Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Steve Conley]

On 3/27/2018 at 2:19 AM, Joulre2abba said:

 

 

On 3/27/2018 at 2:19 AM, Joulre2abba said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joulre2abba, I wrote what I did because you and so many others, like I once did, have turned assumptions and guesses into foundational doctrines.

That's not me that assumes or guesses. I believe what Jesus, Paul and Isaiah said. So you are judging them.

Doctrines held right along side of the deity of Christ and justification by faith. The "pre-trib rapture" and the "any moment return of Christ" are false teachings that will leave the church unprepared for the great persecution that lies ahead.

I am just as certain as you sound, but even more so since I have not accepted a doctrine taught by uninspired men.

Your beliefs require you to ignore the pertinent verses or interpret them differently than intended in order to not have to deal with it's truth.

Paul says that the parousia and our gathering unto Christ, which he calls the day of Christ, cannot happen until there is a notable falling away (departure from the faith) and the man of sin be revealed in the Temple shewing himself to be God. The revelation of the man of sin and his defiling of the temple is what begins the great tribulation (Matt 24:15, 21).

The text does not say "departure from faith". The Bible version you quote has "from faith" in italics which means that it isn't there in the original text. Are you not aware of the Bibles that were printed prior to the King James which all used the word "departure" and only "departure" in that text? Which very much indicates that the departure was not that of a change in allegiance to God, but of a physical removal from the earth.

To interpret it as a change of allegiance is taking it out of context with the full teaching of Paul in the chapter.

And the following verse confirms that by stating "he is taken out of the way." Some say that "he" is the Holy Spirit but why should He need to be 'caught up' in order to be removed from the earth? And further more, why think that the Holy Spirit must leave when He is necessary in order that those alive during the Tribulation can be saved.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joulre2abba, I'm so sorry that you have been deceived by those who in a desperate attempt to find a pre-trib rapture in the Scriptures have twisted a well understood word. Apostasia in its historical meaning signifies a falling away or departure from some system of belief whether religious or political. It is only found twice in the Scriptures where it is translated forsake and falling away.

Act 21:21  And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You said:

"The text does not say "departure from faith". The Bible version you quote has "from faith" in italics which means that it isn't there in the original text. Are you not aware of the Bibles that were printed prior to the King James which all used the word "departure" and only "departure" in that text? Which very much indicates that the departure was not that of a change in allegiance to God, but of a physical removal from the earth.

To interpret it as a change of allegiance is taking it out of context with the full teaching of Paul in the chapter."

Departure is a fine word to translate it into, because it is a departure from the faith. That is what Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse.

You are following the teaching of men who are willful eisegetes of the Holy Scriptures. They purposefully read into the text, wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction. It is one thing to hold a position being uninformed, it is another thing altogether to manufacture support for a false system. It is the very same type of thing that the Russelites (JWs) do in an attempt to remove the deity of Christ from the Scriptures.

Joulre2abba, if you did real research you would know that the late Dr. Walvoord as well as many other pre-trib scholars have spoken against such foolishness. The Idea of apostasia referring to a physical departure is completely unfounded. It is not found in the Scriptures, nor is it found in the 355 occurrences of apostasia in koine Greek literature. In all of these it is never once used in the sense of a physical departure. It isn't until the fifth century AD that it is found that the word had evolved, at least in the mind of one man, to mean physical departure. There is a single reference four centuries later of its use in the sense of a physical departure. And you want to take that over the thousands of uses in the sense of a forsaking of previously held religious or political belief.

You are on a slippery slope, following men that you think to be true, but are not. Many of these men know the things I have just told you. Yet in a desperate attempt to find a pre-trib rapture in the Scriptures they twist the simplest of words.

What is good, is that any honest child of God wanting to know truth can recognize that the "apostasia is the rapture" statement is false just from reading the text of 2Thes 2. For it to mean that, Paul would essentially be saying that the rapture can not come until there has been a rapture first and the man of sin has been revealed.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

You said:

"And the following verse confirms that by stating "he is taken out of the way." Some say that "he" is the Holy Spirit but why should He need to be 'caught up' in order to be removed from the earth? And further more, why think that the Holy Spirit must leave when He is necessary in order that those alive during the Tribulation can be saved."

Again you are following the teachings of men who are heaping one falsehood upon another. The restrainer is not the Church nor the Holy Spirit it is Michael the Archangel.

Michael's suitability to be the restrainer

 

The Holy Scriptures present Michael as the mightiest of the Heavenly Host. He is seen opposing Satan on a handful of occasions in the Scriptures. Jude tells us that Michael contended with the Devil over the body of Moses, whom he rebuked in the name of the Lord. As recorded in Daniel 10, it is Michael that dealt with the prince of Persia when he had detained Gabriel on his way with a message for Daniel. In the future Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with Satan and his angels, after which he will cast Satan to the earth. It is Michael who appears to have been tasked with the responsibility to hold back the revelation of the man of sin until it is the right time.

 

Michael's unique relationship to the middle of the seventieth week

 

In the future eschatological period known as Daniel's seventieth week, the archangel Michael will play a significant role. We find him in three passages that present events that take place in the middle of the week.

 

1) Michael stands up and an unparalleled time of trouble begins (Dan 12:1)

 

Dan 11:45  And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

 

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

Dan 12:7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

The context of the end of Daniel chapter 11 is the activities of the Beast in the end of the age. In chapter 11 we learn characteristics about him and see some of his military activities. The chapter ends with him placing the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain. This location appears to be Mt. Zion in Jerusalem. The significance of this is that it is at that time (Dan 12:1) that Michael makes a change in his activity which results in an unparalleled time of trouble (Dan 12:1). This time of trouble is consistent with the great tribulation, Jesus spoke of. We also see that there is a unique period length that is mentioned in relation to what is taking place in the beginning of chapter 12. The length that is given is "a time, times, and an half" or 3½ years. Seven times in the Scriptures we find this same length of time spoken of in various forms: 1260 days, 42 months, and 3½ years. It appears each time that they are associated with the second half of the seventieth week. The obvious conclusion is that the change in activity by Michael takes place in the middle of the week and leads to the beginning of the unparalleled time of trouble.

 

2) War in heaven, Satan cast to the earth (Rev 12:7-14)

 

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with the dragon (Satan) and his angels, after which Satan is cast to the earth having great wrath. Once upon the earth, Satan goes after a remnant of Israel (represented by the woman), but she is hidden and fed by God in the wilderness for 1260 days (Rev 12:6). The 1260 days indicate that the war in heaven took place in the middle of the week. Again, we see that Michael is very prominent in the middle of the week.

 

3) The abomination of desolation starts the great tribulation (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27)

 

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

The temple is defiled in the middle of the week which initiates the great tribulation. This is consistent with the Daniel 12:1 passage, but Michael is not mentioned by name or referred to here.

 

4) The revelation of the man of sin (2Thess 2:3-10)

 

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 

 

In Paul's instruction to the Thessalonians, he tells them that before the day of Christ can come there must be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed. He also mentions that there is one who is withholding the revelation of the man of sin and that they, the Thessalonians, knew who it was. This one who is withholding, is referred to by Paul in both in the neuter and masculine gender, which can only be a spiritual being. This revelation, that is being withheld, involves the man of sin sitting in the temple and shewing himself to be God. Paul also says that this Antichrist (man of sin) shall receive power from Satan. 

 

We already know from the previous passages we looked at that the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week and it begins the great tribulation. Here, we see further details concerning the defiling of the temple, and, learn of one hindering the work of the mystery of iniquity. It is said that this hindering will continue "until he be taken out of the way." It is interesting to note that the last Greek word in verse 7 is "mesos" which means middle even though it is translated "the way". It is as if Paul is saying that the restrainer will continue to hinder until the middle. I wonder what middle he was referring to. Could it be the middle of the week? Could this restrainer be Michael who is associated with the middle of the week in so many other places?

 

I believe that there is ample evidence to support Michael as the restrainer of 2Thes 2 and not the church or the Holy Spirit.

Hallelujah

 

[Joulre2abba]

3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joulre2abba, I'm so sorry that you have been deceived by those who in a desperate attempt to find a pre-trib rapture in the Scriptures have twisted a well understood word.

You know nothing about me, therefore you have assumed how or why I have such a position. So I shall tell you. I arrived at it by reading the scriptures on my own. I was not led into it by some preacher or teacher. My Bible version has excellent references.. so I guess that you will have to blame the publishers.

I am of a mind to return your words back to you, that you have been deceived by those who in a desperate attempt to find support for their unbiblical position of an unsupportable alternate timing of the rapture by twisting the well understood verses of scripture.

Apostasia in its historical meaning signifies a falling away or departure from some system of belief whether religious or political.

The historical sense that you refer goes back only to the printing of the KJV.. as I pointed out on my previous post, the Bibles printed previous to it all used the word "departure" which corresponds to "taken out of the way". So you are in error in insisting otherwise.

It is only found twice in the Scriptures where it is translated forsake and falling away.

Act 21:21  And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The text of 2 Thes.2:3 is the one I speak of concerning the word "departure".

You said:

"The text does not say "departure from faith". The Bible version you quote has "from faith" in italics which means that it isn't there in the original text. Are you not aware of the Bibles that were printed prior to the King James which all used the word "departure" and only "departure" in that text? Which very much indicates that the departure was not that of a change in allegiance to God, but of a physical removal from the earth.

To interpret it as a change of allegiance is taking it out of context with the full teaching of Paul in the chapter."

Departure is a fine word to translate it into, because it is a departure from the faith. That is what Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse.

That has nothing to do with the departure topic context of 2 Thes.2:3.

You are following the teaching of men who are willful eisegetes of the Holy Scriptures. They purposefully read into the text, wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction.

I have just showed that you have done read into the text regarding the Olivet Discourse and erroneously connecting it with the KJV altered translation of "falling away" in 2 Thes.2:3. the verse context of being "taken out of the way" which corresponds to being "gathered together unto Him." which corresponds with being "caught up to be together with the Lord in the air." And therefore is not speaking of falling away from faith as in turning away from allegiance with God.

What sort of falling away from faith are you talking about? To be an ex Christian? Is that the same or different than To be as one described in Hebrews 6? Or, is it being backslidden? Regardless, it's interesting that the phrase "falling away from faith" is not used in the Bible in any of those text cases. But wait, in Mat.24:9-10 when Jesus was talking about the events of the Tribulation he said 9 "Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name." 10 "at that time many will fall away and betray and hate one another." And saying also, 12 "Because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of most will grow cold."

That love being the covenant love toward one's neighbor.. which all Jews were commanded to do. We however love the brethren as Christ Jesus so loves each of us. We follow the new testament commandment. 

It is one thing to hold a position being uninformed, it is another thing altogether to manufacture support for a false system. It is the very same type of thing that the Russelites (JWs) do in an attempt to remove the deity of Christ from the Scriptures.

Wow, was this what you were told and so you dropped your former position of a pre-trib rapture? The comparison is not even accurate. The pre-trib rapture doctrine doesn't take away the deity of Christ at all. However, with that Russelite argument, I could in the same way use it to speak against your current choice of rapture doctrine.

But you'd rightly object and disagree that the two are related at all.

Joulre2abba, if you did real research you would know that the late Dr. Walvoord as well as many other pre-trib scholars have spoken against such foolishness.

If you mean to use Dr. Walvoord to be saying something against the pre-trib positon.. you have managed to twist his own rapture position because if you accuse me of following the Russelites then you are also accusing Walvoord. I you accuse me of attempting to remove the deity of Christ, then you also accuse Walvoord. Congratulations for causing me to think that you are no good authority on the topic of the rapture at all. 

The Idea of apostasia referring to a physical departure is completely unfounded.

You haven't yet proved that apostasia means "falling away from faith".. sorry for doing no more than turning your own words back to you but it is useful.. your theory is completely unfounded. You ignore the history of previous Bible translations. You presuppose that the KJV of 2 Thes.2:3 "falling away" means "from faith".

Your exegesis is either accidentally or purposely incorrect.

It is not found in the Scriptures, nor is it found in the 355 occurrences of apostasia in koine Greek literature. In all of these it is never once used in the sense of a physical departure.

There is the related word apostasion, the masculine form of apostasia which is translated "divorce". That is a physical action. The word apostasia can also mean 'withdraw' and 'remove'. Both denoting a physical action. Conclusion: There is no support for the spiritual action of falling away from faith in the text of 2 Thes.2:3.

It isn't until the fifth century AD that it is found that the word had evolved, at least in the mind of one man, to mean physical departure. There is a single reference four centuries later of its use in the sense of a physical departure. And you want to take that over the thousands of uses in the sense of a forsaking of previously held religious or political belief.

Where are the "thousands of uses"? You've only got one. And that is by adding the non original text words "from faith" concerning 2 Thes.2:3.

You are on a slippery slope, following men that you think to be true, but are not.

What men have I referred to?.. I'm speaking strictly from the Bible itself and the given original text. However, you admitted that you have changed your former pre-trib rapture position due to some man who debated with you. So it's you that are on the slippery slope, not me.

Many of these men know the things I have just told you. Yet in a desperate attempt to find a pre-trib rapture in the Scriptures they twist the simplest of words.

Now you seek to undermine a supposed reliance upon their scholarly authority., while at the same time hoping that I trust you instead. But that isn't going to happen since your methods of persuasion are not honest, and they're not according to the pure teaching and guidance of the Holy Spirit. You sir are a wolf in sheep's clothing. You are the stranger that seeks to draw this sheep away from the Shepherd's fold. But I don't recognize your voice as reflecting that of my Shepherd Jesus Christ.

What is good, is that any honest child of God wanting to know truth can recognize that the "apostasia is the rapture" statement is false just from reading the text of 2Thes 2. For it to mean that, Paul would essentially be saying that the rapture can not come until there has been a rapture first and the man of sin has been revealed.

Now that just shows the error of your thinking. Since you insist that apostasia means falling away from faith .. I could just as easily say that you are saying that the falling away from faith cannot happen until the falling away from faith happens first.

But in clearly understanding what Paul wrote, he didn't say that a falling away from faith would happen at all, but he plainly said that the day of the Lord cannot come unless there be a departure first., in context corresponding with when he wrote "he will be taken out of the way."

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Continuing with the verses..

2Thes.2:5 Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?
2Thes.2:6 And you know what is now restraining him, so that he will be revealed at the proper time.
2Thes.2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.
2Thes.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed.

Thus Paul is saying as I said above.  That the day of the Lord cannot come unless there be a departure first., in context corresponding with when he wrote "he will be taken out of the way."

You said:

"And the following verse confirms that by stating "he is taken out of the way." Some say that "he" is the Holy Spirit but why should He need to be 'caught up' in order to be removed from the earth? And further more, why think that the Holy Spirit must leave when He is necessary in order that those alive during the Tribulation can be saved."

Again you are following the teachings of men who are heaping one falsehood upon another. The restrainer is not the Church nor the Holy Spirit it is Michael the Archangel.

This cinches it. You are clearly following the teachings of men. The angel Michael is the not the restrainer of lawlessness, the Holy Spirit is.. through the Church, whom Jesus gave authority to bind (restrain) and/or loose (let go).

But, if you are right, then give the scripture that authorizes Michael to restrain.

Michael's suitability to be the restrainer

The Holy Scriptures present Michael as the mightiest of the Heavenly Host. He is seen opposing Satan on a handful of occasions in the Scriptures. Jude tells us that Michael contended with the Devil over the body of Moses, whom he rebuked in the name of the Lord. As recorded in Daniel 10, it is Michael that dealt with the prince of Persia when he had detained Gabriel on his way with a message for Daniel. In the future Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with Satan and his angels, after which he will cast Satan to the earth. It is Michael who appears to have been tasked with the responsibility to hold back the revelation of the man of sin until it is the right time.

 

I have no argument with that, but he would be overstepping his authority to be the restrainer when the restrainer is responsible to take all believers out of the earth so that the lawless one can fulfill the scriptures concerning him. The restrainer is the same one through which the command of Jesus and commission of the church is (Lk.10:19) to have authority over all the power of the enemy. That is corresponding to (Mat.16:19).

 

In the Psalm it says that the angels (even Michael) hearkens to the voice of His word. The Bible has been given to believers to declare it.

 

Michael's unique relationship to the middle of the seventieth week

In the future eschatological period known as Daniel's seventieth week, the archangel Michael will play a significant role. We find him in three passages that present events that take place in the middle of the week.

 

1) Michael stands up and an unparalleled time of trouble begins (Dan 12:1)

 

Dan 11:45  And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

 

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:

 

Here the scripture clearly states that Michael does his work on behalf of the Jewish people. The church was not in existence at that time. Further, during the Tribulation when the antichrist will be on the earth, the church will have been raptured so again reason why Michael acts on behalf of the Jews.

 

and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

Yes. Every Jew. An excellent reason why the apostle Paul said "All Israel shall be saved."

 

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

That is speaking of (Rev.20) the day of the resurrection unto judgement at the Great White Throne.

 

Dan 12:7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

The context of the end of Daniel chapter 11 is the activities of the Beast in the end of the age. In chapter 11 we learn characteristics about him and see some of his military activities. The chapter ends with him placing the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain. This location appears to be Mt. Zion in Jerusalem. The significance of this is that it is at that time (Dan 12:1) that Michael makes a change in his activity which results in an unparalleled time of trouble (Dan 12:1). This time of trouble is consistent with the great tribulation, Jesus spoke of. We also see that there is a unique period length that is mentioned in relation to what is taking place in the beginning of chapter 12. The length that is given is "a time, times, and an half" or 3½ years. Seven times in the Scriptures we find this same length of time spoken of in various forms: 1260 days, 42 months, and 3½ years. It appears each time that they are associated with the second half of the seventieth week. The obvious conclusion is that the change in activity by Michael takes place in the middle of the week and leads to the beginning of the unparalleled time of trouble.

So in other words, you are saying that the angel Michael is in cahoots with the antichrist, and responsible for the trouble that occurs on the earth. In view of your other misunderstandings of the scriptures, for you to imply this is therefore not surprising.

But on the possibility that I have misunderstood you, I have to tell you that it was because you were not specific enough.. but only that he "made a change that resulted in an unparalleled time of trouble". 

2) War in heaven, Satan cast to the earth (Rev 12:7-14)

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

The angel Michael also fought with the Prince of Persia and resulting that the Prince of Greece would come. So yes, Michael directly fights with demons. As such he defeats them. But again, there first needs to be the voice of His word for Michael to fight and defeat the demon.

 

The scripture in Hebrews states of the angels "Are they not ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who shall be heirs unto salvation?"

 

Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

 

The woman is Israel. She gives birth to those like her. She wouldn't give birth to Gentiles.

 

Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

That is as the promise of God to protect the Jewish people from the antichrist.. even though they at first considered him to be a Cyrus because (Dan.927) he was instrumental in making a way for them to build their Temple.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Yes. Even as all of the 11 disciples, and the apostle Paul who kept the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with the dragon (Satan) and his angels, after which Satan is cast to the earth having great wrath. Once upon the earth, Satan goes after a remnant of Israel (represented by the woman), but she is hidden and fed by God in the wilderness for 1260 days (Rev 12:6). The 1260 days indicate that the war in heaven took place in the middle of the week. Again, we see that Michael is very prominent in the middle of the week.

 

He's doing his job according to Ps.103:20 and Heb.1:14.

 

3) The abomination of desolation starts the great tribulation (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27)

 

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

The temple is defiled in the middle of the week which initiates the great tribulation. This is consistent with the Daniel 12:1 passage, but Michael is not mentioned by name or referred to here.

 

4) The revelation of the man of sin (2Thess 2:3-10)

 

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 

 

In Paul's instruction to the Thessalonians, he tells them that before the day of Christ can come there must be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed.

 

It's departure (rapture). Or else since you believe that you will be on the earth to see the antichrist be revealed.. then that means that all Christians (you and those who believe like you do) will undergo a falling away from faith.

 

Why assume that it will not happen to you?

 

He also mentions that there is one who is withholding the revelation of the man of sin and that they, the Thessalonians, knew who it was. This one who is withholding, is referred to by Paul in both in the neuter and masculine gender, which can only be a spiritual being.

 

Which can only be speaking of the Holy Spirit (neuter) sometimes identified as "it" in some scriptures. And also sometimes identified as "He" in some scriptures. He is the One that leads all Christians into the knowledge of the Truth, not Michael. The Holy Spirit is the One of whom it says "those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God".

 

This revelation, that is being withheld, involves the man of sin sitting in the temple and shewing himself to be God. Paul also says that this Antichrist (man of sin) shall receive power from Satan. 

 

We already know from the previous passages we looked at that the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week and it begins the great tribulation. Here, we see further details concerning the defiling of the temple, and, learn of one hindering the work of the mystery of iniquity. It is said that this hindering will continue "until he be taken out of the way." It is interesting to note that the last Greek word in verse 7 is "mesos" which means middle even though it is translated "the way". It is as if Paul is saying that the restrainer will continue to hinder until the middle. I wonder what middle he was referring to. Could it be the middle of the week? Could this restrainer be Michael who is associated with the middle of the week in so many other places?

The restrainer is the Holy Spirit. He has always been the teacher of the church.. God isn't going to turn that job over to Michael at the middle of the week. It doesn't say anywhere in the scripture that Michael has now or will have the responsibility to teach and train believers regarding the truth of God's word. Michael would have to enter into the hearts of believers to do that.

But no, angels are lesser in rank than the Holy Spirit who is the third person of the Trinity.

I believe that there is ample evidence to support Michael as the restrainer of 2Thes 2 and not the church or the Holy Spirit.

Hallelujah

You are free to believe what you like but it's not according to the scriptures which would mean that the Holy Spirit is not the one who taught those who taught you. Making the angel Michael to replace the Holy Spirit as the restrainer touches on a lot of erroneous thinking that I won't go into since this post is long enough already.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 8:58 PM, Keras said:

Actually, the half of the Christians who will be in the holy Land when the AC conquers them, Zechariah 14:1-2, who keep their faith in God, Daniel 11:32, will be taken to a place of safety, as Revelation 12:14 says. The other half must remain in the Land. I do not see that many will be killed then, just persecuted. 

 

Those are not Christians.  Those are the unbelieving Jews you hate so much.   Fortunately, God is going to preserve them as has promised so many times in the past.   

Quote

You directly oppose scripture with that statement. Revelation 5:10

No, I simply know the Bible better than you and interpret it correctly as opposed to the sloppy manner in which you twist and pervert the Scripture to support your anti-Jew theology.  

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Many prophesies tell how the Jewish people will be judged and punished soon, only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Romans 9:27 

No, they don't.  Most of those prophecies apply to the pre-exilic period.   You are taking prophecies that were for ancient Israel prior to the exile into Babylon. 

 

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It is we Christians who will be the people God always wanted in His Land, but has never had. WE will be His witnesses and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

No, because the Church is never promised the Land of Israel.  Nowhere does that exist in the NT.  That is just more utter nonsense.   TRUE Christians don't believe what you believe.   Your fraudulent, anti-Christ theology brings a reproach upon Christ

[HAZARD]

The second coming, the second advent of Christ with the raptured saints;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0NROedyVP8

[Keras]

16 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, because the Church is never promised the Land of Israel.  Nowhere does that exist in the NT.  That is just more utter nonsense.   TRUE Christians don't believe what you believe.   Your fraudulent, anti-Christ theology brings a reproach upon Christ

Really? So I'm not a true Christian because I don't believe what you do?  Your rant and  nasty accusations show your true colors. 

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever. 

Romans 9:26 In the same place that Israel was told they were no longer sons of Mine, they [Christian people] will be called children of the Living God. 

2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The second coming, the second advent of Christ with the raptured saints;

Another direct contradiction of scripture. Jesus Returns will His angel army, that's all. Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31, Revelation 19:14,   Other prophecies about the Return in glory may say 'holy ones or saints', but that can and must mean angels, as the 3 quotes I present here plainly say. 

[Guest shiloh357]

13 hours ago, Keras said:

Really? So I'm not a true Christian because I don't believe what you do?  

 

REAL Christians don't twist and pervert Scripture to support religious bigotry as you do.

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Your rant and  nasty accusations show your true colors. 

It shows that I don't have any fear in confronting false teachers.

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Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever. 

Which is not talking about Gentile Christians, but the righteous of biblical Israel, in that verse.

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Romans 9:26 In the same place that Israel was told they were no longer sons of Mine, they [Christian people] will be called children of the Living God. 

You add to the Bible, just like false teachers always do, by putting your parenthetical redefinitions and pretending they are part of Scripture.  If one bothers to read the whole of Pauls' argument all the way through to end of chapter 11, God put a partial and temporary blindness upon them.   He did not reject them in deference to Gentile believers and Israel will be saved. 

False teachers like to pervert the bible and project their hatred of Jews on to the Bible.  I am just here to make sure that no one agrees with you and that the true Christians will see your vile, false teachings for that they are: ANATHEMA.

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by shiloh357

[Keras]

14 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

You add to the Bible, just like false teachers always do, by putting your parenthetical redefinitions and pretending they are part of Scripture.  If one bothers to read the whole of Pauls' argument all the way through to end of chapter 11, God put a partial and temporary blindness upon them.   He did not reject them in deference to Gentile believers and Israel will be saved. 

Ethnic Israel is mentioned in the very next verse, as a separate entity.  Only a remnant of the Jews will be saved. 

The 'All Israel' that will be saved, are the Israel of God, every faithful Christian person.

14 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

False teachers like to pervert the bible and project their hatred of Jews on to the Bible.  I am just here to make sure that no one agrees with you and that the true Christians will see your vile, false teachings for that they are: ANATHEMA.

It's plain who has the hatred.  You have a very nasty and unchristian attitude against anyone who challenges your beliefs.

The correct way to respond to a challenge, is to refute it with scripture. That you don't do that is very telling against your beliefs. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Keras

[HAZARD]

15 hours ago, Keras said:

 

 

Really? So I'm not a true Christian because I don't believe what you do?  Your rant and  nasty accusations show your true colors. 

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever. 

Romans 9:26 In the same place that Israel was told they were no longer sons of Mine, they [Christian people] will be called children of the Living God. 

Another direct contradiction of scripture. Jesus Returns will His angel army, that's all. Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31, Revelation 19:14,   Other prophecies about the Return in glory may say 'holy ones or saints', but that can and must mean angels, as the 3 quotes I present here plainly say. 

Jesus will return at His second advent with the armies of Heaven and with His saints who had been raptured. Jesus will personally kill the antichrist and They, the saints, His saints, will take over the rulership of the governments of the Earth. Angels will not rule over the people of the earth, Christs saints, under Jesus will rule, (Rev. 2:26-27);  

V. 26, And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

V. 27, And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

1 Thess. 3:13, To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Jude 1:14, And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

[Guest shiloh357]

34 minutes ago, Keras said:

The 'All Israel' that will be saved, are the Israel of God, every faithful Christian person.

No, it refers to the Jewish remnant of saved Jews, not every believer.

Quote

The correct way to respond to a challenge, is to refute it with scripture. That you don't do that is very telling against your belies. 

I am working from the Scripture you present.   That is because I don't pit the Bible against itself.  I simply correct your gross misinterpretations.

Quote

It's plain who has the hatred.  You have a very nasty and unchristian attitude against anyone who challenges your beliefs.

No, my posts simply reflect of level of honesty that you can't face up to.  

Edited March 31, 2018 by shiloh357

[Keras]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, it refers to the Jewish remnant of saved Jews, not every believer.

The Jewish people are from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin + some Levites.

It is impossible that the other 10 tribes have rejoined yet, per Ezekiel 37. The Jews are not as many as the sands of the sea, or have fulfilled the blessings of Jacob and Moses.  Jesus came for the lost tribes of Israel, Matthew 15:24  and His mission succeeded as they, the Western nations have become Christian. Sadly we have fallen back, so lets hope Jesus Returns soon!

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I am working from the Scripture you present.   That is because I don't pit the Bible against itself.  I simply correct your gross misinterpretations.

Correction without scriptural proof, is worthless. In fact your unpleasant way of 'correction' counts against you.