Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Resurrection Priest]

        Darby reasoned that Jesus was put to death at the end of the 69th “week” of years. By that reckoning Jesus should return 7 years later, to set up His kingdom on the earth. To explain why Jesus did not return 7 years after His death,  Darby said that the 70th week was delayed.  This was called “the postponement theory.”  

        According to Darby, the prophetic timetable was suspended when the Jews rejected their Messiah.  The long “Church Age” had begun, during which time Christ would build up His “heavenly people.”  Darby called this “the times of the Gentiles” (Luke 21:24).

    According to Darby:
    Sixty nine “weeks” ended with the death of Jesus.  
    The 70th week is delayed.
    The 70th “week” will begin with “the rapture of the Church”.
    At the rapture, the Church will be removed from this earth, to Heaven.   
    God will then go back to saving Jews by “works of the law”.  
    He will go back to a previous “dispensation”.  

 To be saved by “works of the Law” (if that were possible) you must have a Temple and sacrifices.  So now you understand why many Christians support geopolitical Israel, and want Jews to recover control of the Temple Mount. 

Jews of course, want control of the Mount, because they understand from the Old Testament prophecies, that Messiah must come to the Temple.  They must have a Temple, so their Messiah can come.  Orthodox Jews also believe they can only receive “atonement” as a nation, through an Aaronic priest, by an animal sacrifice.

[Resurrection Priest]

Daniel 9:24-28 “Seventy weeks [sevens] are determined for your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
 
        “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince (or an anointed prince), there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.  And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself (or: and have nothing);" 

(Satan was an anointed cherub that covers.) 

"And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."  (The people of Jesus Christ did not destroy the City. Rome did.) 

"The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.  Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;  But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolator.” (NKJ)

Question:

 When was the command issued “to restore and to build Jerusalem” ?  

 Do we look to the command issued anciently by Cyrus or Artaxerxes, which freed the Jews to return to their land, and to rebuild their Temple after the captivity in Babylon? 

If this prophecy is for “the latter days” or “the time of the end”, then why look to this ancient command?

The prophet Daniel was told to “shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end” (Dan 12:4).  The messenger said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end” (Dan 12:9). 

What makes us think we can clearly understand this prophecy - yet?

Do we look to the United Nations recognition of Israel as a nation in 1948? 

Do we look for another command in the very last days?  

If Iran gets a nuclear weapon and destroys Jerusalem, then another command to rebuild may be forthcoming.   The entire 70 weeks may belong to the last days.  
        
 We have at least two possibilities.  Maybe three.

Just saying . . .

[Resurrection Priest]

Daniel 9:24-28 “Seventy weeks [sevens] are determined for your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation (atonement) for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

The Most Holy Place was anointed on the Day of Atonement, thus making "atonement" for Israel.  In Revelation Cpt 8, John saw a messenger standing at the Golden Alter with a golden censer, offering incense.  The golden censer was only ever handled by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement.  Interesting.  So this prophecy may be fulfilled at the very end of this age, just prior to our Lord's glorious return. 

How long is a “seven” ?

The Hebrew word translated “week” in Daniel 9:27 is shabuwa` (Strong’s #07620). 

The meaning, according to Strong’s Concordance is “seven” - a period of 7 days, or of 7 years.  

Another more obscure meaning connects the word with the Feast of Weeks (also known as Tabernacles) -  a 7 day feast, which took place each Fall.

If one day is equal to one year, then “seventy sevens” would be  490 years (Exo 23:10-11, Lev 25:3-4).  

If one week equals 7 literal days, then “seventy sevens” would be 490 literal days (1 year, 4 months, 10 days).  

If one “seven” is one Feast of Tabernacles, then 70 of those feasts, would take place within a period of 70 years.

        NOTE: The nation known today as Israel, was 70 years old in 2018.  So that eliminates the 70 literal year fulfillment of the 70 "sevens". 

You can see, we have at least two other possibilities.      

 

[Resurrection Priest]

Daniel 7:21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them UNTIL . . . the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.”

    Daniel 7:25  [Speaking of the Little Horn] “He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change time law.  Then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time.”

        The prophecy of Revelation Chapter 13 parallels the prophecy of Daniel Cpt 7.  

    Revelation 13:3-8 [Speaking of the Beast with seven heads and ten horns] “And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.  So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, ‘Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?’  And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.  Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.  It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.  All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (NKJ)

 “Time, times and a part” - 42 months - 1260 days, it’s all the same time period.  All the prophecies point to events at the end of this age.  Daniel asks WHEN the persecution will end.  The answer to his question is in Daniel 12:7. 

 Daniel 12:7 "The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, 'It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.'" (NIV)

The "power of the holy people" is that "power" they received when the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost.  POWER for witness. 

Acts 1:8 "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

When the last "two witnesses" are killed (or imprisoned so they cannot witness), THAT'S WHEN IT'S OVER.  Revelation Cpt 11 

If every witness is either in prison or dead - there can be no more witness for Christ. 

The 2 Witnesses are "killed" by the Beast power.   3.5 days later they are resurrected and called up to heaven.  Their enemies see them ascend. 

 

Of course the prospect of those final days, is fearful.  Our only strength will be Christ Jesus.  If one is called for that time, Jesus will strengthen. 
 

So who are "the saints" mentioned in each of these prophecies?   Are they just Jews?  I don't believe so. 

I believe they are God's people, filled with the "faith of Jesus".

Edited January 15, 2020 by Resurrection Priest

[Retrobyter]

On 1/13/2020 at 6:04 AM, OldCoot said:

That would be correct except for the following...

Romans 8:1 (NKJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

While individual chastisement by the Father is shown to be a part of the Christian experience when one gets out of line, there is no corporate chastisement by the Father shown in scripture that will befall the unique Body of Messiah that started in Acts 2, unlike corporate Israel had chastisement and punishment that fell on even those who were faithful.   Both corporate Israel and gentiles have the promise of group focused chastisement from the Lord.  Not the unique Body of Messiah.

Tribulation is general is a part of the Christian experience to one degree or another.  But the coming tribulation as a part of driving unbelieving Israel to the wall to get them to recognize their Messiah and accept Him is not.  Again, it is a matter of ecclesiology more than eschatology along with an understanding of what the 70th week and GT period are all about and who is the primary focus.  Even Paul delineates that there are 3 distinct groups now... Israel, Gentiles, and the Church.  The 70th week of Daniel 9 pertaining to his people leaves only Israel and gentiles with Israel the primary focus since it will be incumbent on them to recognize their corporate rejection of Messiah and petition for His return as per the prophet Hosea.

Being the seed of Abraham spiritually does not make us the seed of Abraham physically.  Else all males that are Christian would be required to be circumcised which is a sign of the still in force unconditional Abrahamic Covenant (similarly, while there is no male or female in Messiah, there is a physical distinction that remains).   Yet the Jerusalem Council, Peter, Paul all agree that circumcision was not required of gentiles coming to faith in the Messiah. Acts 15.   And James also had Paul take an offering to the temple for the Nazarite Vow to prove that he did not teach Hebrews living in the diaspora to forsake the requirements of being a physical seed of Abraham.  Acts 21

And the curses of Leviticus 26 were to national Israel as part of the Mosaic Covenant which was made with them.  Paul, James, and Peter, yet again are very clear that gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua are not part of the Mosaic Covenant and uniquely specified that they are still under the requirements of the Noahide Covenant. Acts 15.   

So while gentile believers are grafted in the the tree fed by the root of the Patriarch's faith, they are not the tree. And Paul is very clear about that. Romans 11.

Shalom, OldCoot.

First, there are no "dispensations"; a person has ALWAYS been justified by God through His grace, by the blood of a sacrifice, and through faith no matter when that person lived. That has NEVER changed. God's Law - His Torah - is better translated as "Instruction." As Rav Sha'uwl ("Paul") taught, the Torah was NEVER intended to be the means of one's justification. Instead, it was a school teacher to show us that we can NEVER perfectly keep His Torah, and if one offends in one point, he or she is guilty of ALL! Its purpose was to DRIVE an individual to the end of his or her self-sufficiency, and to come humbly to God for the help only He can provide! They had songs to that effect, many written by King David:

Psalm 32:1-2 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David, Maschil.}

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

David knew this to be true and instructed others through song. In fact, the word "maschil" means "from-prudence" or "from-cautiousness" or "from-good-judgment."

Second, there's a REASON for Luke to use the word "ekkleesia" for the congregation of Israel at Mount Sinai!

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV)

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,

"A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear." (Deut. 18:15)

38 This is he, that was in the church (Greek: ekkleesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles (the living words) to give unto us:

The Jews don't need to be grafted into the "Church!" They need to be grafted back into the Kingdom of Israel which existed under the reigns of David and Shlomoh (Solomon) and which will exist again under the reign of Yeshua` haMelekh ("Jesus the King").

As far as punishment for the Gentile believers, read on in Romans 11:

Romans 11:17-24 (KJV)

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 
19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well (Good; Okay); because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Do you think he didn't mean it?) 
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again (suggesting they were already in the tree once). 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

[Sister]

1 hour ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Daniel 12:7 "The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, 'It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.'" (NIV)

Hi Resurrection Priest

Daniel 12:7   And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
 

I think this might be referring to the two witnesses.  They are the only ones given power and are the last two of all the holy men who God has worked through but in the sight of the world. 

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:5   And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

  Revelation 11:6   These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
 

When they are killed and come to life after 3 1/2 days, the third woe comes quickly.  After them, there's no more with power except when Christ comes.  They are the last.

 Revelation 11:14   The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

[OldCoot]

7 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

To some, "apostasia" might give the impression that it refers to leaving say, an organization, a church.  But "apostasia" means "to depart from truth"!

No it does not.

In both noun (apostasia) and verb (aphistemi) form, what the word implies is based on the context it is used.  Just like in English.

It started raining, so Joe ran home.  (verb)

While at the store, I ran into a neighbor.  (verb)

Same word, both in verb form, but entirely different meanings.

I saw Joe yesterday and he said he went on a run. (noun)

My neighbor said he had started his political campaign run.  (noun)

Same word, noun form, but different meanings.

Luke 2:37  and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart (aphistemi) from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. (a physical departure is in view)

1 Timothy 4:1  Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart (aphistemi) from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, (a spiritual departure is in view).

The verb form can mean a spatial departure or a spiritual departure depending on the context.  Likewise, the noun form can mean a spiritual departure or a spatial departure depending on the context.

Acts 21:21  but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.  (a distancing from the Torah of Moses)

2 Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing (apostasia) first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. (no object in the verse to what is being departed from)

There is nothing in this passage to say what is being departed from as in Acts 21:21.  And whether it is the verb form (aphistemi) or the noun form (apostasia), the context determines what the word means, just like the English examples above.  When the context is not mentioned in the verse the word is used, as in the verse above, then it must be determined from the surrounding verses.  

2 Thessalonians 2:1  1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8  He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The context of the entire passage of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is the removal or departure.... the departure that also means the Holy Spirit who restrains is taken out of the way.  Since the believers are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit, for Him to be taken out of the way  by extension means the redeemed who He indwells and seals are also taken out of the way.  Thus the removal of the redeemed.

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

First, there are no "dispensations"; a person has ALWAYS been justified by God through His grace, by the blood of a sacrifice, and through faith no matter when that person lived.

True enough, salvation has always been by grace.  But there has been dispensations that reveal more of the Lord, His plan, His purposes, and His standards.    

The Adamic Covenant was very limited in requirements and revealing of the purpose of the Lord.   Only after the Covenant was broken by Adam's fall did the Lord reveal a Messiah would come from the seed of the woman.

The Noahide Covenant, extended legal requirements were outlined, many of which coincide with much of the 10 Commandments.  It was made with all mankind in view from Noah onward.  Legal requirements regarding murder, no eating of blood,  all living things were fit for food, etc.

The Abrahamic Covenant, the requirement of circumcision was made for Abraham and all his descendants.  That thru Abraham and his descendants, the earth would be blessed, thus revealing more of the purpose and plan of God.  Made only  with Abraham, confirmed to Isaac and Jacob later.  

The Mosaic Covenant, setting the legal and ceremonial standard for the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, establishing them as a unique nation set apart from other nations and be a witness to the nations of the Lord.

The Davidic Covenant, further amplifying the purpose and plan of God by stating that a descendent of David would rule on David's throne or authority forever.  Affirmed again by Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:32.

Each one a dispensation or revealing more of God and His purpose.  This from Merriam-Webster.....

 

 

dis·pen·sa·tion | \ ˌdi-spən-ˈsā-shən  , -ˌspen- \

Definition of dispensation

1a: a general state or ordering of things specifically : a system of revealed commands and promises regulating human affairs a privilege maintained under the new dispensation

b: a particular arrangement or provision especially of providence or nature involving special dispensation by the Church

2a: an exemption from a law or from an impediment, vow, or oath may be granted a dispensation from the rule

b: a formal authorization requested a dispensation to form another lodge

Edited January 15, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

John Darby believed that Daniel’s "people" were only the Jews.  Daniel may have assumed the same, upon hearing the prophecy.  But Daniel did not anticipate that Messiah would one day command the inclusion of all Gentile believers.  In light of that command, I believe the prophecy includes all of Israel - which includes those “grafted in” through the “circumcision of Christ” - NOT simply DNA descendants of Jacob.  

        KEEP IN MIND: According to Darby, the 70 weeks applied only to Jews.  

Then explain how Israel (both houses) are responsible for Yeshua returning to His place with the Father until Israel acknowledges its offense of rejecting Him?   And He states clearly that He will not return until they acknowledge that offense and petition for His return.   Hosea 5:14-15 and Matthew 23:37-39 / Luke 13:34-35.

When did the Church, being Israel as some suppose, reject the Messiah and cause Him to return to His place, especially since He returned to His place before the church was born in Acts 2?   And unlike some seem to think, that the "congregation" mentioned in the OT regarding Israel is the same as the "church" in the NT, Yeshua talks in future tense here....

Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

The tense is a future building of the unique entity called the "church" or "body of Messiah".  Thereby delineating Israel and the Church as unique entities.  Israel as a corporate body must still acknowledge its offense of rejecting Him the first time and turn to Him and petition for His return as the condition of His return.  The church has nothing to do with it.  It rests solely on Israel.

Edited January 15, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Second, there's a REASON for Luke to use the word "ekkleesia" for the congregation of Israel at Mount Sinai!

Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Future tense, yet to happen, not an extension or continuation.  Israel as a congregation or ekklesia (called out assembly) is not the Church.  They are distinct entities.   

ἐκκλησία
STRONG’S NUMBER: g1577
Dictionary Definition g1577. ἐκκλησία ekklēsia; from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): — assembly, church.
AV (118) - church 115, assembly 3;
a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating, the assembly of the Israelites, any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously, in a Christian sense an assembly of Christians gathered...