Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Diaste]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

You cannot give me that understanding because it is not in Scripture.  

Paul's teaching about Abraham had nothing to do with the identity of Israel.  Gentiles are the seed Abraham by faith.  That doesn't make them "Israel."  "Israel" is 100% of the time in the NT always, without exception, an ethnic term.  It is never spiritualized to refer to Gentile believers.   And that is the only correct and Christian way to see it.

I cannot give you the understanding because you need to receive the spirit for revealing of truth. 

Everyone who is in Christ is of the seed of Abraham. 

The is no such thing as Jew or Gentile, all are one in Christ. 

Gentiles have been grafted into the natural olive tree which is Israel.

But if your thinking Israel in this context means border and bloodlines then you won't understand. 

Paul teaches all of the above. You should look to his wisdom and not that of man. Paul's wisdom is from above and mans knowledge is earthly. Paul is superior in this. 

[Guest shiloh357]

44 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I cannot give you the understanding because you need to receive the spirit for revealing of truth. 

You cannot give me that understanding because it doesn't exist in Scripture.

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Everyone who is in Christ is of the seed of Abraham. 

The is no such thing as Jew or Gentile, all are one in Christ. 

 

Which has nothing to do with Israel

 

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Gentiles have been grafted into the natural olive tree which is Israel.

Which doesn't make them Israel.

 

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But if your thinking Israel in this context means border and bloodlines then you won't understand. 

It is talking about the covenant blessings that God pronounced on biblical, ethnic Israel.

 

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Paul teaches all of the above. You should look to his wisdom and not that of man. Paul's wisdom is from above and mans knowledge is earthly. Paul is superior in this. 

It is precisely because I don't look to the carnal wisdom of man, that I have to reject your carnal "theology."

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

The apostle Paul says different. Perhaps you should go inquire of him. Find the truth. Israel is the truth, Gentiles were adopted into Israel, without Israel there is no adoption and we are without a home.

Why?

Because the promise comes through Israel from the one who was given the promise first, Abraham. 

God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel and all Gentiles are adopted sons into this family of faith, and this has nothing to do with national borders or bloodlines.

Paul proves all this, search for it, Paul will show you the way.

The Church is the seed of Abraham by faith.  Israel is the seed of Abraham by promise.

Abraham is the Father of many nation's.

The Church comes from Abraham, not from Israel.

We are not the seed of Israel, thus not their offspring.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

26 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The Church is the seed of Abraham by faith.  Israel is the seed of Abraham by promise.

You need to check scripture on this.

"If you are in Christ you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise."

That's a quote from Paul. You are mistaken.

26 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Abraham is the Father of many nation's.

Including Israel. 

26 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The Church comes from Abraham, not from Israel.

Israel comes from Abraham, same as the church. Same father. All sons, all of his seed, all heirs of the promise. 

26 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

We are not the seed of Israel, thus not their offspring.

"And the dragon was angry with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed." The woman is Israel. We are the remnant of her seed.

26 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

You cannot give me that understanding because it doesn't exist in Scripture.

It does. You just won't mine that treasure.

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Which has nothing to do with Israel

Then with what Jews? Syrian Jews? Asian Jews? 

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Which doesn't make them Israel.

Yes. When adopted a child always remains a separate entity. They don't gain siblings or a home, they are an island forever.

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It is talking about the covenant blessings that God pronounced on biblical, ethnic Israel.

No. This is the promises made to Abraham and his seed, Jews and Gentiles alike.

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It is precisely because I don't look to the carnal wisdom of man, that I have to reject your carnal "theology."

Yeah... but you do look to carnal wisdom. You think all of this is about physical Israel never realizing Paul is speaking to spiritual adoption into spiritual Israel. 

Believe, there is only the sinner and the saved. No segregation. 

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

You need to check scripture on this.

"If you are in Christ you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise."

That's a quote from Paul. You are mistaken.

Including Israel. 

Israel comes from Abraham, same as the church. Same father. All sons, all of his seed, all heirs of the promise. 

"And the dragon was angry with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed." The woman is Israel. We are the remnant of her seed.

 

Our citizenship is in Heaven, which is his promise to us. Israel was promised a land, which was his promise to them. Israel.

We are not Israel, nor their offspring. We were not offered a land, just a heavenly home.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

12 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Our citizenship is in Heaven, which is his promise to us. Israel was promised a land, which was his promise to them. Israel.

We are not Israel, nor their offspring. We were not offered a land, just a heavenly home.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Oh, so you see the promises to Israel through Abraham as that of real estate? 

So the promises to Abraham were not of heaven, eternal life, and glory and honor in the righteousness of the King; it was hotels and shopping centers. 

Interesting. 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Our citizenship is in Heaven, which is his promise to us. Israel was promised a land, which was his promise to them. Israel.

We are not Israel, nor their offspring. We were not offered a land, just a heavenly home.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Above is the quote. Tough to misinterpret this. We are offered Heaven, Israel, land. A bit of sarcasm show it to be ridiculous, but only because it is.

2 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

It is always counter-productive to attempt to mis-characterize what someone else believes.  All it does is show your own position is weak or you would not need to resort to such tactics.

You know that pre-tribbers do not believe that God's promises to Israel are simply about a patch of land.  But you would make the above statement to someone knowing it's false while your typing it.  What would be your motivation for doing so?

Ad hominems say a great deal about a person when they incessantly resort to them.

An ad hominem is an attack against the person, it literally means, "to the person" I defied the statement. I poked fun at the statement with the following:

"Oh, so you see the promises to Israel through Abraham as that of real estate? 

So the promises to Abraham were not of heaven, eternal life, and glory and honor in the righteousness of the King; it was hotels and shopping centers. 

Interesting."

So if you see a personal attack here, please enlighten me.

Whether pretrib doctrine says one thing or another is irrelevant. This was about a statement from one person, not a group. What? Are you into group characterizations? That stereotyping.

And are you going to falsely accuse me of knowing something? How did you know what I was thinking at the moment I typed? Or before or after I typed  And how am I to know if Marv sincerely believes what he says or not? Am I privy to his intent or motivation? You don't know that either unless you have had discussions with him about this very subject. I know I have not had those discussions so there is no background and hence no way to discern if this is his core belief, or if it's a terse reply, or some abbreviated summation of a larger concept. All I do is take it for what is typed and I find the statement ludicrous.

If you'd like to pursue why the church, the Jews and Israel are one in the same I'm open.

 

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Oh, so you see the promises to Israel through Abraham as that of real estate? 

So the promises to Abraham were not of heaven, eternal life, and glory and honor in the righteousness of the King; it was hotels and shopping centers. 

Interesting. 

Phil. 3:20 - But our citizenship is in Heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Abrahamic Covenant passed from Abraham to Isaac and then to Jacob (Israel)  The Covenant was a People, a Land, and a Blessing (Jesus Christ). Gen  17:8 - The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you, and I will be their God.  Interesting that the land is from the Euphrates to the Nile. (Gen 15:18)

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Steve Conley]

20 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

My name is not "4", for starters (unless you want me to call you "con").

As for your statement about "grossly misinterpreting" Daniel 9:24, the passage it is in says:

" “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”  (Daniel 9:24-27, NASB, emphasis mine)

Here, the Lord decreed the amount of time, to a specific people,  to accomplish six specific tasks. I don't know where you think you're getting that these aren't obligations, seeing that the Lord has given them to Israel to fulfill!

They weren't exactly "optional", Steve!

As for your accusation of "trying to find a pre-trib rapture in the Scriptures": I don't need to try. It's there already.

That said: If I am contradicting the statements of Christ, Paul, peter and John, then it is on you to post them. And please do not give me the "go look them up yourself" nonsense;  you make the claim, you bring the evidence.

It's on you. Post your verses that you claim teach the Church is on earth during the Tribulation.

And yes, every eye shall see him, but Scripture never says where the people who see Him are! Some will be on the earth, some will be with Him, and some will still be in Hades. And you cannot get around the issue of where those who rebel in the millennium come from if all the saints are translated at a Post-Trib Rapture. Our new bodies won't reproduce, so no children would be possible in the Millennium:

"On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, asking, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.’ “Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. “Last of all, the woman died. “In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.” But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. “But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. (Matthew 23-33, NASB, emphasis mine)

Unlike what Isaiah tells us in chapter 65:

"No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed. They will build houses and inhabit them; They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat; For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands. They will not labor in vain, Or bear children for calamity; For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, And their descendants with them." (Isaiah 65:20-23, NASB, emphasis mine)

Lastly, your final comment in the quote leads to a few problems that you would need to address before you can continue to teach your "point of view": 

-If what you say is supposedly the case, then what about those who died with no persecution before the Tribulation? Does that mean the Church did something that Christ's blood didn't cover? Or were those saints who died peacefully in decades past (not everyone was martyred, you know) disobeying the Lord by not dying in persecution that you think "fits the bill"?   Do they get resurrected to "suffer for the Lord" even though Scripture says we "die once"?

- If the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer (and I showed via Scripture that He is), the Restrainer removes Himself so that the Man of Lawlessness may appear, and God has promised in Scripture that He would "never leave us nor forsake us", then how do you explain the removal of the Holy Spirit without breaking God's promise to His Church?

- If the Lord's wrath is only the Bowl Judgments, then why does Revelation 6 say:

" I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Revelation 6:12-17, NASB, emphasis mine)

It says "for the great day of their wrath has come", not "the great day of their wrath is coming". Keep in mind that Jesus breaks the Seals, God orders the angels to sound their trumpets, and to pour their bowls; seals to bowls, all of it is the Lord.

- If the first 14 Judgments aren't God's wrath as you claim, then what? Was God only slightly irritated?

9

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Sojourner414, I apologize for not providing you with all the Scriptures supporting my statements. As I have time I will attempt to do that. Also, if my shortened version of your name (So...4) is offensive I apologize for that too. Likewise, I apologize for anything you deemed an attack upon your person. I was once in your position (eschatologically) believing and teaching somewhat as you do, but I came to realize that it was a house of cards that was built upon inference, assumption, and circular reasoning.

You have committed many errors in the post quoted above.

Error #1

In response to your unusual teaching that the six things to be accomplished in the seventy weeks are to be accomplished by Israel. The translators of the version you are using made a poor choice in their translation when they chose "for your people and your holy city" instead of "upon thy people and upon thy holy city". Their use of "for", in the minds of some, adds to the meaning of the Gabriel's words, implying that these are to be accomplished by Israel and the holy city. There is no such intended meaning. Each of these conditions shall be brought about by Christ. Let's look at them.

Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

This is what I presently understand each of these to mean

1) To finish the transgression

This is a specific clear defiance of authority. It is Israel's rebellion which will come to an end within these 490 years (seventy weeks).

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Israel's course of apostasy and sin will be brought to completion during the seventy weeks.

2) To make an end of sins

Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

This refers to sins (plural) in general. Within these 490 years Israel shall be saved from sin's presence, power, and penalty.

Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Eze 37:23  Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

The Jewish people entering the millennial kingdom with a new heart will have a supernatural power to restrain sins in their daily life.

Note that this is concerning the Israeli people. There will still be a rebellion of the ethnos (the gentiles) at the end of the millennium.

3) To make reconciliation for iniquity

Reconciliation is the word kaw-far' which is translated atonement, to cover. It is that which is able to cover our sins. Only the blood of our sinless Lord Jesus could ever satisfy the righteous justice of God concerning our sins.

Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Heb 10:10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Rom 3:25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

4) To bring in everlasting righteousness

Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 7:27  And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Jer 33:14  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
Jer 33:15  In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
Jer 33:16  In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

Isa 32:17  And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.

Isa 11:4  But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5  And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6  The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7  And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8  And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9  They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10  And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

2Pe 3:13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

5) To seal up the vision and prophecy

To seal up is translated from the same word that was rendered "to make an end" earlier in the verse. Not only shall the vision and prophecy be fulfilled within these 490 years, but this statement might include that there will be no more visions and prophecy after these 490 years. Once a letter is sealed no more is added to it.

6) To anoint the most Holy

Ko'-desh, ko'-desh is the Holy of Holies in the Temple. This refers to the consecration of the Holy of Holies in the restored Temple of the millennial kingdom. (Ezek. 40-48)

These conditions are not accomplished by Israel and the holy city. If you keep your present translation, you should understand "for" to mean "concerning".

Error #2

You said "you cannot get around the issue of where those who rebel in the millennium come from if all the saints are translated at a Post-Trib Rapture. Our new bodies won't reproduce, so no children would be possible in the Millennium"

You are wrong to assume that I'm a post-tribber. I hold to the Biblical pre-wrath model for the timing of the rapture. You are also wrong that the above statement is a problem for pre-wrath adherents.

There are great multitudes of mortals that are subject to Christ in the Millennial Kingdom. These are those that remain of the nations that came up against the Lamb at Armageddon. Zachariah tells us of them.

Zec 14:16  And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Many unbelievers from among the nations do not join in the battle against the Lamb. Many of these will also have helped the persecuted church and Israel during the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation (Matt 25:31-46). It is these mortals who Christ rules with a rod of iron in the Millennial Kingdom.

Error #3

You said, "If what you say is supposedly the case, then what about those who died with no persecution before the Tribulation? Does that mean the Church did something that Christ's blood didn't cover? Or were those saints who died peacefully in decades past (not everyone was martyred, you know) disobeying the Lord by not dying in persecution that you think "fits the bill"?   Do they get resurrected to "suffer for the Lord" even though Scripture says we "die once"?"

You make some ridiculous conclusions. Paul said, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2Ti 3:12) Believers who live godly indeed are persecuted. There are varying degrees of persecution. Not all will resist unto blood

Col 1:24  Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Error #4

- If the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer (and I showed via Scripture that He is), the Restrainer removes Himself so that the Man of Lawlessness may appear, and God has promised in Scripture that He would "never leave us nor forsake us", then how do you explain the removal of the Holy Spirit without breaking God's promise to His Church?

There isn't a shred of evidence for the Holy Spirit being the one withholding the revelation of the man of sin. That is just the fanciful speculation of those trying to find anything to add support to a baseless pre-trib model for the timing of the rapture. The Scriptures make a powerful case for Michael being the restrainer.  https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/219011-michaels-relationship-to-the-middle-of-the-week/    

Hallelujah                                                                                                             

Edited June 27, 2018 by Steve Conley