Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary.  As does Dr. Ken Johnson, a recognized scholar specializing in ancient and early church documents.

The root is apo, which has a meaning of distance.  Even James Strong got that right.  As to why he didn't maintain the standard, who knows.  

And there have been many "falling aways" of the last 2000 years.  Ever read about the "dark / middle ages"?  To make a "falling away" a unique marker that precedes the revealing of the man of sin is not justified.  Paul uses the definite article in the passage to denote a singular, unique event that must precede the man of sin being revealed.  And Paul ties it to the "our gathering unto the Lord" in the first verse.  To state that Paul started the passage topic about our gathering to the Lord and then switches tense to our departing from the Lord to bolster his case violates even basic grade school grammar, especially since Paul is refuting a false letter that had been wrongfully distributed claiming to be from him.  Hardly the style of one of the most learned individuals of his day who wrote the definitive outline of Christian systematic theology.

But you are free to disagree.  

I would contend that a falling away is not in view.  I am not convinced a "falling away" as many understand it will be a major characteristic of the end period. What we see going on is not a "falling away", but a total rejection of the Gospel by many, especially in the western world.  I can see a "falling away" of those who have accepted a false gospel.   I see no real evidence that a falling away from the true Gospel is what is happening or will happen.  I see true believers every day holding fast to what they have placed their trust in, the Messiah.  In fact, look at many areas where Christians are being persecuted.... China, Sudan, N. Korea, et al... and one sees a very vibrant group of believers that are holding fast under extreme pressure..  and growing exponentially.   It is said that the Chinese believers will be the largest group of Christians in the next few years at the rate they are going.   Even in Iran as we discuss this, people are starting to accept the Gospel in great numbers.   A place where one will lose their head if caught.   Now how could that be perceived as a "falling away"?   

I think many view such passages thru a western lens and see the decline of Christianity in the west as a "falling away".  it is not a falling away but an outright rejection.  One cannot fall away from something they have not accepted.  The West is not departing from the faith, the West is declining to accept it.

 

 

Hey OC,

Well, I'll not try and convince anyone on what apostasia means. I don't think that a team of Belgian Draft Horses could pull someone off of their strongly held beliefs. 

But I will say this. 

To some, "apostasia" might give the impression that it refers to leaving say, an organization, a church.  But "apostasia" means "to depart from truth"! A person can remain in an organization, a church, and be departing from the truth all along. It points to a deliberate abandonment of a former professed belief.

Look at what Paul says in 2Thes 2:9-12:

"The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

In 1Tim 4:1.....the context denotes a departure or apostasy from the faith,  the revealed truth of God.

'Nuf said!

-----------------------------

Now then, I have a question:

Acts 3:21 states that Jesus MUST stay in heaven until the times of restitution of all things, which includes the restoration of the theocracy under David's son, which obviously can't begin before or during antichrist's reign. So, the question is: How can there be a pre-trib rapture if Jesus MUST stay in heaven until the times of restitution of all things?

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

The teaching that "the Church" will be raptured prior to the tribulation of "Israel"for 7 years, depends upon separating Israel from "the Church" - making them two separate groups.   But they are NOT two separate groups. 

"Israel" IS "the congregation" of the LORD.    Israel IS "the Church".    "The Church" IS  "Israel". 

Individuals are "cut off" or "broken off" from Israel (because of unbelief),   and others are "grafted in" to Israel.   But ISRAEL is still the body - the congregation of the LORD. 

The New Jerusalem has 12 gates named for the 12 tribes, and 12 foundations for the 12 Apostles.   12 x 12.   But it's ONE CITY. 

There is no 13th gate - with a sign "Gentiles Enter Here".  

There was no 13th loaf of "Gentiles Bread".  

No.  It's just ONE BODY - ONE BRIDE. 

[Resurrection Priest]

The rapture teaching says that God saves people in different ways, during different dispensations.  John Nelson Darby was the first to teach this.

He said the Jews were saved by works of the law, and "the Church" is saved by grace. 

During "the tribulation" - the Jews will once again be saved by works of the law, because their Temple will be standing and the sacrifices will again be offered by Levite priests.

But Paul says,   “For by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Galatians 2:16.  "No flesh" would include all Jews. 

Our God has always “saved” individuals in the SAME WAY -  By grace - through faith.      
    Persons from the Fall to the Cross looked FORWARD to Christ, when they offered a sacrifice.        
    Persons since the Cross, look BACK to Jesus’ death at Calvary when they are “baptized into His death”, and when they eat the “bread” and drink the “wine”.  

John 14:6 [Jesus speaking] “No one comes to the Father except through me.”  "No one" would include all Jews too.

[Resurrection Priest]

John Darby believed that Daniel’s "people" were only the Jews.  Daniel may have assumed the same, upon hearing the prophecy.  But Daniel did not anticipate that Messiah would one day command the inclusion of all Gentile believers.  In light of that command, I believe the prophecy includes all of Israel - which includes those “grafted in” through the “circumcision of Christ” - NOT simply DNA descendants of Jacob.  

        KEEP IN MIND: According to Darby, the 70 weeks applied only to Jews.