Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Guest choobaca]

Thanks Choobaca, your voice of reason and love is welcome. I had been reading at this thread to try to understand where the post-trib folk are coming from and was disappointed to be reading the mud slinging etc. I want to hear all the opinions and the scriptures that back the opinions. I don't have a closed mind.

On the other hand I don't think those who believe pre-trib will be suckers and fall for the anti-Christ if the rapture does not take place before the tribulation. The same Holy Spirit who brought them to the faith will guide them and lead them in the right way.

As was pointed out--no one has absolutely clear vision and understanding on the end time events ! (some think they do but...)

Hello Bro or Sis,

Thx for the kind words. I've been on many a board and I had to say this over and over again. We all tend to get so super zealous about our view, that we forget the grand picture....GOD IS LOVE.

I just posted a teaching I did on 2 Thess 2. It covers a lot of ground and I hope you will be blessed, that is if you have the same persuasion as I. If not, you will see what the postrib view believes. Any questions, refutes and or comments are always welcomed. Hech, this is how we grow, by getting in the Bible foxholes together.

And as to pretribbers.... if and when they find themselves in the midst of the great trib, postribbers will be there to help them to see that "thru much tribulation must we enter the Kingdom of God". And no matter which way it goes, none from either of the camps should ever even entertain the thought of saying "I told you so". That's way to cheap. We are to be salt and light especially to those with different views. The HS is the only one who gives the light. We only carry the torch. Let us bear it with humility.

Another thing we need to remember no matter what camp your in.......

The "Dead in Christ" are a much greater multitude than "those that are alive and remain".

It's only that last generation of Christians who are alive at that time that will go thru the trib. And many of them will be martyred for their belief.

But whether we live thru it or die in it, we are the Lord's and will belong to the greater group that are with Him, or the smaller group that awaits His Advent.

I used to get a kick out of Pretribbers telling me that "our Bridegroom loves us so much, that He would not let us go through that awful time". Yeah right....tell that to James , Peter and Paul and all the martyrs thru the ages.

Someone once said "You are not ready to live for Christ until you are ready to die for Him".

A great truth, don't ya think??

Catch Ya later,

YBIC,

choobaca

[JesusisGod2]

Thanks Choobaca, your voice of reason and love is welcome. I had been reading at this thread to try to understand where the post-trib folk are coming from and was disappointed to be reading the mud slinging etc. I want to hear all the opinions and the scriptures that back the opinions. I don't have a closed mind.

On the other hand I don't think those who believe pre-trib will be suckers and fall for the anti-Christ if the rapture does not take place before the tribulation. The same Holy Spirit who brought them to the faith will guide them and lead them in the right way.

As was pointed out--no one has absolutely clear vision and understanding on the end time events ! (some think they do but...)

Hi Ginakay,

I am not really trying to carry this on too far but if you read the whole thing, the mud slinging actually started from one person in particular, and in defense of a pre-trib stance.

I do agree that some of the things that were said by myself were not in the best of choices, but sometimes these things happen.

Paul had his differences as you see in the book of acts, and it appears that some of the differences took more than a little time to resolve.

We are human andsometimes emotions can get the best of you, I am not making excuses just stating facts.

This is the reason I have stopped responding for a while to this thread, but I have noticed that a couple of the brothers have redirected itsuch as choobaca and for this I am grateful as well.

It is a tough thing to think that maybe we are to go through this great tribulation for some. But when we think of who is on our side it makes it a whole lot easier.

I used to bea pre-tribber but I just cant justify that stance no longer, and like choobaca said, when this terrible time starts to come upon the world, we will all need each other, sometimes it takes tribulation to do just that.

But many will fall away, and not only that, they will turn those of the body of Christ over to the authorities, maybe they will think they are fanatics, I dont know, but the scriptures say it will happen.

In Mathew 24:10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another"

Now these are believers He is speaking of, those who are unprepared for the events about to take place. These will be tough times foreveryone striking fear in the hearts of men. So much so that brother will turn in brother and sister sister.

Jesus says this will happen because of the lawlessness is increased, most peoples love will grow cold.

I cant say I would blame anyone, but by Gods grace I sure hope that I am not one of them, and the only way I can be assured that I am not is to keep my eyes on Jesus, and surrender myself to Him even unto death.

God bless

Kevin

[Guest choobaca]

I used to bea pre-tribber but I just cant justify that stance no longer, and like choobaca said, when this terrible time starts to come upon the world, we will all need each other, sometimes it takes tribulation to do just that.

But many will fall away, and not only that, they will turn those of the body of Christ over to the authorities, maybe they will think they are fanatics, I dont know, but the scriptures say it will happen.

In Mathew 24:10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another"

Now these are believers He is speaking of, those who are unprepared for the events about to take place. These will be tough times foreveryone striking fear in the hearts of men. So much so that brother will turn in brother and sister sister.

Jesus says this will happen because of the lawlessness is increased, most peoples love will grow cold.

I cant say I would blame anyone, but by Gods grace I sure hope that I am not one of them, and the only way I can be assured that I am not is to keep my eyes on Jesus, and surrender myself to Him even unto death.

God bless

Kevin

Hello Kevin,

My dear brother, please be admonished as to those who fall away. It is not believers. Don't you remember, that we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We are sealed by the HS. What Jesus saves, He does not lose or cast them out. If you are Born Again, how can you get "unborn again"?

Do you see the foolishness of what you wrongly believe??

Those who fall away, are the "tares" amonst the wheat. Don't you remember that Jesus said there would be a great separation and it would be at the end or the harvest??

There are many who are professors, but not posessors. They are playing at Church, but when the "heat" is turned up, they will fall away.

Listen up Kevin and any other saint that reads this.....You are not saved today, and lost tomorrow. it is an oxymoron. Paul the Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we ARE the sons or children of God.

Be encouraged, and stand against the wiles of the devil. He just loves to see christians fearing that they might not make it. Tell him to get behind you. Pay him no mind.

Salvation means deliverance. It means it begins at point A and will be fulfilled at point B. Point B is when Jesus comes for us. Now if you are only saved from point A and never make it to point B, were you ever really saved?? Do you get my point? Salvation means, you will finish the journey. I know there are many that do not believe this and they live their whole walk in fear of loosing their salvation. How sad. Look, you did nothing to earn it nor could you. So how, by doing something can you lose it? It's a gift and you received it and God does not take it back.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Do you now believe YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM?

PTL my Brother, for so great a salvation,

YBIC,

choobaca

[rollinTHUNDER]

But many will fall away, and not only that, they will turn those of the body of Christ over to the authorities, maybe they will think they are fanatics, I dont know, but the scriptures say it will happen.

In Mathew 24:10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another"

Now these are believers He is speaking of, those who are unprepared for the events about to take place. These will be tough times foreveryone striking fear in the hearts of men. So much so that brother will turn in brother and sister sister.

Hi Kevin,

It appears that you have jumped on the wrong bandwagon. This happened on the old board as well. That's why I tried to nip it in the bud before it got to that point again on this board. It started off as one person, then it started spreading like gangrene. It's rotten fruit that will only cause division among us.

I respect those of you who choose to believe in a post-trib, or whatever stance you may take. But all it takes is for someone to start taking a scripture out of context and the next thing ya know, brethren start pointing fingers and then you have a full blown war going on. That's what someone did with the verse you quoted on the other board, and then others started jumping on. But it is easy to prove him wrong.

He claimed using Matt.24:10, that the pre-trib believers would be offended after they found out that the rapture didn't happen pre-trib as they thought it would. So they will supposedly turn their anger towards the post-tribbers. I guess he assumes they are mad because the post-tribbers were right, who knows? I said I could prove that theory wrong, so I guess now would be the appropriate time to do so.

My first suggestion would be to stick with the King James Version. Some of the newer versions really butcher scripture. Now lets compare the verse you quoted with other like verses:

KJV, Matthew 24:9-10 - "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

(10)And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another."

Mark 13:11-12 - "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

(12)Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death."

Luke 21:15-16 - "For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

(16)And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death."

As you can plainly see, post-tribbers are not being betrayed by pre-tribbers. These are natural blood relatives.

Kevin, I do respect your beliefs in the post-trib if that's what you want to believe. I enjoy talking about such things, but it can get real ugly when someone starts trying to bring division. God bless you as you seek!

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Choobaca,

I never really saidthat they will lose thier salvation and wasnt even implying that, what I am saying is that there will be those who will become decieved into evidently thinking they are doing God service.

Jesus says that many will fall away, now you cant fall away from something you were never a part of.

I may be missing something here and am definately open to correction

for it is somthing I have truble comprehending myself.

But we are human and there are some who are carnal in their walk, now if they are not walking in the strength of the Lord now, what will happen when their faith is really tested? There is a scripture that adresses this very issue, but I cant think where it is off hand, but will find it andpost it tomorrow.

But there will be believers who will not be ready for the times that are about to come upon the world. I pray that I am ready as well as my family and my brothers and sisters in Christ. But it will get tough and we wil be tested. But God is faithful.

Christ warns us in Luke 22:34 to be on guard and not weighed down with the worries of life and pleasures (dissipation) and escapisms (drunkeness) of life so that the day doesnt take us like a trap.

these are believers He is speaking to. hethen encorages us in verse 36 to be alert and pray that we may have strength to escape these things.

I also believe in osas, but this is again another topic that some like to debate and so I dont want to re-direct the thread to that topic. You have made some good points that back my position on that already anyway.

[Adstar]

Hey guys I think this thread is about pre trib rapture doctrine.

I think there are 5 or 6 threads running dealing with OSAS doctrine. I must confess I am getting sick of it.

So please guys if you want to talk OSAS there are many options available.

Sorry If I have offended anyone but this OSAS thing is just taking over the boards.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[rollinTHUNDER]

choobaca,

Greetings and welcome to Worthy Boards!

You appear to be an actual post-tribber, or one who believes he will have to endure the entire 7 year tribulation. As you can probably tell by now, some of these post-tribbers here are really not post-trib, and others may not know the difference.

Actually, it's not the post-tribbers who are worried about the pre-tribbers turning them in here. There's a hand full of what they call (post-trib/pre-wrath) who are using this thread for their beliefs as well. I can understand why, because I'm not a pure pre-tribber either, so I jump on all over the place too.

Anyway, I'm sure we will have our differences of opinion soon enough, but I am enjoying your pleasant attitude.

God bless you brother!

[Guest choobaca]

Jesus says that many will fall away, now you cant fall away from something you were never a part of.

I may be missing something here and am definately open to correction

for it is somthing I have truble comprehending myself.

Hi Kevin,

Sorry if I misunderstood you. It is so easy to do in written text only.

The "falling away", is the view from our perspective. If you remember a man named Demas who was with the Apostle Paul along with Luke for a long time. But when Paul is thrown in prison, he notes that Demas left him for the things of this world. Now you and I are never to judge another's salvation, but we are to be fruit inspectors. But in the instance of Demas, we have no word from Paul, that he knew Demas was not true. He only knew when Deamas actually split.

Now my question again......? Was Demas ever saved just because he was part of Paul's ministry for a season? Of course not. God always knew but Paul did not. We may be sitting next to someone in our pews, and never know till the heat is turned up as to what kind of metal they are made of.

Another example is Christ on the cross. The gall or sour wine was an anestetic. It was offered to Christ. It went to his lips, but He did not receive it. Someone can "taste" something, but never swallow it. I hope this answers your thought that someone has to be in something to fall away from it. Maybe I am just belaboring a point here so forgive my intrusion.

Faith may fail during the trib, but only those who receive the "mark" will have no place found for repentance.

JMHO,

Choobaca :x:

[Guest choobaca]

choobaca,

Greetings and welcome to Worthy Boards!

You appear to be an actual post-tribber, or one who believes he will have to endure the entire 7 year tribulation. As you can probably tell by now, some of these post-tribbers here are really not post-trib, and others may not know the difference.

Actually, it's not the post-tribbers who are worried about the pre-tribbers turning them in here. There's a hand full of what they call (post-trib/pre-wrath) who are using this thread for their beliefs as well. I can understand why, because I'm not a pure pre-tribber either, so I jump on all over the place too.

Anyway, I'm sure we will have our differences of opinion soon enough, but I am enjoying your pleasant attitude.

God bless you brother!

Hi Rollin,

Thx for the welcome.

Yes I am postrib but not prewrath, though I understand where they are coming from also.

I contribute to Rosenthals ministry and love his teaching except the prewrath portion. It also places the rapture in the first part of Rev 8. I asked Marv one time.....Where do you find one text that shows the "alive and remaining ones" in the heavenly scene? he could not give me one.

Their whole thrust is based upon one text...."We are not appointed unto wrath". This is true, but I believe Paul was just reiterating what the following text says..

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Now this is not the temporal wrath of God that we see poured out in the viles etc, but the Eternal wrath that abides on anyone who rejects the Son.

As far as the Trib goes, wrath is on the "earth dwellers" who capitualate to the AC. Hech, even pretribbers believe that some are going to be saved during the trib. So the wrath is not upon them. Do you see my point?

Well, we can leave this for another time.

By the way, I was pretrib for the first 6 or 7 yrs of my walk.....until....Ah, another time my Brother. I tend to ramble.

Shalom,

Frank (choobaca)

[JesusisGod2]

choobaca,Jan 6 2004, 08:29 PM

Hello Kevin,

Do you see the foolishness of what you wrongly believe??

Those who fall away, are the "tares" amonst the wheat. Don't you remember that Jesus said there would be a great separation and it would be at the end or the harvest??

There are many who are professors, but not posessors. They are playing at Church, but when the "heat" is turned up, they will fall away.

Hi choobaca,

Perhaps this analogy is correct, I will look further into it.

I do know what you are saying and maybe they will be the tares that, I am confusing here, but they are definately going to be loved ones and perhaps those who feign Christianity.

It does say that even immediate family will turn those of the faith over to the authorities. and as you say it could be tares as well as opposed to our brothers in Christ, I will definately seek God for answers.

I do however agree with adstar on the this thread is on post trib and please to any who read this, there are plenty of threads for the debate of OSAS. Although I agree with your assessment, but it will redirect this thread to something other than what was started.