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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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Guest choobaca

Hi Rollin,

First you ask me "how do I explain"?, and then you said that our sharing is a waste of time.

A little confused here?? Does that mean you do not want to continue?

But I'll give you the first explanation, and if you do not respond, then I'll understand.

In your question about escaping in Luke 21, your assumption was that those that escaped was by a pretrib rapture and stand before the Son of Man in heaven.

But is this so? Whenever you want to prove a point using the Gospels, you must use the parallel accounts to get the full picture, especially when they are talking about the same chronology of time.

In Mathew's account we have......

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea "FLEE" into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Note vs 16 is certainly a horizontal fleeing out from the midst of the scene. Now the chronology here is when the AC comes on the scene. If the AC is here, then so are the disciples. If you read 2 Thess 2 closely, you will see that the "Coming" of the AC is before the "Coming" of of Christ. So is it here in Mat 24:15. This is the reason, Jesus tells them to move out. Heaven is not in view here.

Now let's look at the Grk for "FLee"

FLEE, FLED

1. pheugo NT:5343, "to flee from or away" (Lat., fugio; Eng., "fugitive," etc.), besides its literal significance, is used metaphorically, (a) transitively, of "fleeing" fornication, 1 Cor 6:18; idolatry, 10:14; evil doctrine, questionings, disputes of words, envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, wranglings, and the love of money, 1 Tim 6:11; youthful lusts, 2 Tim 2:22; (b) intransitively, of the "flight" of physical matter, Rev 16:20; 20:11; of death, 9:6. See ESCAPE.

(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright ©1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Now the Luke account must be read a couple of verses previous to the ones you quoted to me. Pretrib starts with vs 34 as you did. Based only on 34 - 36, it does look like what you said to me.

But.......

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Note: this is the same as in Mat 24

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Note: same as Mat.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Note: the same as Mat.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Note: "When these things BEGIN to come to pass". He says "Look up". They are still on the earth.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Note: same as Mat 24.

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Note: The fig tree shows an aproximate time that no one knows until it shoots forth or buds.

We also don't know the hour or the day.

31 So likewise ye, when ye SEE these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Note: Here we see a change from "BEGIN" to actually SEEING the things coming to pass. Well, you would have to be here to be able to see the things.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Note: same as Mat 24.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Note: same as Mat 24.

This is where you quoted......

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Note: the "snare" is the same as the time of the AC during the Trib.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Now, we see the "escaping", but from what and in what direction?? The escaping,(is the things) and not to succomb to the wiles and lies of the AC. Leave the scene or flee as is in Mat 24. This is not the Rapture, for the Son of Man is about to come, but has not touched down yet.

See.....Grk for "escape" in Lk 21:36.....

ESCAPE

4. ekpheugo NT:1628, "to flee out of a place" (ek, "out of," and No. 1), is said of the "escape" of prisoners, Acts 16:27; of Sceva's sons, "fleeing" from the demoniac, 19:16; of Paul's escape from Damascus, 2 Cor 11:33; elsewhere with reference to the judgments of God, Luke 21:36; Rom 2:3; Heb 2:3; 12:25; 1 Thess 5:3. See FLEE.

(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright ©1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Note: here we see another Grk word for "Flee" which is akin to "escape". We would call it is a synonym.

So based on the above, I believe we are still here during the "Snare" but it won't touch us because we will do as Jesus has said...."Watch, wait, witness, pray, and be ye ready also". For what? His one and only Second Coming.

We can't see all the things that will happen in the Trib, unless we are here. See vs 31 again.

Shalom my Brother,

Frank

PS

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption

John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

KJV

This should answer why I say those in the grave have to put on incorruption, because their bodies have decayed or corrupted.

KJV

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Good work choobaca :)

One thing though. I wish you could avoid using the word "foolishness" in your posts there are other words that can be used. But apart from that excellent witness for the Word Of God.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

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Elijah was caught up physically into heaven as in type or foreshadowing of the coming of the Lord and our personal rapture, yet Elijah returned through John the Baptist as Jesus said in Matt.11. Why not then would Jesus not return through another physical body or bodies such as the body of Christ? I believe the glorified bodies that we receive, is just being in oneness in the body of Christ. After all the Body of Christ is a spiritual glorified body.

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Guest choobaca
Good work choobaca :huh:

One thing though. I wish you could avoid using the word "foolishness" in your posts there are other words that can be used. But apart from that excellent witness for the Word Of God.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hi Adstar,

Sorry that "foolishness offends you. It is not the same as personally calling one a fool.

if a doctrinal or dogmatic statement is spoken, then that word seems to fit best. It is not a personal affront. Maybe you would rather see "rubbish"/ "off the wall" or just "NOT" or "wrong".

A little help here would be great.

Thx,

choobaca :wub:

:c:

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Hello choobaca, what

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The pre-trib doctrine is pure heresy! I used to believe it and was led along by men's fables - UNTIL I started reading the scriptures for myself and I was delivered from it.

i could be wrong, but i always believed that heretical teachings were ones that would cause one to be misled away from the Body of Christ. heresy in that sense is very dangerous because it causes so many who think they know Jesus to end up being told on judgement day "depart, i never knew you".

it seems to me that whatever one believes regarding the timing of the tribulation is not going to separate them from eternal life.

the term heresy, IMO, should be reserved for those who teach such things as active homosexuals being able to enter heaven, or that the virgin mary can hear prayers and intercede between man and God, or that all paths (buddhism, islam, etc) lead to heaven, and so on.

i believe in the pre-trib theory. but to say that my belief is heretical is akin to me telling another christian that they are going to hell if they believe that water baptism is a requirement of salvation. know what i mean?

scripture does not give us enough concrete evidence to prove or disprove when the rapture will occur. it simply gives us enough to know, without a doubt, that it WILL occur. i would never even think of accusing someone who believed in the post or mid trib theories of heresy. i would expect God to smack me upside the head with a 2x4 for such a judgement.

Amen LadyC,

I missed this post, but I'm with you on this. :huh:

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erased

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