Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Behold said:

I just showed you 4.

Nothing false about them..

I appreciate that you have been taught that this word has negative connotations, and as i said, you can't rightly divide the bible, unless you understand some basic dispensations.

Here are 2 dispensations that you might consider using.

The Old Testament.

The New Testament.

Did you notice they are not the same?

If you've not yet realized this, then consider these as your intro into the  reality of "studying to show yourself approved, "rightly DIVIDING".

Let me know if i can help with anything else.

 

 

shalom

There is no difference in the OT and the NT. Where do you think the NT came from? Who dictated the OT? The same Jesus who is the same yesterday, today and forever. Do you realize the preaching by Paul is nearly 100% from the OT and the revelation on the road to Damascus? Jesus quoted the OT many, many times. The OT foretold all that would happen in the life and death of Jesus. 

The NT did not exist when Paul preached, traveled, and wrote letters. When Paul commended the Bereans for searching the scriptures daily to prove the truth of what Paul said, do you imagine they grabbed a KJV? No. All the Bereans had was the old testament to use to prove the truth of Paul's words and ideas. Where do you suppose the Apostles got the info to write their letters? Revelation and Christ to be sure, but their letter are filled with truth from the OT. Therefore the NT is proven to be born of the OT and is the OT revealed. 

When you do not finish the quote or post the entire quote for context it's a failure in communication. Using two words of quote that are part of a larger context and ignoring that context is like looking at blade of grass and claiming its a forest.

" Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

It's proper handling of the Word, not the dividing of time. Dispensationalism is a farce.

 

[Justin Adams]

Oh yeah brother...oh YEAH.

[Resurrection Priest]

12 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Resurrection Priest

Daniel 12:7   And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
 

I think this might be referring to the two witnesses.  They are the only ones given power and are the last two of all the holy men who God has worked through but in the sight of the world. 

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:5   And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

  Revelation 11:6   These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
 

When they are killed and come to life after 3 1/2 days, the third woe comes quickly.  After them, there's no more with power except when Christ comes.  They are the last.

 Revelation 11:14   The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

The Two Witnesses are called  "the two olive branches and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth."  (Rev 11:4). 

In a vision, John sees Jesus "walking among seven golden lampstands" (Rev. 1:12-13).   John is told that the 7 lampstands are "the seven churches" (Rev 1:20).

[To Ephesus] Revelation 2:5 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.

FIVE of the Churches are told to repent or be removed. 

The 2 lampstands left shining are Philadelphia and Smyrna.  The church of Brotherly Love and the church of the Martyrs.  They are the LAST WITNESSES.

These are "the saints" who will be persecuted by the Beast power.

The 2 lampstands = 2 Witnesses, speak the message of Moses ["Choose life."] and the message of Elijah ["Choose this day, whom you will serve."].

The Two Witnesses have "power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy" (Elijah's 3.5 years) "and they have power over waters to turn them to blood and to strike the earth with all plagues" (Moses in Egypt).  Rev. 11:6

"These are the two olive branches and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth."  (Rev 11:4). 

Smyrna and Philadelphia are the two branches still left attached to the Olive Tree (Israel), and the two lampstands still left shining after the other 5 have been "removed". 

Just my take on it. . .

 

[Resurrection Priest]

The teachings of John Nelson Darby (1830s), on the postponed 70th week and the rapture, were incorporated into The Scofield Reference Bible (1909).  One page was Bible.  The facing page was Scofield commentary/interpretation.  For years and years, Baptists read Scofield, until large numbers began to think of his commentary as inspired canon.  The teaching of dispensationalism and the rapture is not something new.  The "Left Behind" movie series just brought it into national awareness. 

[Behold]

On 1/15/2020 at 4:27 AM, Diaste said:

There is no difference in the OT and the NT.

 

There is the Blood of Jesus that is not found in the Old Testament, that is a BIG Difference.

There is the CROSS of CHRIST that is not found in the OLD TESTAMENT, (TORAH)< that is a Big Difference.

There is the New Covenant that is the New Testament, written in the Blood of Jesus that replaces the 1st Covenant, found in the OT =  that God said He "found fault with"< that is the Torah. (Law)

God didn't find a fault with the New Testament, or New Covenant, and that is another BIG Difference between the Torah and the New Testament.

Jesus is the Mediator of a New Testament and a NEW Covenant, and that is not what you find in the OLD TESTAMENT and OLD COVENANT.   That is another big difference.

How many more differences do you need?

"The LAW, came by MOSES....that is the OLD TESTAMENT, ...while........GRACE AND TRUTH Came BY JESUS Christ"........that is the NEW Testament.

The OLD and the NEW Testament are completely different., and that you  don't realize this, is unfortunate.

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Behold

[JoeMo]

On 1/12/2020 at 11:59 AM, Resurrection Priest said:

I believe we will spend the 7th millennium in the Heavenly realm, in the New Jerusalem - the place He has prepared. 

I believe the earth will be completely decimated by the trumpet and bowl plagues.  Everything will be "burned up".

I "believe" (i.e., am of the opinion but not overly dogmatic about it) that we will spend the 7th millennium here on earth.  There are too many scriptures that talk about Jesus or the saints ruling the nations with a rod of iron; and the remnant from the nations coming to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles or face drought and famine.  As I have discussed this with others, I have come to the thought that scripture is unclear about whether the stuff RP is referring to will happen in the 7th or 8th millennium.  So my mind remains open ...

[OldCoot]

On 1/16/2020 at 3:42 PM, Behold said:

There is the Blood of Jesus that is not found in the Old Testament, that is a BIG Difference.

There is the CROSS of CHRIST that is not found in the OLD TESTAMENT, (TORAH)< that is a Big Difference.

There is the New Covenant that is the New Testament, written in the Blood of Jesus that replaces the 1st Covenant, found in the OT =  that God said He "found fault with"< that is the Torah. (Law)

God didn't find a fault with the New Testament, or New Covenant, and that is another BIG Difference between the Torah and the New Testament.

Jesus is the Mediator of a New Testament and a NEW Covenant, and that is not what you find in the OLD TESTAMENT and OLD COVENANT.   That is another big difference.

How many more differences do you need?

"The LAW, came by MOSES....that is the OLD TESTAMENT, ...while........GRACE AND TRUTH Came BY JESUS Christ"........that is the NEW Testament.

The OLD and the NEW Testament are completely different., and that you  don't realize this, is unfortunate.

 

Have you actually read the Tanakh?   Stuff like Isaiah 53, Psalms 22, etc.   Even what Yeshua wrote in the dirt in John 8 was prophesied in Jeremiah 17.    And grace has always been a part of scripture from the time that the Lord made coverings for Adam and Eve, thru King David, on into the NT.    There never has been any difference.

And the Cross is not found in the Torah?  If you take the sizes of the various tribes, and when they camped in the wilderness they were either on the North, South, East, or West side.  There boundary could not extend beyond the width of the side they were camped on.  If you were to see the layout from a high vantage point like a mountain, you would see the cross laid out below.   

 

 

 

Even the Passover lamb.  It was roasted in an upright position supported by a sticks in the shape of a cross.    The Blood was placed on the door mantle and sides in Eqypt as prescribed by the Lord so the death angel would pass over.   That blood on the mantle, the sides, and the bowl of blood at the threshold of the door is the shape of a cross.   

 

Now.... go and study.

Edited January 18, 2020 by OldCoot

[Diaste]

On 1/16/2020 at 2:42 PM, Behold said:

There is the Blood of Jesus that is not found in the Old Testament, that is a BIG Difference.

There is the CROSS of CHRIST that is not found in the OLD TESTAMENT, (TORAH)< that is a Big Difference.

There is the New Covenant that is the New Testament, written in the Blood of Jesus that replaces the 1st Covenant, found in the OT =  that God said He "found fault with"< that is the Torah. (Law)

God didn't find a fault with the New Testament, or New Covenant, and that is another BIG Difference between the Torah and the New Testament.

Jesus is the Mediator of a New Testament and a NEW Covenant, and that is not what you find in the OLD TESTAMENT and OLD COVENANT.   That is another big difference.

How many more differences do you need?

"The LAW, came by MOSES....that is the OLD TESTAMENT, ...while........GRACE AND TRUTH Came BY JESUS Christ"........that is the NEW Testament.

The OLD and the NEW Testament are completely different., and that you  don't realize this, is unfortunate.

 

You really need to read Hebrews again. What you seem to do is confuse profound concepts and ignore others. One should not confuse the Law and God's commandments with Mosaic Law. They are not the same per the conversation about divorce with Jesus in the NT.

Where did Paul get the truth of Jesus since the NT had not yet been written? The Torah

Where did all the quotes about Jesus and eternal salvation come from in Paul's teachings? The Torah.

Jesus is the lamb, "...slain from the foundation of the world." He is salvation and it has always been so.

The cross is not found in the OT? I think Isaiah 53 refutes that. Not only that but the suffering, death and burial of Christ is referenced in the past tense.

It's not different, just veiled, revealed only by the Spirit.

Indeed the first covenant was not adequate. Ever ask why? It's because of this:

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

The fault was not in the covenant, it was in mankind. God then bypassed the ritual and gave the promises to everyone sans the ritual. The promise of God and the destiny of the believer and God's plan have not changed. The only change is God took away the earthly requirement of the Levitical liturgy and all it's demands and gave it to everyone. This is why it's a better covenant, new. Still the same promises, still the same God, still the same Jesus Christ, yesterday, today and forever. Really, read Hebrews again, and again and again.

Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant. But that new covenant is not a change from salvation by the Law to salvation by grace. "For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh," - Romans 8

Perhaps you should read through Romans as well. 

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Abraham was righteous by faith. These are eternal concepts from the beginning. Look here in Genesis; "“Why are you angry,” said the LORD to Cain, “and why has your countenance fallen? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you,b but you must master it.”"

From the beginning sacrifice meant nothing and therefore the law had no effect on salvation but instead had an amazing purpose.

The law was only given to impute sin.

"To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law."

The law was never meant to save because that was not it's purpose.

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Before even the Torah was written, during the wandering of the Jews in the desert we find Jesus.

For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.” We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel. - 1 Cor 10

So even before the promised land was reached the grace of God and the power of salvation in Christ was evident in the desert wanderings; and that before the 10 commandments and the Mosaic law. So what we have is the grace of God from the onset of creation, then the Law to impute sin, that sin might be sin, and then still the grace of God in abundance. What you would have us believe is that God's grace was evident in creation well before Moses, then God suspended grace in favor of the law, then reinstalled grace. Poppycock!

It's always been love and grace and it has always been the great and mighty God and His son Jesus Christ, from the foundation of the world. It is you who, continuing in this, is unfortunate.

 

 

 

 

[OldCoot]

On 1/18/2020 at 6:30 AM, Diaste said:

The cross is not found in the OT? I think Isaiah 53 refutes that. Not only that but the suffering, death and burial of Christ is referenced in the past tense.

 

I would agree, but in a different way.

When one looks at how the tribes were to camp in relation to the tabernacle while in the wilderness, something wonderful is in view.  Imagine being on a mountain overlooking the camp of Israel......

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by OldCoot

[Logostician]

Anyone who loves Jesus in his heart and confesses his faith openly is saved.  Jesus made it as easy as possible for us to be with him, including dying for our sins.  There are different views of the end times.  These differing views should not become wedge issues among God's children, since faith and love in Jesus is all we need to be with him forever.  God knows that we are weak and see things through a glass darkly in this life (1 Cor 13:12) so we can have different views.  Some of my views are given below, I don't present them as authoritarian.  No man knows the day or the hour of the second coming, and yet Rev 1:3 clearly calls on us to attend to end time prophesies, and God blesses us for doing so.

I see dispensationalism in God's approach to humanity.  Israel are God's chosen people through Abraham.  But his plan for all humanity is best expressed in Rom 11:28-32, and it reflects a dispensational treatment of followers of Judaism and Christians.  Note that ethnic Jews can be Christians, and ethnic gentiles can follow Judaism.  From Abraham through Malachi God dealt primarily with New and Judaism in an Israel centered dispensational age.   From the time of Christ to now we have been living in a Christian Church dispensational age.  This does not mean that God is not working in Israel and among followers of Judaism.  As Rom 11 points out, the gifts of the Lord are without repentance.  Israel is still chosen, but Jesus has opened the way for the gentile spiritual children of Abraham through faith.  Heb 11 demonstrates that the old testament patriarchs, including Abraham, were saved by faith.  In the current Christian Church we are also saved by faith.  God doesn't change.  Heb 11:6 makes it clear that faith is requisite for salvation.  Rom 10:9 says the same thing.

Christians are saved by faith.  There are no further admission tests for salvation.  Therefore, I believe there is no reason for Christians to endure the tribulation, since it is intended as a powerful demonstration to everyone on Earth that God is real, and all powerful to turn unbelieving hearts to God.  Rom 14:11 states that every knee will bow to God.  This refers to judgement day.  But in a sense it applies to the rapture and tribulation as well.  When these events come to pass God will be undeniably known.  All will know who he is.  The only question will be who already knows him (Christians) and needs no further persuasion, or will come to know him before the end of this world.

I believe the Christian Church will be taken up by Jesus (raptured) prior to the tribulation, because we are already saved by faith.  We have nothing more to prove to God.  As such the pretribulation rapture would bring an end to the Christian Church dispensational age.  This end would begin eternal life with Jesus.

After the rapture the world will descend into chaos.  This will be greatly facilitated by an absence of moral Christians in the world, and the effective withdrawal of the Spirit of God that was dwelling in them.  The Angels of God will pour out vials of wrath on the world to let everyone know that God is in charge.

During the tribulation God will return to the Israel centered dispensation that began with Abraham.  Israel as the first fruits of God's salvation will fulfill their ordained role of teaching the nation's of the world about God.  The 144,00 of God's elect will truly be of the tribes of Israel.  The two witnesses will most likely be Elijah and Moses.  They will seek to pull as many through the fires of the tribulation as they possibly can.  Only a conversion to faith (as is always the case with God) will save them.  And it will be a painful process for them.  Many will steadfastly refuse God even when his power is made manifest (Rev 9:21).  Although the tribulation is a terrible time, it is actually an act of mercy by God to wake people up before they face eternal damnation.  Rev 11:13 shows that some will be saved.

I believe that we are in the generation of the fig tree now or close to it.  The fig tree sprouted it's leaves when God reestablished the modern state of Israel.  Israel was destroyed by the Roman Empire in 70AD.  The modern state of Israel was established in 1948, although it wasn't until 1967 that Israel attained Jerusalem.  Only God could have brought back his chosen people after so many centuries (see Eze 28).  The events of the end times will focus on Israel.  For this to happen, God had to restore his people in Israel.  He had done that.  More than earthquakes, famines, wars or any other "sign" the reestablishment of Israel sets the stage for the return of Jesus.

The USA is not mentioned in the Bible in any convincing way.  After the rapture, when all of the Christians suddenly depart, I believe it will decay into chaos almost immediately.  It could be destroyed in a nuclear war, or it could simply dissolve into irrelevance.  While the USA continues to be the leading Christian country in the world, we need to protect and defend Israel.  When the USA ceases to be a real country after the rapture, God himself will defend Israel during the tribulation.  Hopefully he will enlist raptured American Christian support during this time.  I think we could still be Spiritual warriors at that time (2 Kgs 6:17).  I hope so.