Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[seeking the lost]

On 5/20/2003 at 2:43 AM, RCruise said:

Hi Brother George!

 

Since no one has responded to this one as yet, I thought I would throw something in here. Typically, the way most people refer to "mid-trib" rapture as to the timing according to prophecy and signs in the Bible, I would fall in this category. Yet, I reference according to strict Biblical reference actually puts me as "Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath". I believe any who believe in the termed "Mid-Trib" rapture are actually in agreement with my own beliefs and the simplistic Biblical outline also it's just we use differing terms.

 

Of late, I simply say I am a "First Resurrectionist". In other words; I'll be either pulled out of the grave (if dead) or, translated / "caught up in the air" (if still alive) after the dead go up first. Keeping it to the simplicity of tems of "First Resurrection" makes it easily identifiable Biblically. For anyone who has studied any at all on their own know that we shall not be "raptured" before that day. Then it becomes easier to point to all the verses which point to the "First Resurrection".

 

Re 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,

and judgment was given unto them: and I saw

the souls of them that were beheaded for the

witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and

which had not worshipped the beast, neither his

image, neither had received his mark upon

their foreheads, or in their hands; and they

lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

Re 20:5

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the

thousand years were finished. This is the first

resurrection.

 

Re 20:6

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first

resurrection: on such the second death hath no

power, but they shall be priests of God and of

Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand

years.

 

As can be seen in these three simple verses, those who are counted in the "First Resurrection" have gotten a victory over the beast, his image, and his "Mark". The "Pre-Trib" theory so loosly tied with alter-interpretations of unrelated scriptures that do not directly speak of the "First Resurrection" or even these end times, believes that we the Church are gone before the terrible reign of the antichrist, the beast or his mark. How they get "out of here" prior to the "First Resurrection" is a mystery even greater than the loosely tied unrelated Scriptures they try to prove their case with.

 

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Just some food for thought folks.

 

God Bless.

Greetings RC

It is good to tie the rapture to a resurrection.  The first resurrection is limited and for the purpose of reigning on the earth.  I am thinking that all the dead in Christ will rise, such as in the second resurrection, before the rapture.  The dead in Christ shall rise first and then we who are alive and remain are caught up together with them.  If only part are raised and many left in the grave a rapture here would have those raptured preceding the majority of those who are dead in Christ.

[Spock]

Wow, I browsed this thread to try to read reasons and support for a MID TRIB RAPTURE and as far as I can tell, not one person responded giving such proof. Yet there are almost 300 posts on this thread. Amazing.

So, let me do this....SEARCHER BEWARE.....there is nothing on this thread related to Mid Trib rapture, better go elsewhere. Maybe google “Mid Trib rapture” will get you something. 

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Spock said:

 

Hi Spock,

Hi bro, long time no see. Hope all`s well. Just read your comments in the prophecy section and see that you believe in the pre-trib. rapture. That`s great.

regards, Marilyn.

[Spock]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Hi bro, long time no see. Hope all`s well. Just read your comments in the prophecy section and see that you believe in the pre-trib. rapture. That`s great.

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

im always questioning my beliefs though....never want to think i know it all and perhaps have not considered all the facts.

hey Marilyn, do me a HUGE favor at your convenience and give me your feedback regarding on my Mid Trib rapture thread  i laid out in the prophecy thread. I know you disagree with it so please tell me why you do. Show me why this can’t be. I need to know what I’m missing here. Thanks.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Spock

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Spock said:

Hi Marilyn,

im always questioning my beliefs though....never want to think i know it all and perhaps have not considered all the facts.

hey Marilyn, do me a HUGE favor at your convenience and give me your feedback regarding on my Mid Trib rapture thread  i laid out in the prophecy thread. I know you disagree with it so please tell me why you do. Show me why this can’t be. I need to know what I’m missing here. Thanks.

Hi Spock,

Thanks for the invite. Would love to discuss God`s word & interested to see what you have laid out.

Marilyn.

[JohnR7]

On 11/10/2018 at 5:41 PM, seeking the lost said:

The dead in Christ shall rise first and then we who are alive and remain are caught up together with them. 

Rev 20:5 seems to indicate that there is a resurrection before the 1,000 year reign of Christ. We then rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years here on the Earth. 

[JohnR7]

On 2/18/2019 at 8:32 AM, Spock said:

I need to know what I’m missing here.

What you are missing is only the people that are alive at that time can be raptured.  So a "mid" trib rapture only applies to them. What does that have to do with all the people that are not going to be alive at that point in time? 

[seeking the lost]

On 10/16/2020 at 2:04 AM, JohnR7 said:

Rev 20:5 seems to indicate that there is a resurrection before the 1,000 year reign of Christ. We then rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years here on the Earth. 

The first resurrection is limited and specific as to the ones that are being raised and does not include all believers.  Jesus said that those who believe will be raised at the last day which is at the end of the thousand years.  The phrase, the rest of the dead addresses this.

[transmogrified]

 

Although I had this on another thread concerning errors within the pre trib doctrine, many of the same errors occur in a putting forth a mid tribulation rapture. 

Although we don't know the day nor the hour there is a sequence of events, in the sense that one thing has to happen before another thing happens.

So when it says in 1 Thess. 4:16 that '....For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...." 

So looking closely at this we can see that there is an event that must happen before we are caught up or raptured. So it would be wrong to say 'the rapture can happen at any time, there is nothing that has to happen first." because clearly the dead in Christ must rise first before the living are caught up. 

So what does it mean that the dead in Christ must rise first? For them to rise, or be 'caught up' first, what does that mean? It means before they can rise or be raptured, there must be a resurrection from the dead.

So the living saints of course will not need to be resurrected before they rise, because they have not died and are still alive, but for the dead in Christ to rise, they must first be physically resurrected. 

Paul says '...we shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all (both dead and living) be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump.

There are five things to note in the mystery Paul was revealing to us. 

1) We shall not  all sleep (There will be some believers that will be alive when this happens)

2) We shall all be changed (All the dead believers and the living believers will be changed)

3) In a moment (All believers, dead and alive will be changed (get glorified bodies) at the same time, in a moment)

4) In the twinkling of an eye (Making it clear that the time involved for all believers to receive their glorified bodies does not happen over an extended period of time, but in the twinkling of an eye) 

5) At the last trump (making it known these events will not take place until the last trumpet sounds)

Seeing the resurrection of the dead in Christ must take place before the rapture, we know there can be no rapture before the resurrection. Its not that we know the day nor the hour, but we know that one specific event (the resurrection) must take place before the rapture (catching away) can occur.

So when does the scripture say the believers will be resurrected? Lets look at 4 verses in John 6 to see not only when this resurrection will happen, but who will be included in this resurrection.

John 6:39 -"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." 

1) John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 

2) John 6:44 -"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

3) John 6:54 -"Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

The first reference says that all whom God has given to Christ he will raise them up (or resurrect) them at the last day.

So lets look seriously at the first reference....it says ALL those who God has given to Christ will be raised at the last day. Remember Paul used the same words when he said we shall ALL be changed in a moment. So ALL does not mean PART of the believers will be resurrected at one time and then the other PART resurrected at the last day, it means ALL those who God gave to Christ will be resurrected in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump.

 

So lets compare this to the Pre Trib doctrine that only PART of the believers will be resurrected before the tribulation and the other PART of the believers will be resurrected at the last day. Does this correlate according what both Paul and Jesus have said? No, it does not. They both said ALL believers would be resurrected at one time.

Pre-trib doctrine asserts that the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only refers to the believers from the time of Pentecost until the pre trib rapture, but does agree with what Jesus said in the first reference? No. The phrase 'All those who God has given me,' would not mean 'the believers that had died from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture.' That would be a PART of those who God had given to Christ, but it would not be ALL those who God had given to Christ.

How many believers has God given to Christ?

John 17:9-10 "...I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine..."

Here Jesus is saying that all those that belong to God are his. In other words, Jesus is saying he will resurrect all God's people on the last day, for these are the one's he said that God gave to him. Do God's people consist of just those who have lived from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture? No, of course not. God's people have existed from the time of Adam and will continue to the end of this age. 

Lets look even further to see if the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only pertains to believers from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture. Even saints who die in the tribulation are said to 'die in the Lord'

Rev. 14:12-13 "...Here is the patience of the saints...Blessed are the dead which 'die in the Lord from henceforth..." It is apparent that dying in the Lord is the same as dying in Christ, for Jesus is the Lord.

But lets look at some other scriptures to confirm what is being said. Who did Jesus say would be resurrected in John 5:28-29?

'...the hour is coming in which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth; they THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life..."

Did he say the hour was coming in which those who have died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre trib rapture would be resurrected? No, again he said ALL those in the graves would be resurrected and he identified them as 'those who have done good..' Are the only saints who have done good the ones who died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre-trib rapture? No, of course not...all his saints are 'those who have done good, not just certain ones.

Lets look at some other scriptures  of what happens at the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11:18

"The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..." 

So first look that the seventh trumpet is called the time of the dead that they should be judged. The words 'the time of the dead,' means the time when all the dead will be resurrected. The words 'the dead' does not just mean the righteous dead, as anyone can see there are dead people who were good and there are dead people who were wicked. This is the same resurrection Jesus was talking about in John 5:28-29...this is the time when ALL those who are the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...in other words, the time of the dead mentioned here is the resurrection of all the dead, both good and bad, and is also the time they will be judged as it says, the time of the dead that they should be judged.

But in the pre trib doctrine the saints have already been resurrected, judged and rewarded. This is not true, as the scripture here states that it is at the seventh trumpet that all the saints will be rewarded as stated here:

Rev. 11:18 "....and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..."

So this is a completely different scenario than the pre-trib allegations. Here it states there is one resurrection at the seventh trumpet in which God would give reward unto:

1) His servants the prophets

2) And to the saints

3) To them that fear his name, small and great

Here we see the time frame for this resurrection to be at the seventh trumpet and we also see that this is not specific to a certain grouping of saints, but one that would include all the saints who were in the graves whether they were small or great, plus it includes the prophets which means it is not even restricted to New Testament saints, but from the time of Adam down to when this seventh trumpet sounds which is at the Second Coming, at the end of this age.

There are more scriptures that confirm this:

In Matthew 13 Jesus gives us the parable of the wheat and the tares. He says let both the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest...He does not say 'let the tares grow until the end of the age but let the wheat be caught away before the end of the age. No, he says let them both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST.   Matthew 13:37-43 he gives the interpretation of it so we don't have to speculate as to what it means. He explains it here:

1) He that sowed the good seed is the Son of man

2) The field is the world

3) The good seed are the children of the kingdom 

4) The tares are the children of the wicked one

5) The enemy that sowed the tares is the devil

6) The harvest is the end of the world (age)

So lets see how Jesus said this would play out in verse 40:

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of THIS WORLD.' (AGE) The word 'world' is better translated 'age' in that the world is not destroyed at the second coming. But notice that he specifically says the tares will be gathered and burned in the fire, not at the end of the NEXT AGE, which would be at the end of the  1000 year reign, but at the end of THIS AGE, which would be at the Second Coming. But also note that this is the same time the wheat is gathered into the barn as it says in verse 43 "THEN (at the same time) shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father..."

So again we have a completely different scenario being depicted than that which is shown in the Pre trib doctrine.

We have here the wicked and the righteous being rewarded at the same time AT THE END OF THE AGE, whereas the pre-trib doctrine states that some saints have been rewarded BEFORE the end of the age, and no wicked are punished until the end of the NEXT AGE...which would be the end of the 1000 years.

So lets look at another scripture in Matt. 13:47

"Again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered  of every kind; Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world, the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked form among the just and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Here again we have a scenario that is going to take place at the end of the age...not at the end of the next age. The distinction between 'this age' and 'the age which is to come' is shown when Jesus said they 'have no forgiveness in this age nor that which is  to come...' meaning they will have no forgiveness at the Second Coming or at the White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years. But continuing on here notice what happens:

1) The net is let down one time and one time only

2) It is not drawn to shore until is is full of good and bad fish

3) When it was drawn to shore the good were separated from the bad

So consider:

1) The pre-trib doctrine has a net that is let down one time before the tribulation to pick up PART of the good fish, i.e. only those who have lived and died from Pentecost until the alleged pre trib rapture.

2)Then at the end of the tribulation the net is let down again to gather up another PART of the good fish which allegedly consists of the Old Testament saints.

3)They have no net let down for any bad fish until the end of the age to come, which is at the end of the 1000 years.

There is hardly any resemblance of what Jesus said as compared to what the Pre trib doctrine puts forth.

Jesus said the net was let down only one time...pre-trib says the net was let down 3 times.  Jesus said this net was let down once at the end of the age...pre trib has a net before the end of the age, another one at the end of the age, and another one at the end of the 1000 years. Pre trib has no separation of the good and bad fish at the end of this age, for they believe no wicked will be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. 

  There are many other scriptures to look at, but this post is probably too long already....Bless you all- Gary 

[RonaldBruno]

Rev. 11:15 The Seventh Trumpet is the Last Trumpet
The one event that is the key to understanding when the Church is taken up is at the Last Trumpet. (1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & 1 Cor. 15:52)
The Pre-Tribbers MUST therefore reject the 7th Trumpet as being the last trumpet. If the 7th is the last, then their whole scenario is flawed. It means we must endure through the Seals and six trumpets, yet we will avoid the wrath of God which comes in the Seven Bowls. The problem with Post-Tribbers is, they insist that the Church much endure the entire GT or die in the midst. God does not appoint us to wrath though but will suffer some of the Great Tribulation (or those days prior to the rapture). If there was a trumpet after the 7^th, then it would be the 8^th. If before the 7^th, it wouldn’t be the last.

Many things that support this trumpet as the last is that many things that you would expect happen occur at this time:
1. The mystery of God is revealed (Rev. 10:7 refers to the 7th trumpet) This mystery is spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:51-53, which speaks of the last trumpet. “but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.”Rev. 10:7
2. The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's. Evidently He just appeared to cause this to happen. (Rev. 11:15)
3. The dead are resurrected and judged also. (Rev. 11:18)
4. we receive rewards according to our deeds. (Rev. 11:18)
5. The Temple of God is open in heaven. (Rev. 11:19)                                                                                                 6. Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath are released!

Matt. 24:31 is the same Trumpet referred to in 1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & 1 Cor. 15:52 & Rev. 11:15.
 As for Rev. 10:7, as previously mentioned is a reference to the 7^th Trumpet: Do you know what the "mystery" is that will be revealed at this time? The mystery is what our resurrected bodies will be like. We know we will be like Christ, but only eye witnesses gave seen His resurrected body and even they did not know what His body was fully capable of. Appearing, disappearing, entering in and out of the spiritual realm into the physical, ascending ... might as well say flying like angels. At that moment of our resurrection _ wow _ the answer to the question _ the experience everyone has been waiting _ that is the mystery.

----------

The Gap Theory (based on Daniel 9:24-27)

 

"Seventy weeks are determined ...
>God ordains a specific time frame, a prophecy announcing the arrival of Christ, the Savior, the Messiah, whom since the beginning was promised. God is sovereign, He knows the future. Did something happen that changed His mind, something He did not expect - forcing His Hand to change plans and extend, (put a gap in) the last week of the prophecy for 2000 years? NO! He knew exactly what was going to happen! The Messiah came in the last week. The week wasn't completed - didn't have to be. It was accurately stated that He would be cut off<

...concerning thy people and concerning thy holy city
>This was a message TO the Israelites and Jerusalem - not to the world! <

...to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins,
>For those who believed it was finished, their eternity was sealed in Christ. When Jesus said, "It is finished", that is what He meant. In heaven, outside of time, death was defeated. On earth, death was defeated die believers.<

... and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
> The Law was fuffilled. A way for Man was then made available to be reconciled to God.<

... and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
>Jesus is righteous. He brought his righteousness and imputed it to believers.<

... ‘and to’ seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.
> and to means “in order to” or “to begin to” seal up prophecy. The disciples began that process. The New Testament was written, finished and sealed up.

…Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until the Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and threescore and two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.