Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[WilliamL]

On 9/20/2018 at 11:16 PM, OldCoot said:

fruits of the spirit here and now has no equivalence with the rank or position of various believers in the millennial kingdom

This is a clear denial of the Word. Jesus said that some would rule 10 cities, others only one. Paul talked about various types of crowns that could be earned. Etc. etc.

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

This is a clear denial of the Word. Jesus said that some would rule 10 cities, others only one. Paul talked about various types of crowns that could be earned. Etc. etc.

Interesting take on the passage of Luke 19:12-27.  Now, following the requirement in scripture that a matter can only be settled by the testimony of two or more witnesses, please substantiate your claim that it literally applies to amount of ruling authority in the millennial kingdom from the OT, the second witness.

Regarding the crowns, scripture also says we will cast them before the Lord.

Edited September 24, 2018 by OldCoot

[WilliamL]

On 9/20/2018 at 11:16 PM, OldCoot said:

fruits of the spirit here and now has no equivalence with the rank or position of various believers in the millennial kingdom

On 9/24/2018 at 10:54 AM, OldCoot said:

following the requirement in scripture that a matter can only be settled by the testimony of two or more witnesses, please substantiate your claim

Paul clearly shows here that in the resurrection, there will be different levels of rewards:

1 Cor. 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward [lit. wages]. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Thus salvation will be for all of the faithful, but there will be rewards above and beyond salvation, based upon one's works while in the flesh. Other verses say the same:

1 Cor. 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward/wages according to his own labour.

Matt. 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward/wages; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward/wages. 42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward/wages.

Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

1 Tim. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward/wages with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.  16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Dan. 12:13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance/recompense at the end of the days.”

All of these scriptures say that the faithful are to receive varying levels of recompense, including levels of authority, based upon their works while in the flesh.

[OldCoot]

1 minute ago, WilliamL said:

Paul clearly shows here that in the resurrection, there will be different levels of rewards:

1 Cor. 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward [lit. wages]. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Thus salvation will be for all of the faithful, but there will be rewards above and beyond salvation, based upon one's works while in the flesh. Other verses say the same:

1 Cor. 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward/wages according to his own labour.

Matt. 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward/wages; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward/wages. 42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward/wages.

Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

1 Tim. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward/wages with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.  16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Dan. 12:13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance/recompense at the end of the days.”

All of these scriptures say that the faithful are to receive varying levels of recompense, including levels of authority, based upon their works while in the flesh.

Nope: Daniel is not talking about varying degrees of authority, just rewards.  

You still have to substantiate the case from the OT also.  

[WilliamL]

1 minute ago, OldCoot said:

Nope: Daniel is not talking about varying degrees of authority, just rewards.  

You still have to substantiate the case from the OT also.   

Says what Scripture? The Bible says no such thing, you are making up your own doctrine.

Recompense includes authority, as Jesus clearly stated in the passage in Luke.

[OldCoot]

18 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Says what Scripture? The Bible says no such thing, you are making up your own doctrine.

Recompense includes authority, as Jesus clearly stated in the passage in Luke.

Acts 17.  Berea. They searched the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true.  All they had was OT.  The standard therefore is every position one espouses must be confirmed in both NT and OT.

That comports to the Torah mandate that a matter can only be established on the testimony of two or more independent witnesses.  

So we have both the Torah requirement and the example of how it is applied in Acts.

Edited October 1, 2018 by OldCoot

[WilliamL]

45 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Acts 17.  Berea. They searched the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true.  All they had was OT.  The standard therefore is every position one espouses must be confirmed in both NT and OT.

That comports to the Torah mandate that a matter can only be established on the testimony of two or more independent witnesses.  

So we have both the Torah requirement and the example of how it is applied in Acts.

"The standard" according to you only, not anything that Jesus or the Apostles required. Two witnesses from Scripture is two witnesses, whether from OT or NT or both.

As far a "having the Torah requirement," nobody in OT times had any NT witness, so by your reasoning that means that those folks were not able to confirm anything at all! so the Torah mandate was therefore unusable for 1500 years, because "The standard therefore is every position one espouses must be confirmed in both NT and OT."

 

 

 

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

"The standard" according to you only, not anything that Jesus or the Apostles required. Two witnesses from Scripture is two witnesses, whether from OT or NT or both.

As far a "having the Torah requirement," nobody in OT times had any NT witness, so by your reasoning that means that those folks were not able to confirm anything at all! so the Torah mandate was therefore unusable for 1500 years, because "The standard therefore is every position one espouses must be confirmed in both NT and OT."

 

 

 

You err.  The folks in NT times had the Apostles teaching (which became the NT) and the OT.  The same thing we have today.  The NT is in the OT, concealed.  The OT is in the NT, revealed.  One can only base sound doctrinal positions using both.

Edited October 1, 2018 by OldCoot

[WilliamL]

On 10/1/2018 at 3:44 PM, OldCoot said:

On 10/1/2018 at 1:43 PM, WilliamL said:

"The standard" according to you only, not anything that Jesus or the Apostles required. Two witnesses from Scripture is two witnesses, whether from OT or NT or both.

As far a "having the Torah requirement," nobody in OT times had any NT witness, so by your reasoning that means that those folks were not able to confirm anything at all! so the Torah mandate was therefore unusable for 1500 years, because "The standard therefore is every position one espouses must be confirmed in both NT and OT."

You err.  The folks in NT times had the Apostles teaching (which became the NT) and the OT.  The same thing we have today.  The NT is in the OT, concealed.  The OT is in the NT, revealed.  One can only base sound doctrinal positions using both.

If you will actually read what I said in the red...

You completely misrepresented what I said, and thereby dodged any legitimate answer.

To repeat the point, since no one in OT times "had the Apostles' teaching," therefore none of the OT prophets were able to confirm any doctrine at all...by your reasoning. God's words notwithstanding.

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by WilliamL

[OldCoot]

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

If you will actually read what I said in the red...

You completely misrepresented what I said, and thereby dodged any legitimate answer.

To repeat the point, since no one in OT times "had the Apostles' teaching," therefore none of the OT prophets were able to confirm any doctrine at all...by your reasoning. God's words notwithstanding.

 

Hold onto that thought.  It might just pan out some day.