Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[ghtan]

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Probably because the Lord is intending for everyone on earth to see these two witnesses resurrected and ascend into Heaven as further testimony.  Remember, the whole world (probably via the major news networks) is viewing these two guys dead on the street and celebrating them being bumped off. But then they are resurrected right before their eyes and ascend to heaven, much to their surprise.  A lot more dramatic than just having these guys simply disappear or get snatched away.  Don't you get that from the natural reading of Revelation 11 regarding them?  

Harpazo is not the word used of their ascension, compared to the child being caught up in Revelation 12. Nor is Harpazo the word used when John is told to "come up here".  The Greek word anabaino is used which is more closely associated with rising, ascending, or being borne up.   Harpazo is a forcible snatching away, as if someone is grabbed and yanked away.  Totally different meaning.  If you were standing on the street and were within feet of getting run over by a semi truck, you would probably prefer I were to harpazo you than anabaino you, or just lift you up.  I'll let you decide on that one. 

Likewise, if all hell is about to break out on the earth, I would prefer the Lord harpazo me out of here, and quick!  Which is what He says He will do (1 Thessalonians 4:17).  Praise be to Him!

Don't you think that the witnesses being called lamp stands is appropriate?  These guys are the testimony of God, to the people on the earth.  Isn't that what the church is supposed to be here and now?  Yeshua said we are to be His witnesses (individually), right? (Acts 1:8) Same Greek word used for witnesses in that passage and in Revelation 11:3.   At least that is what I get from Yeshua regarding each of us being salt and light (Matthew 5:15) where lamp stand is also used. The same Greek word lychnia (lamp stand) is used which is from the root word lychnos, a lamp, guide, witness, testimony.

Yes, that is a good point. The fact that the ascension of two witnesses will be visible does weigh against Rev 11 being the rapture.

I agree with you that “lampstand” is appropriate to describe the two witnesses without equating them with the church despite 1:20. But interestingly you wish to equate the male child with the church by linking harpazo to 1 Thess 4:17. Isn’t that somewhat inconsistent?

Instead, context explains why harpazo is used in Rev 12. Given that Satan is pictured about to devour the male child - which you agree does represent Jesus - harpazo aptly describes him being snatched from the threat to his life. It is similarly more appropriate - and adds dramatic effect which is common in prophecy - than saying the child walks away or is simply lifted away.

[OldCoot]

4 hours ago, ghtan said:

I agree with you that “lampstand” is appropriate to describe the two witnesses without equating them with the church despite 1:20. But interestingly you wish to equate the male child with the church by linking harpazo to 1 Thess 4:17. Isn’t that somewhat inconsistent?

I don't think so.  The Church is the Body of Messiah (1 Cor 12:27).  The Church is to reign with a rod of iron along with Yeshua (Rev 2:26-27).  So Rev 12 does represent Yeshua.... His Body the church.  The church was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Jerusalem on Shavuot (Pentacost).  Jerusalem (representing all Israel) is the Wife of God (Ezekiel 16). The church has experienced growth and development all this time. It is now ready to be born.  And in several places of the OT, God shows how at the beginning of the labor pains, Israel gives birth to the male child which is a nation as Peter told us in chapter 2 of his first letter. And that those labor pains are associated in the OT with the Time of Jacob's (Israel) Trouble, or what many would commonly refer to as the 70th week of Daniel or the Great Tribulation.

Those two witnesses are also called Olive Trees in Rev 11.  And here:

Zechariah 4:11-14 (NKJV Strong's,) 11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” 12 And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?”
13 Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?”
And I said, “No, my lord.”
14 So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”

Not in any way associated with the Church in that passage, yet clearly associated with the two witnesses of Rev 11. These Olive Trees stand at the temple in Jerusalem in both Zechariah and Revelation.

[ghtan]

18 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I don't think so.  The Church is the Body of Messiah (1 Cor 12:27).  The Church is to reign with a rod of iron along with Yeshua (Rev 2:26-27).  So Rev 12 does represent Yeshua.... His Body the church.  The church was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Jerusalem on Shavuot (Pentacost).  Jerusalem (representing all Israel) is the Wife of God (Ezekiel 16). The church has experienced growth and development all this time. It is now ready to be born.  And in several places of the OT, God shows how at the beginning of the labor pains, Israel gives birth to the male child which is a nation as Peter told us in chapter 2 of his first letter. And that those labor pains are associated in the OT with the Time of Jacob's (Israel) Trouble, or what many would commonly refer to as the 70th week of Daniel or the Great Tribulation.

Those two witnesses are also called Olive Trees in Rev 11.  And here:

Zechariah 4:11-14 (NKJV Strong's,) 11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” 12 And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?”
13 Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?”
And I said, “No, my lord.”
14 So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”

Not in any way associated with the Church in that passage, yet clearly associated with the two witnesses of Rev 11. These Olive Trees stand at the temple in Jerusalem in both Zechariah and Revelation.

If we start to import images from other parts of the bible, there will be no end to it and we can probably make Rev say anything we want it to say. That is why there is so much confusion over Rev. I believe in the natural reading and that Rev like every other book in the bible is self-explanatory. As I said previously, end-time Israel does not give birth to the end-time church. I see the inconsistency but some may not. That is OK; everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the conversation.

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, ghtan said:

If we start to import images from other parts of the bible, there will be no end to it and we can probably make Rev say anything we want it to say. That is why there is so much confusion over Rev. I believe in the natural reading and that Rev like every other book in the bible is self-explanatory. As I said previously, end-time Israel does not give birth to the end-time church. I see the inconsistency but some may not. That is OK; everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the conversation.

I understand. No problem. This isn't like some issue that is conditional on salvation.  The end goal is the same, we just disagree on the events and the timing.  And I am fond of saying.... we all probably have some or most of the actual events wrong and probably will end up with egg on our face.   God Bless you and yours!  And thanks to you as well.  

[WilliamL]

On 9/21/2017 at 7:24 AM, OldCoot said:

The Church is to reign with a rod of iron along with Yeshua (Rev 2:26-27).

This passage of Revelation speaks of the "overcomers" who will thus reign. You equate these with the whole Church. But the promises to the overcomers are greater than to the ascended "great multitude" of Rev. 7:9 that "stand before the throne."

Just as there were differences in authority under Mosaic Law -- kohen, Levites, firstborn of the tribes, and the 70 elders, so there will be -- and are now -- differences in authority granted to those in the Church.

[OldCoot]

That requires a definition of what is being “overcome” for you to make that distinction.  

[WilliamL]

What must be overcome? For starters, [1] the flesh.

Second, the desires of the soul.

Third, the self-centered spirit.

All summed up in 1 John 2:16, which itself refers back to the three tempations of Eve:

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world—[1] the lust of the flesh, [2] the lust of the eyes, and [3] the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

Gen. 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was [1] good for food, that it was [2] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree [3] desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

 

 

[OldCoot]

Well, since the passage in Revelation 2 does not quite delineate what exactly is meant by "overcome", and the verses you mentioned didn't quite hit the "overcome" topic,  we have to resort to how it was used elsewhere in scripture to get a general idea of what is meant.  One of the best examples is here....

1 John 5:4 (NKJV) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

1 John 4:2-4 (NKJV) By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

So it would appear the those who overcome are all those who are of God thru the Messiah.  Of course, that doesn't mean everyone who is in the local Assembly.  One can even be baptized, a member of the local congregation, etc and still not be in the Body of Messiah.  That is thru faith in who Yeshua is and the finished work of redemption He provided.

I am probably stretching a little here, but your counter to the question seems to suggest a works righteousness methodology.    All of those things you mention are important to tackle, but no one can tackle them unless they are redeemed already.  And that can only be done by faith in Yeshua and the redemption He provided thru His death, burial, and resurrection.  No works, no efforts, nothing else.

Edited September 20, 2018 by OldCoot

[WilliamL]

17 hours ago, OldCoot said:

So it would appear the those who overcome are all those who are of God thru the Messiah.  Of course, that doesn't mean everyone who is in the local Assembly.  One can even be baptized, a member of the local congregation, etc and still not be in the Body of Messiah.  That is thru faith in who Yeshua is and the finished work of redemption He provided.

I am probably stretching a little here, but your counter to the question seems to suggest a works righteousness methodology.  

Yes, you are stretching. And totally ignoring the main focus of my posts, being, that God and Christ grant and will grant different levels of authority to those in the Church. Or do you claim that everyone having the Spirit is endowed with the whole fivefold ministry??

74% of Americans are overweight, including 36.5 % who are obese. I seriously doubt, from my observations, that these figures are much different in the Church.

Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control.

"self-control": ἐγκράτεια/egkrateia: self-control in diet and chastity; temperance.

So I put to you the question: since a fruit of the Spirit is self-control in diet, and so few of the American Church has shown such self control, would you say that God will reject all of these in the Rapture? Or would you say, that those who have availed themselves of the Spirit to fully overcome/conquere their desires will receive greater authority than those who have not fully overcome?

Matt. 13:23 “But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Here Jesus tells us that all will not be equally fruitful in the Way. Do you think that all will receive the same rewards and Divine authority regardless of their degree of fruitfulness?

 

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by WilliamL

[OldCoot]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yes, you are stretching. And totally ignoring the main focus of my posts, being, that God and Christ grant and will grant different levels of authority to those in the Church. Or do you claim that everyone having the Spirit is endowed with the whole fivefold ministry??

You are confusing what goes on in the here and now within the body compared to actual responsibilities during the millennial kingdom.  There may indeed be some similarities, but there is no scriptural support for who gets what position in the millennial kingdom.  The only assertion that can be supported is the concept of varying rewards given at the Bema seat judgement of the believers.

Since fruits of the spirit here and now has no equivalence with the rank or position of various believers in the millennial kingdom, there is no point in my going down the rabbit trail you are.

Edited September 21, 2018 by OldCoot