Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Diaste]

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

What the issue comes down to is the supposed contradiction between the resurrection in Daniel 12 and the statement in Revelation where it says 'The rest of the dead did lived not again until the 1000 years were finished...'

The resurrection in Daniel 12 starts out by saying 'At that time...' these things will happen:

1) Michael stands up

2) There will be time of trouble

3) Thy people shall be delivered

4) Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake..some to life and some to condemnation..

So the key phrase is 'At that time,' such and such will happen. So we ask ourselves, what time is he talking about?

The context is that the man of sin comes to his end and none will help him, then it says 'At that time' such and such will happen.

What pre trib has typically done is to falsely insert a 1000 years gap between the righteous being resurrected and the wicked. So instead of believing both the good and the bad will be resurrected 'at that time,' it is put forth that only the righteous will be resurrected 'at that time' and the wicked dead will be resurrected 'at another time, 1000 years later.'

After these things were shown to Daniel by the angel he asks in Daniel 12:6 "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?'

So notice he does not ask 'How long shall it be to the end of all these wonders, except for the resurrection of the wicked.' He asks how long it will be to the end of these wonders...i.e. the wonders that the angel had just shown him, which included both the righteous and the wicked being resurrected.

He is told that 

'...it shall be for a time, times and a half, and when he (anti Christ) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED.'

So he is saying by the end of the reign of the 3.5 years of the beast, everything he just mentioned would be finished. He didn't say at the end of the 3.5 years of the reign of the beast everything would be finished except the resurrection of the wicked, but rather that the resurrection of both the good and the bad would be finished by the end of the 3.5 years.

This does pose an interesting problem and I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

For instance in Matt 24 there is the same kind of idea with "this generation will not pass till all these things are fulfilled." What 'all these things'? It could be everything from after the Temple prophecy. Daniel asks the related question, "“How long until the fulfillment of these wonders?”" I don't yet know which wonders. Gabriel shows up in Dan 9:20 and is the narrator till the end of Daniel. So it's certain the wonders Daniel asks about begin from the 9th chapter. 

Are we to think that Dan 12:2-3 are a part of that, it's not a parenthetical? I'm probably going to refer to this a few times but I think its important:

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

Here the ones in the first resurrection do not fear the 2nd death, it has no power over them. If the righteous and wicked dead are all raised in the first resurrection then at some of the one who shared in the 1st resurrection would be under the power of the 2nd death. From Rev 20:6 this isn't possible. 

 

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

So the question goes back to what is meant by the phrase 'But the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.' 

Jesus told Caiphas that he would see him coming in the clouds of heaven..Caiphas was a wicked man and yet Jesus said he would see him coming..Jesus does not come at the end of the 1000 years...he will reign here on the earth during the whole 1000 years. Caiphas will have to be resurrected to see Jesus come in the clouds of heaven...but according to pre trib..there are no wicked dead resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. 

Revelation says 'He comes with clouds, and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him..' Those that pierced him were wicked men, yet it says they will see him when he comes in the clouds. Caiphas was not in the righteous group or he would have been coming with Jesus in the clouds with all the other saints, but Jesus said he would see him coming, not that he would be coming with him...

I have always found this fascinating beyond my ability to grasp it. I have thought somehow the dead are aware of everything that goes on in the heavens. The story of the rich man and Lazarus seems to hint at that. Jesus telling the thief paradise is just hours away is another clue this could be possible.

I mulled over the idea that 'every eye will see Him' means all those alive on earth at the time and the ones who pierced Him were condemned to walk the earth till His arrival. 

In any case the order from Matt 24 is Jesus arrives first, the nations mourn and only then the angels are sent out to gather the elect. So if the resurrection occurs only after "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."

Then the those in the graves are not going to see Him with their eyes whether wicked or righteous. This order is again shown in 1 Thess 4, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,"

And in Rev 6 it's the same as Matt 24

"Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”"

The Lord appears in the heavens first and the whole world sees Him.

That still leave the problem of 'those who pierced Him' but I don't see it to be a problem since if the Lord wishes a few people to be condemned to walk the earth for 2000+ years it will be done. Not saying it's the case, but it's possible.

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

Looking at the timeline Caiphas is resurrected and is seeing Jesus coming in the clouds. What does this mean? It means the resurrection of both the wicked and the righteous has taken place. What else does this mean? It means the resurrected saints are coming down with Jesus to Armageddon to destroy the armies of the beast and there will be a massive slaughter so that the birds of the air come and eat the flesh of captains and mighty men and the blood flows to the horses bridles...' 

What does this mean? It means ON THAT DAY that Jesus comes both the wicked and the righteous dead will be resurrected BEFORE Armageddon takes place...how do we know that? Caiphas sees Jesus coming in the clouds...Armageddon has not yet taken place but both wicked and righteous have been resurrected. So what happens to those wicked men who are slain at Armageddon? They are not resurrected until the 1000 years are finished because they were killed AFTER the resurrection of the wicked had already happened. These are the rest of the dead, who died on that day, but were not resurrected until the thousand years was finished. 

I'm still going with 'every eye will see him' means all those alive on earth at the time. 

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

This is fulfilling Isaiah 24:21-22

"And it shall come to pass in that day (Armageddon) the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth..(The ten kings and the beast) 

"And they shall be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison...(those killed at Armageddon are now in hell, or the bottomless pit), and after many days (1000 years) they shall be visited (resurrected...death and hell gave up the dead that were in them at the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years)

The picture is that all from Adam, both good and bad are resurrected at the Second Coming and judged and rewarded...this is in accordance with the wheat and the tares, the good and bad fish, and the sheep and the goats... Remember, both the sheep and the goats are judged WHEN Jesus comes and sits on the throne of his glory ON THE EARTH.

He does not judge the sheep when he comes, and the judge the goats 1000 years later...No...both are the sheep and the goats are before him at the same time...the sheep enter into life, the goats into everlasting fire.

Yes. But "When?" The idea both the righteous and wicked are raised at the 2nd coming makes the sheep and goat judgement necessary at the beginning of the reign of Jesus. I can't see it at any particular time from Matt 25 or Matt 7. I do see this in Rev 20; after the 1000 years when books are opened and the peril of the 2nd death looms.

This isn't the case in the 1st resurrection as "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them,"

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

This is also in accord with the good and the bad fish analogy...The net is lowered one time only and it is only drawn to shore when it is full of both good and bad fish..notice the discrepancy between pre trib and what Jesus said...Pre trib lowers the net one time and gets some of the good fish ( allegedly saints from Pentecost to the pre trib rapture), then lowers it again after the tribulation to resurrect the Old Testament saints, the tribulation saints, and the 2 witnesses...then lowers it again at the end of the 1000 years to resurrect the bad fish...No. The net is lowered one time and all the dead, both good and bad are resurrected and judged at the second coming...the next resurrection at the end of the 1000 years also includes both good and bad, but only pertains to those who lived and died during the 1000 years.

But there are two resurrections in Rev 20 and as far as I see only one judgement. At the first resurrection the 2nd death has no power over those who share in the 1st resurrection, so no wicked dead are resurrected there as the 2nd death would have power over them. 

I see no judgement for those in the 1st resurrection, only those in the 2nd where the books are opened and the dead, small and great, are judged according to what's in the books. 

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

The confusion sometimes happens because of misunderstanding what Jesus said when he said he will judge 'the quick and the dead at his appearing and kingdom...'

Both the quick (the living) and the dead will be judged at the second coming, but the judgment of the living is not the same as the judgment of the dead...both good and bad are resurrected and judged and rewarded at the second coming...there is no opportunity for the wicked to repent in this judgment...the goats, the bad fish, the tares are all cast into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...there is no more resurrection for them...they have gone to their eternal judgment.

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them,"

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

But back to the resurrection, it says the hour comes when ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...this is both the wicked and the just being resurrected at the second coming...the just do not hear his voice at one time, and then the wicked hear his voice 1000 years later...no...both happens at the second coming.

But it would have to happen twice then, yes? Once at the 1st resurrection and once at the 2nd. 

If only the righteous are resurrected at the 1st resurrection then that would leave the prophecy yet to be fulfilled at the 2nd resurrection 1000 year later when all the dead are raised, through hearing His voice, as described in Rev 20:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.

And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

 

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

We also see in Rev. 11:18 that at the 7th trumpet it is called 'the time of the dead, that they should be judged..' it does not say, it the time 'for the righteous dead, that they should be judged, nor does it say it is the time of the wicked dead that they should be judged...no, it says it the time of THE DEAD that THEY should be judged...it is obvious there are both wicked and righteous people who are dead...

Sure. But I don't see a definitive schedule for this. This judgement in Rev 20 is a long time coming; thousands of years. When the Day of the Lord finally arrives it's going to happen. But the Day of the Lord is not a single day, it's the Day when the Lord reigns on earth, for 1000 years. So as long as the The Lord reigns the Day is that day and the time of judging the dead is assured, at the beginning or the end of that Day.

 

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

There are many other scriptures to go into, but this is already probably too long...so we can talk more about this...

Blessings to you- Gary  

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

There are many other scriptures to look at on this subject...the wheat and the tares explicitly states let both grow together until the harvest...the harvest is the end of the age, and Jesus states this in Mathew 13 'so shall it be at the end of THIS AGE'...so he is not separating out the wheat and the tares into different time frames...as in the wheat will be harvested at the end of this age, but the tares will be harvested at the end of the next age which would be the end of the 1000 years...but it is even worse with pre trib because they break apart the harvest of the wheat into different time frames...some of the wheat gets harvested before the end of the age at the pre trib resurrection / rapture...and then the rest of the wheat gets harvested at  the end of the age, or at the last day...

Sure. Pretrib has the concept wrong. I agree. 

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Rev. 11:18 specifically states at the 7th trumpet would be the time of the dead that they should be judged and also that he would reward his servants the prophets, the saints, and them that fear his name, both small and great...pre trib has the 'church age saints' resurrected, judged and rewarded before the tribulation.

Those who reject Jesus and do not receive his words, it says he will judge them at the last day...the same last day in which the righteous are resurrected and judged..

When he comes it says he will render to every man according as his deeds shall be...not that he will render to every righteous man...but he renders to every man, both good and bad, according to his deeds.

Of course, each at the proper time. For my part I can't see past "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over"

which necessarily means there are no wicked dead here.

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

One other thing that sometimes gets confusing is that Daniel says 'many' that sleep will be raised...this is a word that has been translated 'multitudes' of them that sleep in some versions. But, depending on context, it can show the quantity of people who will be raised will be great, not that quite a few would be resurrected, but not all of them..

Looking at Daniel 12 and the idea the wonders will be fulfilled by 1335 days there is a problem. 

"Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens,b and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever."

This cannot be fulfilled in 1335 days. This is a great wonder in my mind. 

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This is also used when it says 'Jesus will be bear the sins of many..' it does not mean he will bear the sins of quite a few of us, but he would not bear the sins of others...no...it means he will bear the sins of all of us, but the word 'many' is used to convey the thought that the quantity of people will be great. This is why I tend to like the word 'multitudes' of them that sleep in the earth will awake...not that the other word is wrong, but it kind of eliminates the confusion...sometimes people do not have an issue understanding how the word 'many' is used when Paul or Isaiah says 'he will bear the sins of many,' but not when it comes to Dan. 12.

I agree. It's more poetry than prose. And even if it does mean 'all', which I think is reasonable here, especially given the nature of the resurrections where 'all' will be resurrected, I'm not seeing where 'all' must occur at the same time. 

I used to work on a farm and we would put up hay in the barn. We would put it 'all' in the barn. The next day there would be more wagons filled with hay and we would put 'all' that up in the barn as well. Day after day till the field was clean and finally 'all' the hay was in the barn,

He'll get them all. At the proper time. 

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

He'll get them all. At the proper time. 

@transmogrified

And according to Paul, the order is:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:22-24

This is the clearest, most concise summary of immortal resurrection that I've found.

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

So he is saying by the end of the reign of the 3.5 years of the beast, everything he just mentioned would be finished. He didn't say at the end of the 3.5 years of the reign of the beast everything would be finished except the resurrection of the wicked, but rather that the resurrection of both the good and the bad would be finished by the end of the 3.5 years.

This does pose an interesting problem and I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

The chronological aspect of being a part of the first resurrection is that we are in Christ who was the first to die and be resurrected and enter into immortality.  

What the angel told Daniel is actually the solution to how to understand the first resurrection.   If it was only a chronological issue it could be easily seen the way you are seeing it. The first resurrection would simply mean the righteous are resurrected first at the Second Coming and then later the wicked are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years, but understanding it in this sense places us at odds with other scriptures plainly showing that it is not WE who are resurrected first, but it was CHRIST who was first resurrected and we are just taking part in that (first) resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that has part, or shares in the first resurrection...the word 'part' is defined as:

Quote

one of the constituent parts of a whole

So he was the first fruits and then afterward those that are Christ's at his coming...but it is the same harvest...The analogy is the first ripe sheaf of grain was offered up at the beginning of the harvest and then there was the final harvest at the end of the year:

Quote

And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

 

It is  because of trying to maintain this paradigm that WE must be resurrected first that the meaning of other scriptures showing a different scenario have been altered.

 

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

For instance in Matt 24 there is the same kind of idea with "this generation will not pass till all these things are fulfilled." What 'all these things'? It could be everything from after the Temple prophecy. Daniel asks the related question, "“How long until the fulfillment of these wonders?”" I don't yet know which wonders. Gabriel shows up in Dan 9:20 and is the narrator till the end of Daniel. So it's certain the wonders Daniel asks about begin from the 9th chapter. 

Are we to think that Dan 12:2-3 are a part of that, it's not a parenthetical? I'm probably going to refer to this a few times but I think its important:

It cannot be denied that Dan. 12: 2-3 are included in the wonders...when the angel said ALL these things shall be finished, he didn't say all these things shall be finished except the resurrection of the dead...he didn't say all these things would be finished except the resurrection of the wicked...of course the angel begins to describe events before the anti christ comes into position but they will also have been fulfilled by the end of the 3.5 years of the reign of the beast...the specific kingdoms he mentioned will all come down at the Second Coming and will become the kingdoms of Christ...the time of trouble will have come to its end, Israel will have been delivered, so there is no justification of removing the resurrection of the good and the bad out of the mix no matter when the angel began showing Daniel these wonders...

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

Here the ones in the first resurrection do not fear the 2nd death, it has no power over them. If the righteous and wicked dead are all raised in the first resurrection then at some of the one who shared in the 1st resurrection would be under the power of the 2nd death. From Rev 20:6 this isn't possible. 

Yes, its not as if we are avoiding that it states we have a part in the first resurrection, and of course I am not saying the wicked have a part in it...the wicked are not in Christ so of course they would not a part in his resurrection unto life...their resurrection is unto damnation, and of course they are under the power of the second death. The problem is based on the paradigm that the first resurrection means that WE are raised (chronologically) before the wicked, but of course scripture shows the righteous and the wicked being raised (chronologically) at the same time. Its not a huge problem as long as it is dealt with...it is not hard to think Christ was the first that would rise and we are partaking of his resurrection, but as long as it is held the first resurrection means WE must be resurrected before the wicked, it forces us to disregard and alter the meanings of certain scriptures which do not fit the narrative, rather than realizing the scripture talking about the first resurrection is just as inspired as the one saying Caiphas will see him coming, and it takes all these scriptures to get the entire picture. If God wanted us to think the first resurrection means we would be resurrected at the Second Coming and the wicked would be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years he would not have told Caiphas he would see him coming in the clouds.

Like when you take  your car in to get it fixed...it might be just a small adjustment that is needed, but if the adjustment is not made, the car does not run. These are a sampling of scriptures that have to be altered to accommodate the paradigm:

1) Wheat and tares harvested at the end of this age...cannot be true...only the wheat are harvested at the end of this age

2) Good and bad fish brought up together in one net ...cannot be true...the net is lowered only for good fish and lowered again later for the bad fish

3) Daniel said all these things will finished...cannot be true..all these things must mean part of these things will be finished

4) John said every eye will see him...cannot be every eye...he must only mean the righteous and those alive at that time will see him

5) Jesus said even those that pierced him will see him when he comes...cannot be true, because they will not be raised until the end of the 1000 years

6) The hour comes when all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth...the wicked will not hear his voice at the same time the righteous...there has to be 1000 years between them even though it says the opposite...

7) Jesus said he that is ashamed of me, he will also be ashamed of him when he comes...Jesus cannot be ashamed of him until the end of the 1000 years, not at his coming

6) Jesus said at his coming he would render to every man according as his deeds...cannot be every man...only the righteous

7) Both the sheep and goats are judged at the Second coming...cannot be...only the sheep can be judged at his coming, for the goats are not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years...

8) Jesus said Caiphas would see him coming in the clouds...cannot be true for Caiphas will not be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years...

9) Timothy says he will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and kingdom...cannot be all of the dead because only the righteous are resurrected at his appearing and kingdom...

10) Revelation states at the 7th trumpet is the time of the dead that they should be judged...cannot be the time of the dead...must mean only the righteous dead, because the wicked dead are not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years....

11) The tares are cast into the fire at the end of this age...cannot be true...they are not cast into the fire until the great white throne..

12) Goats are cast into everlasting fire when Jesus comes...cannot be when Jesus comes...he must mean 1000 year after Jesus comes...

13) Bad fish are cast away at the end of this age...cannot be cast away until the Great white throne 1000 years later..

14) The wicked and slothful servant is cast into outer darkness when Jesus comes, at the same time the faithful servants are rewarded...cannot be true, for none of the wicked are resurrected until 1000 years after Jesus comes...

 

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

I have always found this fascinating beyond my ability to grasp it. I have thought somehow the dead are aware of everything that goes on in the heavens. The story of the rich man and Lazarus seems to hint at that. Jesus telling the thief paradise is just hours away is another clue this could be possible.

The analogy is one of sleeping in Jesus...although the JW's gave sleeping in Jesus kind of a bad reputation because they embraced the concept that you ceased to exist at death, it is still a valid scriptural premise that when one dies he falls asleep...Daniel said those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...Paul said God will bring those who sleep in Jesus with him when he comes...Jesus said our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go to awake him...David said I will be satisfied when i awake in thy likeness...Job said man lies down and rises not until the heavens be no more, they shall not awake or be raised out of their sleep...Even Martin Luther said when the resurrection will happen it would be like God saying to him...Martin, wake up...

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable....it cannot be that the rich man died and was in flames of torment before the day of judgment has come...the many scriptures we have looked at are showing the tares, the goats, the bad fish are not cast into the fire until the end of this age..so what Jesus said can not be construed to mean that the rich man had already died and was in flames of torment at some point in the past. Peter says the wicked are reserved unto the day of judgment to be punished...not that they are immediately punished at the moment they die...

And yes, Jesus said the thief would be in with him in paradise...and Paul said it is better that he is without the body and is with the Lord...but this does not mean in a conscious state...there are only two bodies...one is mortal and the other is incorruptible and is immortal...our bodies are not changed into incorruptible bodies until the last trump sounds at the Second Coming, and our mortal bodies return to the dust upon death...so it is only our spirit that returns to God who gave it...but this again does not mean it is in a conscious state...this puts us at odds with scriptures in Eccl. saying the dead know nothing at all...its not that we cease to exist any more than when we go to sleep we cease to exist, but when we are sleeping we are not aware of what is going on...

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

I mulled over the idea that 'every eye will see Him' means all those alive on earth at the time and the ones who pierced Him were condemned to walk the earth till His arrival. 

I don't know what you mean, by 'those who pierced him were condemned to walk the earth till his arrival...'

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

In any case the order from Matt 24 is Jesus arrives first, the nations mourn and only then the angels are sent out to gather the elect. So if the resurrection occurs only after "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."

Then the those in the graves are not going to see Him with their eyes whether wicked or righteous. This order is again shown in 1 Thess 4, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,"

I am sorry, I do not understand what you are saying in the above quote. What do you mean 'they that in the graves are not going to see him with their eyes, whether wicked or righteous?' The righteous dead have been resurrected and are now returning with Jesus to the earth to reign. The dead have raised and will see Jesus coming as he said to Caiphas....I do not understand what is preventing them from seeing Jesus.

 

 

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

And in Rev 6 it's the same as Matt 24

"Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”"

The Lord appears in the heavens first and the whole world sees Him.

 

Yes, the whole world sees him.

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

That still leave the problem of 'those who pierced Him' but I don't see it to be a problem since if the Lord wishes a few people to be condemned to walk the earth for 2000+ years it will be done. Not saying it's the case, but it's possible.

I am still not understanding what you mean here by 'condemned to walk the earth...' Those that pierced him have been dead for some 2000 years..in order for them to see Jesus they would have to be resurrected...

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

Looking at the timeline Caiphas is resurrected and is seeing Jesus coming in the clouds. What does this mean? It means the resurrection of both the wicked and the righteous has taken place. What else does this mean? It means the resurrected saints are coming down with Jesus to Armageddon to destroy the armies of the beast and there will be a massive slaughter so that the birds of the air come and eat the flesh of captains and mighty men and the blood flows to the horses bridles...' 

What does this mean? It means ON THAT DAY that Jesus comes both the wicked and the righteous dead will be resurrected BEFORE Armageddon takes place...how do we know that? Caiphas sees Jesus coming in the clouds...Armageddon has not yet taken place but both wicked and righteous have been resurrected. So what happens to those wicked men who are slain at Armageddon? They are not resurrected until the 1000 years are finished because they were killed AFTER the resurrection of the wicked had already happened. These are the rest of the dead, who died on that day, but were not resurrected until the thousand years was finished. 

I'm still going with 'every eye will see him' means all those alive on earth at the time. 

 

Yes, it says 'every eye shall see him,' but it doesn't end there..it says 'every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him...

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

He does not judge the sheep when he comes, and the judge the goats 1000 years later...No...both are the sheep and the goats are before him at the same time...the sheep enter into life, the goats into everlasting fire.

Yes. But "When?" The idea both the righteous and wicked are raised at the 2nd coming makes the sheep and goat judgement necessary at the beginning of the reign of Jesus.

You are correct...this is how it says: WHEN the son of man comes and all the holy angels with him THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory...and before him shall be gathered all people...

The righteous are resurrected, judged and rewarded at the same time the goats are...and this is on the day Jesus returns...the sheep inherit the kingdom and reign with him from that point on for 1000 years...they are not being judged throughout the entire 1000 years...no...they are judged at the Second Coming and then reign for the 1000 years...the goats are cast into everlasting fire at the same time the sheep inherit the kingdom...as it says 'And he shall say to the sheep...' and THEN (meaning immediately afterward) shall he say to the goats...'

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

I can't see it at any particular time from Matt 25 or Matt 7.

The particular time in Matthew 25 is the Second Coming WHEN the Son of man comes, THEN he sits on the throne of his glory...

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

I do see this in Rev 20; after the 1000 years when books are opened and the peril of the 2nd death looms.

Yes, the resurrection at the great white throne is for all those who will live and die during the 1000 years...the resurrection of the dead at the second coming takes care of both the righteous and the wicked up to the time Jesus returns...remember, the goats, the tares, and the bad fish have already been cast into everlasting fire, which is the second death. Of course this does not disanull the Great White throne, for even those killed at Gog and Magog at the end of the 1000 years will be resurrected and judged shortly after they are killed by the fire that comes down from heaven.

On 4/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/26/2022 at 8:40 AM, transmogrified said:

We also see in Rev. 11:18 that at the 7th trumpet it is called 'the time of the dead, that they should be judged..' it does not say, it the time 'for the righteous dead, that they should be judged, nor does it say it is the time of the wicked dead that they should be judged...no, it says it the time of THE DEAD that THEY should be judged...it is obvious there are both wicked and righteous people who are dead...

Sure. But I don't see a definitive schedule for this.

The schedule for this is at the 7th trumpet...this is the end of this age at the Second Coming when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord...it is the same trumpet Paul called the last trumpet and it is when we will be resurrected meaning the time frame is on the last day as Jesus said...the change will only take a moment in a twinkle of an eye so it will happen on one single day, called the last day.

On 4/28/2022 at 3:47 AM, Diaste said:

Looking at Daniel 12 and the idea the wonders will be fulfilled by 1335 days there is a problem. 

"Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens,b and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever."

This cannot be fulfilled in 1335 days. This is a great wonder in my mind. 

What cannot be fulfilled in the 1335 days?

On 4/28/2022 at 3:47 AM, Diaste said:

I agree. It's more poetry than prose. And even if it does mean 'all', which I think is reasonable here, especially given the nature of the resurrections where 'all' will be resurrected, I'm not seeing where 'all' must occur at the same time. 

If you have the wheat and the tares resurrected, judged and rewarded at the end of this age, then that does not mean the tares were resurrected, judged and rewarded at the end of the 1000 years...that is the end of the next age, not the end of this age...the harvest is the end of this age...the righteous are harvested at the Second coming, which is called the end of this age...to say the tares are resurrected at the harvest or at the end of the age means the same time the righteous are resurrected, judged and rewarded.

On 4/28/2022 at 3:47 AM, Diaste said:

I used to work on a farm and we would put up hay in the barn. We would put it 'all' in the barn. The next day there would be more wagons filled with hay and we would put 'all' that up in the barn as well. Day after day till the field was clean and finally 'all' the hay was in the barn,

He'll get them all. At the proper time.

Yes, he will get them all, but scripture does not say he gets the tares, goats and bad fish at the end of the 1000 years...it says they will be resurrected, judged and rewarded at the same time the righteous are as many scriptures show. They cannot be misconstrued to mean what it plainly does not say...if the sheep and goats are there before the Lord at the Second Coming, then the goats are there...if the wheat and tares are resurrected, judged and rewarded at the end of this age then the tares were not judged at the end of the next age...if the good and bad fish were gathered together in one net at one time, then the bad fish were not gathered in another net, at another time at the end of the 1000 years...
Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

On 4/28/2022 at 8:55 AM, Last Daze said:

And according to Paul, the order is:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:22-24

This is the clearest, most concise summary of immortal resurrection that I've found.

Yes, it is very clear...Christ the first fruits...not Christ and some other saints the first fruits...but only Christ is the first fruits and the only other category is 'those who are Christ's at his coming...' This is in accordance with what Jesus said that all who believe on the Son of God will be raised at the last day...' He did not say part of the saints would be raised before the tribulation and the other part raised after the tribulation...no...all the saints are raised on the last day..

Blessings to you-

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, it is very clear...Christ the first fruits...not Christ and some other saints the first fruits...but only Christ is the first fruits and the only other category is 'those who are Christ's at his coming...' This is in accordance with what Jesus said that all who believe on the Son of God will be raised at the last day...' He did not say part of the saints would be raised before the tribulation and the other part raised after the tribulation...no...all the saints are raised on the last day..

Blessings to you-

I tend to agree with you there.  But don't forget the third resurrection mentioned. Paul is giving an order of immortal resurrection for all of the human race.  Here's the passage again:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:22-24

This speaks to the entirety of humanity, the wicked as well as the righteous.  Based on that passage, there are three points in time when immortality is realized.

1. Christ, the first fruits

2. Those who are Christs - at His coming.

3. Everyone else at the end - after the millennial reign of Christ

I see the resurrection on the last day (John 6:39-40) as being the last day of Babylon, when Christ returns to destroy the kingdom of darkness (#2 above).  The last day also is a reference to the millennial reign of Christ, the day of the Lord.  Those two events take place on the same day.  Satan's kingdom ends, and Christ's begins on the same day, the day of the seventh trumpet.

 

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

This speaks to the entirety of humanity, the wicked as well as the righteous.

Those whose names were not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire...I am not sure what you mean that the wicked get immortality as well as the righteous...could you please explain...? Thank you

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The chronological aspect of being a part of the first resurrection is that we are in Christ who was the first to die and be resurrected and enter into immortality.  

What the angel told Daniel is actually the solution to how to understand the first resurrection.   If it was only a chronological issue it could be easily seen the way you are seeing it. The first resurrection would simply mean the righteous are resurrected first at the Second Coming and then later the wicked are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years, but understanding it in this sense places us at odds with other scriptures plainly showing that it is not WE who are resurrected first, but it was CHRIST who was first resurrected and we are just taking part in that (first) resurrection.

It's not the 1st resurrection in an order. It's the primary or main resurrection. It's 'of import' not the first in a series.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Blessed and holy is he that has part, or shares in the first resurrection...the word 'part' is defined as:

So he was the first fruits and then afterward those that are Christ's at his coming...but it is the same harvest...The analogy is the first ripe sheaf of grain was offered up at the beginning of the harvest and then there was the final harvest at the end of the year:

 

It is  because of trying to maintain this paradigm that WE must be resurrected first that the meaning of other scriptures showing a different scenario have been altered.

 

It cannot be denied that Dan. 12: 2-3 are included in the wonders...when the angel said ALL these things shall be finished, he didn't say all these things shall be finished except the resurrection of the dead...he didn't say all these things would be finished except the resurrection of the wicked...of course the angel begins to describe events before the anti christ comes into position but they will also have been fulfilled by the end of the 3.5 years of the reign of the beast...the specific kingdoms he mentioned will all come down at the Second Coming and will become the kingdoms of Christ...the time of trouble will have come to its end, Israel will have been delivered, so there is no justification of removing the resurrection of the good and the bad out of the mix no matter when the angel began showing Daniel these wonders...

Well that's my point. "Which wonders?" It's not all, clearly. Maybe it's Dan 11 to which Gabriel refers. 

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, its not as if we are avoiding that it states we have a part in the first resurrection, and of course I am not saying the wicked have a part in it...the wicked are not in Christ so of course they would not a part in his resurrection unto life...their resurrection is unto damnation, and of course they are under the power of the second death. The problem is based on the paradigm that the first resurrection means that WE are raised (chronologically) before the wicked, but of course scripture shows the righteous and the wicked being raised (chronologically) at the same time. Its not a huge problem as long as it is dealt with...it is not hard to think Christ was the first that would rise and we are partaking of his resurrection, but as long as it is held the first resurrection means WE must be resurrected before the wicked, it forces us to disregard and alter the meanings of certain scriptures which do not fit the narrative, rather than realizing the scripture talking about the first resurrection is just as inspired as the one saying Caiphas will see him coming, and it takes all these scriptures to get the entire picture. If God wanted us to think the first resurrection means we would be resurrected at the Second Coming and the wicked would be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years he would not have told Caiphas he would see him coming in the clouds.

But I don't think it's chronological nor can it be. Lazarus and the open graves were two resurrections before the 'first resurrection'. And from the implication of Paul here, "35Women received their dead raised to life again:"[Heb 11]  resurrections happened with some degree of frequency. 

I think it is a resurrection to life only. Paul specifies 'the dead in Christ' are raised and doesn't mention the dead 'not in Christ'. That could be just an oversight on his part and it's gap filling on my part to say the evidence isn't there so the fact of it doesn't exist, but it's also gap filling to say all the dead, wicked and righteous, are raised in 1 Thess 4, 1 Thess 5, 1 Cor 15, or in Matt 24 and Mark 13. In all these only the righteous dead in Christ are raised, no mention of the wicked dead. I could see one or two failures to include but not all of them. 

There are other ways to explain how "...every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him." apart from the resurrection of all flesh from the Fall to the Coming. First I would say Jesus arrives before the resurrection.

Matt 24:

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c 

and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

So the order here is the Sign, the mourning of the nations, then "They will see the Son of Man" then the gathering. 

So the only eyes that could see Him are the living, not the dead. 

How many nailed Jesus to the cross? Two, three? The Centurion stabbed Him. So those who pierced Him are maybe 4 or 5 people. What if they are still alive? Not beyond possibility. Also interesting is the idea the slain lamb also covered the sins of those who sacrificed the lamb. Just saying.

 

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The analogy is one of sleeping in Jesus...although the JW's gave sleeping in Jesus kind of a bad reputation because they embraced the concept that you ceased to exist at death, it is still a valid scriptural premise that when one dies he falls asleep...Daniel said those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...Paul said God will bring those who sleep in Jesus with him when he comes...Jesus said our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go to awake him...David said I will be satisfied when i awake in thy likeness...Job said man lies down and rises not until the heavens be no more, they shall not awake or be raised out of their sleep...Even Martin Luther said when the resurrection will happen it would be like God saying to him...Martin, wake up...

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable....it cannot be that the rich man died and was in flames of torment before the day of judgment has come...the many scriptures we have looked at are showing the tares, the goats, the bad fish are not cast into the fire until the end of this age..so what Jesus said can not be construed to mean that the rich man had already died and was in flames of torment at some point in the past. Peter says the wicked are reserved unto the day of judgment to be punished...not that they are immediately punished at the moment they die...

There has to be another explanation as the resurrection only occurs after the arrival of Jesus and at the trumpet call and the great shout of the archangel. The resurrection does not occur before these. So no wicked dead could be raised to see Jesus. That would have to mean they are resurrected before His arrival, which from scripture is not the case.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

I don't know what you mean, by 'those who pierced him were condemned to walk the earth till his arrival...'

Just saying it's a possibility they are alive. They didn't have to die. The all powerful Spirit can do as He chooses. Not saying this is the case but it is an explanation. 

 

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

I am sorry, I do not understand what you are saying in the above quote. What do you mean 'they that in the graves are not going to see him with their eyes, whether wicked or righteous?' The righteous dead have been resurrected and are now returning with Jesus to the earth to reign. The dead have raised and will see Jesus coming as he said to Caiphas....I do not understand what is preventing them from seeing Jesus.

Not really possible since the dead are not raised before the arrival, the trump, and the voice of the archangel. 

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, the whole world sees him.

I am still not understanding what you mean here by 'condemned to walk the earth...' Those that pierced him have been dead for some 2000 years..in order for them to see Jesus they would have to be resurrected...

Just throwing out the possibility 4 or 5 people may not have died. Even the apostles mused Jesus may have meant something similar. Just saying.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

Yes, it says 'every eye shall see him,' but it doesn't end there..it says 'every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him...

You are correct...this is how it says: WHEN the son of man comes and all the holy angels with him THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory...and before him shall be gathered all people...

The righteous are resurrected, judged and rewarded at the same time the goats are...and this is on the day Jesus returns...the sheep inherit the kingdom and reign with him from that point on for 1000 years...they are not being judged throughout the entire 1000 years...no...they are judged at the Second Coming and then reign for the 1000 years...the goats are cast into everlasting fire at the same time the sheep inherit the kingdom...as it says 'And he shall say to the sheep...' and THEN (meaning immediately afterward) shall he say to the goats...'

So you say. Jesus says, "‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. " not, "Come, reign over the nations with Me for 1000 years."

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The particular time in Matthew 25 is the Second Coming WHEN the Son of man comes, THEN he sits on the throne of his glory...

But His throne is established forever. Not one day, 1000 years and then forever. 

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, the resurrection at the great white throne is for all those who will live and die during the 1000 years...the resurrection of the dead at the second coming takes care of both the righteous and the wicked up to the time Jesus returns...remember, the goats, the tares, and the bad fish have already been cast into everlasting fire, which is the second death. Of course this does not disanull the Great White throne, for even those killed at Gog and Magog at the end of the 1000 years will be resurrected and judged shortly after they are killed by the fire that comes down from heaven.

Not really. The 2nd death has no power over those in the primary resurrection so no wicked dead there. Then, after the 1000 years the rest of the dead lived and faced the power of the 2nd death.

Gog and Magog happen after the 1000 years and it said they are consumed by  fire and it is not said they are judged at the GWT.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The schedule for this is at the 7th trumpet...this is the end of this age at the Second Coming when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord...it is the same trumpet Paul called the last trumpet and it is when we will be resurrected meaning the time frame is on the last day as Jesus said...the change will only take a moment in a twinkle of an eye so it will happen on one single day, called the last day.

Agree.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

What cannot be fulfilled in the 1335 days?

This wonder:

"Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens,b and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever.c" Dan 12

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

If you have the wheat and the tares resurrected, judged and rewarded at the end of this age, then that does not mean the tares were resurrected, judged and rewarded at the end of the 1000 years...that is the end of the next age, not the end of this age...the harvest is the end of this age...the righteous are harvested at the Second coming, which is called the end of this age...to say the tares are resurrected at the harvest or at the end of the age means the same time the righteous are resurrected, judged and rewarded.

Still can't get past: "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

So the 2nd death has no power over those in this resurrection, can't be any wicked here. Those in this resurrection are priests of God and Jesus, no wicked dead here. They reign with Jesus for 1000 years, no wicked dead do that.

If the 2nd death has no power in this main resurrection then no wicked dead are raised here. If there were then the 2nd death would have power over some participants in this general, primary resurrection. It's impossible if we stay in the text.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, he will get them all, but scripture does not say he gets the tares, goats and bad fish at the end of the 1000 years...it says they will be resurrected, judged and rewarded at the same time the righteous are as many scriptures show. They cannot be misconstrued to mean what it plainly does not say...if the sheep and goats are there before the Lord at the Second Coming, then the goats are there...if the wheat and tares are resurrected, judged and rewarded at the end of this age then the tares were not judged at the end of the next age...if the good and bad fish were gathered together in one net at one time, then the bad fish were not gathered in another net, at another time at the end of the 1000 years...
Blessings to you- Gary

Really doesn't say 2nd coming though. Scripture says, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne"

We know He will sit on this throne for 1000 years. His Throne is forever. We know "The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete."

and we know this:

Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.

And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Can't get away from the fact the 2nd death has no power over those in the 1st resurrection, and here the 2nd death has power. This isn't even saying all those before the GWT are guilty, judged guilty, convicted, and cast into lake of fire. So if that's the case then this isn't only the wicked dead, there are some found not guilty. The standard is, "IF anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life".

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It's not the 1st resurrection in an order. It's the primary or main resurrection. It's 'of import' not the first in a series.

Right...the chronological aspect was fulfilled when Jesus was resurrected in that he was the first that should rise and enter into glory..

I am sorry, but I think maybe there is a misunderstanding of what I am saying about the wicked dead...I am not saying they are in the first resurrection...they are not in Christ, so even though they get resurrected at the same time as the righteous does not mean they are in the first resurrection...so for example, a righteous person is buried alongside a wicked person and the resurrection happens...the righteous will be in the resurrection of the just, and the wicked will be in the resurrection of the unjust...because both rise at the same time does not make him in the first resurrection...remember the net...all are gathered at the same time, then the good are kept and the bad are cast away...

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Those whose names were not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire...I am not sure what you mean that the wicked get immortality as well as the righteous...could you please explain...? Thank you

This speaks of immortal resurrection:

For since by a man death came, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

There is no distinction made between the righteous and the wicked.  All die.  All will be made alive.