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Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture


George

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You did say "God has used his Word to give truth, and he has also used his Word as a stumbling block. Understanding can only be given from above." Thanks for suggesting I may be on the stumbling block end of receiving God's word; I've heard similar implications applied to me when I don't agree with other's doctrines.  :(

Hi Larry 2

No I am not suggesting that you personally have received the word as a stumbling block.  Let me explain.

When I first started my enquiries of the Lord, I went straight to the source, the holy bible.  I did not go to a church and receive a doctrine already laid out stating that if i don't accept it the way they present it, then I'm out.  No, I knew nothing of doctrines, and divisions in beliefs, and started my journey as a little child knowing nothing and relying solely on the scriptures to teach me.  Along the way, because I was still young in the word, things were unclear to me, until I read a little more, and then a little more then verses started making sense.  When I finally got to reading the OT, after finishing the New Testament, doors really started opening for me.  This did not happen overnight, but over time, many years going back and forth that I could relate the OT prophesies to things spoken of in the New testament and connect them.  I realised that the world was not coming to an end at Jesus return as I first thought, but that there is a rest period of 1000 years where the Lamb will have dominion over the nations.  This is where the Lion will eat straw, and a child will live to a hundred years.  In other words, the more I studied with eagerness to learn straight from the source, the more was opened to me.  I had lots of questions, of course, but over time, the scriptures started explaining themselves as a picture was emerging.

So if we, including myself, just focus on a few scriptures without putting all the other ones together, then the Word will of course be a stumbling block for us, because the picture is only partly read.  I have learn't since from coming on to these forums that there are many doctrines and that they don't all harmonise with what I have found personally from the scriptures.  I compare always to what's written in the book as a whole, that same book that I have searched diligently through because I love to seek truth.

  The water of life is given freely to anyone that wants to drink of it.  We are going to make mistakes along the way, but if the heart is sincere, then the "spirit of truth" will correct us and guide us into the right direction. We are going through an ever learning process, sometimes three steps forward, then 2 steps back, until all the information given to us is absorbed into our understanding, then we move forward.

The spirit of truth is in the words of the scriptures as this is our food given to us from God.  We are allowed to reason with one another and discuss, but all must be done in love.  If God has shown you something and you show me, and I find it harmonises with what is written, then this truth is not from you, but from God who gives freely, and visa versa based on the very scriptures he has given us.

 

 

 

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Again Dear Sister, I don’t know your thinking on the Song of Solomon being a picture of Christ courting His bride. He is referred to as “beloved,” and her as “love.”

Notice what the Beloved said, "Rise up, My love, My fair one, and come away (Son 2:10). To me they are the very ones with Jesus when He takes His own Crown (Rev 4:2) prior to the Temptation to come upon all the world who faithfully keep the word of God (Rev 3:10), and those that were faithful unto death (Rev 2:10), and of course these are them redeemed to God by Jesus’ blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation according to Rev 5:9.

Yes, this woman Solomon is singing about is Zion.

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I see the 144,000 as still being sealed just prior to Jacob's trouble, with even the evil winds being held back until their sealing is complete. Rev 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Now where the bride is said to be of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, these 144,000 are definitely said to be of Israel.

 

Yes the 144K are sealed just prior to Jacob's trouble.  This will kick in the start of the 3 1/2 yr tribulation of the saints also. 

We also know that the saints will be given into the hands of the beast, and the false prophet for 3 1/2 yrs.  I am not just looking at what's going to happen in Israel, but the whole Christian land also.

Daniel 7:21   I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Daniel 7:22   Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:25   And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Now compare please dear brother;

Revelation 11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

  Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

Do you see the "court" being Israel only?, If so, what temple is to be measured if there is no physical temple of God standing there?  We know the false temple will stand there, it is to come, but so far at the time of measuring, there is no temple standing there.

This can only mean one thing.  This temple is spiritual, and all those who worship in the highest place at the altar, are believers.  They will be measured only, but not the rest.

....but Daniel tells us the saints will be worn out for 3 1/2 yrs, and the little horn will make war with them and prevail....so I put two and two together, and see a picture emerging.  Only those in the (spiritual) court will be trodden down by the False prophet.  These must be those saints Daniel was speaking about.  Why are they not measured?  I am seeing with my understanding that those measured at the altar are the 144K.  Remember they follow the Lamb?, and if there is no difference between Jew or gentile concerning Christ, then why is there a division in your eyes that these 144K are of Israel only.  Doesn't that contradict what Christ said?  Is not that giving preference?.  

Just because the 144K are "numbered" out of the 12 tribes of Israel, do we really understand what that means?.  There are no tribes today.  So if the promises given to Israel were taken off them and given to a nation producing fruits, ...the gentiles (concerning the resurrection), then wouldn't it make sense that the gentiles have received Israel's portion?...wouldn't they be counted in with the 12 tribes of Israel now? .... that is to receive their portion?.  Holy Jerusalem will be divided into 12 parts.  If the saints are going to reign with Christ as Kings and Priests, then wouldn't they be allotted a tribe?, and not only that but in charge of whatever tribe is given to them?

I sincerely plead with you to address this, and read it slowly (with those scriptures I gave), and compare to what I am trying to convey here.

 


 

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2 hours ago, Sister said:

Just because the 144K are "numbered" out of the 12 tribes of Israel, do we really understand what that means?.  There are no tribes today. 

Since God had Rev 7:4 written as all the tribes of the children of Israel I figure He knows where they are. "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." 

We don't have to know the full implications of that.

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2 hours ago, Sister said:

We also know that the saints will be given into the hands of the beast, and the false prophet for 3 1/2 yrs.  I am not just looking at what's going to happen in Israel, but the whole Christian land also.

Sister, I’m confused at your thought of the little horn of Dan 7:8  being the false prophet. He is the man of sin, or antichrist as many refer to him. Dan 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The little horn of Dan 8:9 is the false prophet.

I think you’re aware of Acts 15:14   Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. This reveals the time of the Gentiles, and when that is complete, so is the Church Age as it were. Those believing in God from that point still belong to God, but are longer a part of the Church. Their future is Great Tribulation for 3 ½ years of Jacobs trouble, and that is the reign of the beast. Is it judgment for having not believed in God earlier? I have no idea. The time will be shortened so that all life will not end. (Mar13:20).

Now how do I know the timeline? "the time of the end" (Dan 8:17); "the last end;" and "at the time appointed the end shall be" - (Dan 8:19).

The church will have been caught up into heaven prior to all this, and as such they will not suffer the second half of tribulation under the rule of the antichrist.

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2 hours ago, Sister said:

Now compare please dear brother;

Revelation 11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

  Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Do you see the "court" being Israel only?, If so, what temple is to be measured if there is no physical temple of God standing there?  We know the false temple will stand there, it is to come, but so far at the time of measuring, there is no temple standing there.

This can only mean one thing.  This temple is spiritual, and all those who worship in the highest place at the altar, are believers.  They will be measured only, but not the rest.

....but Daniel tells us the saints will be worn out for 3 1/2 yrs, and the little horn will make war with them and prevail....so I put two and two together, and see a picture emerging.  Only those in the (spiritual) court will be trodden down by the False prophet.  These must be those saints Daniel was speaking about.  Why are they not measured?  I am seeing with my understanding that those measured at the altar are the 144K.  Remember they follow the Lamb?, and if there is no difference between Jew or gentile concerning Christ, then why is there a division in your eyes that these 144K are of Israel only.  Doesn't that contradict what Christ said?  Is not that giving preference?.  

Dear Sister, you probably have every bit of revelation, or more on this as I do. Since any temple that is there is inhabited by the abomination of desolation during that second 3 ½ years of tribulation under the reign of the beast, there is little doubt in my mind that God is measuring the true versus the false in believers. What will it be? At best mine would be a guess. Maybe I’m still missing the point you’re attempting to make.

Have a good night.

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Rapture will occur when the seventh Trumpet sounds, Revelation 11:15-19

 

in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52)

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On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2003 at 8:42 AM, George said:

Hello brothers and sisters,

 

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the mid-trib rapture theological position.

 

Why do you believe in a mid trib rapture?

 

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

 

George

 


Critique of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the
 
There are eschatological errors in Marv Rosenthal's book, "The Pre-Wrath Rapture." The following is a cursory view of some, which follow:

The first one is the his placement of the beginning of the Day of the Lord at Rev.8 just before the beginning of the seven trumpet judgements. When the fact of the matter is, God begins His timetable to end this present age at the beginning of the 70th and final week in Dan.9:27, with the advent of the antichrist. Who He allows Satan to bring up out of the Abyss [Hell], in Rev.17:8, the man of lawlessness of 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8 who is revealed after the Church is caught up/apostasia/discessio/depart to be with the Lord. Who then takes us to our Father in heaven, as He promined us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28! The one who confirms a covenant/agreement with many and is the trigger that starts the 70th and final week/seven year tribulation/the Day of the Lord, as Paul states in 2 Thes.2:2.

The fact that Rosenthal sets the beginning of the Day of the Lord at the beginning of the seven trumpet judgements, in Rev.8, ending with the second coming of Christ is the next error. The antichrist is seen in the very first of the seven seals, the first of the four horsemen, riding the white horse, in Rev.6:2, confirming the "he" in Dan.9:27 who confirms the covenant/agreement with many, triggering the 70th and final week/the seven year tribulation/the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord will never end after it begins with the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as pin pointed in 2 Thes.2:1-3, followed immediately with the antichrist being revealed who triggers the seven year tribulation, confirming Dan.9:27. As it also consists of the blessings of God for all His people during the Millennial kingdom of Christ here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6.

Another error is the fact that Rosenthal involves the Church in the tribulation, all the way through six of the seven seals, after the antichrist is revealed as the first of the four horsemen, in the first of the seven seals, which Paul clearly states will not be revealed until after the departure of the Church, in 2 Thes.2:3.

The next error is the fact that the Church has nothing whatever to do with the ministry of Jesus during His entire first advent, He made abundantly clear, was exclusively to the "lost sheep of Israel," in Mt.15:24 as well as in Mt.10:5-6. His Olivet Discourse in Mt.24:4-31 and counterparts of Mk.13 and Lk.21 do not address the Church in any way, because it did not exist before the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

The Church is caught up to be with the Lord in 1 Thes.4:13-18, from where He takes us to be with our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, before the Day of the Lord/the 70th week of Daniel/the seven year tribulation begins, in 2 Thes.2:1-8.

Quasar93

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On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2003 at 3:43 AM, RCruise said:

Hi Brother George!

 

Since no one has responded to this one as yet, I thought I would throw something in here. Typically, the way most people refer to "mid-trib" rapture as to the timing according to prophecy and signs in the Bible, I would fall in this category. Yet, I reference according to strict Biblical reference actually puts me as "Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath". I believe any who believe in the termed "Mid-Trib" rapture are actually in agreement with my own beliefs and the simplistic Biblical outline also it's just we use differing terms.

 

Of late, I simply say I am a "First Resurrectionist". In other words; I'll be either pulled out of the grave (if dead) or, translated / "caught up in the air" (if still alive) after the dead go up first. Keeping it to the simplicity of tems of "First Resurrection" makes it easily identifiable Biblically. For anyone who has studied any at all on their own know that we shall not be "raptured" before that day. Then it becomes easier to point to all the verses which point to the "First Resurrection".

 

Re 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,

and judgment was given unto them: and I saw

the souls of them that were beheaded for the

witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and

which had not worshipped the beast, neither his

image, neither had received his mark upon

their foreheads, or in their hands; and they

lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

Re 20:5

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the

thousand years were finished. This is the first

resurrection.

 

Re 20:6

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first

resurrection: on such the second death hath no

power, but they shall be priests of God and of

Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand

years.

 

As can be seen in these three simple verses, those who are counted in the "First Resurrection" have gotten a victory over the beast, his image, and his "Mark". The "Pre-Trib" theory so loosly tied with alter-interpretations of unrelated scriptures that do not directly speak of the "First Resurrection" or even these end times, believes that we the Church are gone before the terrible reign of the antichrist, the beast or his mark. How they get "out of here" prior to the "First Resurrection" is a mystery even greater than the loosely tied unrelated Scriptures they try to prove their case with.

 

???????????????????????????????????????????????

 

Just some food for thought folks.

 

God Bless.

Greetings RCruise: 

Though your post is quite old as today, it is a case and point of eisegesis that is not possible by the Scriptures.  Because the coming of Jesus for all believers in 1 Thess.4:16-17 is seven years apart from the first resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints in Rev.20:4.  Review the following Scriptural facts:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar93

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I really don't chide anyone over mid-trib, pre-wrath, etc, as many scholars and teachers who espouse such positions are honorable folks that truly love the Lord, but I have pretty much held to a pre-trib position. 

Some would assert that the wrath does not occur till the 7th trumpet, bowl judgements, etc.  Somewhere after the seals.  

I see the entire thing playing out right from the 1st seal.  The Father gives the scroll to Yeshua, the lamb, to open.  When each seal is opened, a particular set of events occur on earth.  My assertion has always been from a logical standpoint, that if Yeshua hadn't opened those seals, then those events would not occur.  Since they are directly related to His opening them, they are in essence directed or allowed by Him and thus equated with judgements.  Judgements do not necessarily mean an affirmative action on the part of God.  They can be allowances of natural or evil event(s).  Even some of the trumpet and bowl events clearly involve natural or evil events also.  When one compares 2 Thessalonians 2:3 with Revelation 6:1-2, regarding the wrath or judgement of God, seems to support that assumption about beginning at the first seal.  

And those seals being opened is a direct result of Messiah Himself opening them.  The trumpets and bowls involve angelic action.  

Consequently, it seems strange that the righteous would have to endure the events that transpire from those seals being opened as opposed to being removed before those events would occur.  It would cause one to wonder, why would Yeshua, by opening the seals, want to expose the righteous to that in light of Mark 21:36?

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On 9/14/2017 at 1:18 PM, OldCoot said:

I really don't chide anyone over mid-trib, pre-wrath, etc, as many scholars and teachers who espouse such positions are honorable folks that truly love the Lord, but I have pretty much held to a pre-trib position. 

Some would assert that the wrath does not occur till the 7th trumpet, bowl judgements, etc.  Somewhere after the seals.  

I see the entire thing playing out right from the 1st seal.  The Father gives the scroll to Yeshua, the lamb, to open.  When each seal is opened, a particular set of events occur on earth.  My assertion has always been from a logical standpoint, that if Yeshua hadn't opened those seals, then those events would not occur.  Since they are directly related to His opening them, they are in essence directed or allowed by Him and thus equated with judgements.  Judgements do not necessarily mean an affirmative action on the part of God.  They can be allowances of natural or evil event(s).  Even some of the trumpet and bowl events clearly involve natural or evil events also.  When one compares 2 Thessalonians 2:3 with Revelation 6:1-2, regarding the wrath or judgement of God, seems to support that assumption about beginning at the first seal.  

And those seals being opened is a direct result of Messiah Himself opening them.  The trumpets and bowls involve angelic action.  

Consequently, it seems strange that the righteous would have to endure the events that transpire from those seals being opened as opposed to being removed before those events would occur.  It would cause one to wonder, why would Yeshua, by opening the seals, want to expose the righteous to that in light of Mark 21:36?

Glad to meet someone who is willing to discuss these views without taking things personally. To me, Seal 5 indicates that the seals are not God's judgments. Those who are slain asks God, "How long until you judge the inhabitants of the earth?" If the seals were God's judgments, wouldn't he reply something like, "What do you think is happening now? I am judging the earth." Instead, God tells them to wait a little longer. It implies that his judgments will follow, likely in the form of the trumpet plagues. The church will be removed before the latter. PS. Can't find Mark 21:36 in my bible.    

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